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Is there any chance you could convince the R&D dept to release the source code and chip details for all the P38 electrical systems (especially the alarm and immobiliser) so we have a chance of keeping these things going once LR decide to stop supporting them?
 
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Looks to me ImperialcolleRRproject that you'll get all the feedback you need from this thread alone! And you get to keep the vouchers. I'd love one if you have one spare at the end....however as a P38 owner I don't qualify. Bugger.

It has been an amazing experience talking to you guys. One that has certainly forced me think about upping my game in future to be able to engage with such passionate and knowledgeable people.

Well, so far nobody has come forward on the research side. I'm going take Jonnyb's advice and try to speak to some of the people around Mayfair. If there are any left I will certainly be back.
 
Well, so far nobody has come forward on the research side. I'm going take Jonnyb's advice and try to speak to some of the people around Mayfair. If there are any left I will certainly be back.

Noooooooooooooooooo.

Speak to the people that actually use them away from tarmac, you know, the ones that use a Range Rover not just drive one.
 
It has been an amazing experience talking to you guys. One that has certainly forced me think about upping my game in future to be able to engage with such passionate and knowledgeable people.

Well, so far nobody has come forward on the research side. I'm going take Jonnyb's advice and try to speak to some of the people around Mayfair. If there are any left I will certainly be back.

And what will they tell you? feck all except "I need a little hook here to hang my hand bag on":)
 
The Range Rover is fine, and it should be the cutting edge of all that is technical in the world of luxury and off road ability....

My gripe is that they have cheapened the brand with needless, money grabbing, pathetic 'oh lets make a smaller, cheap car and get that skinny slag that's married to that gay footballer to do some 'design work' on it and stick the Range Rover name on it and wrench the feck outta the mugs who want a Range Rover but can't afford the real thing....'
Tell the R& D guys to retire the Evoque, and concentrate on the real thing!

Saint,
I agree with what you're saying but the 'Range Rover' Evoque's are what people want to buy, and they do sell and make LR ALOT of money !!
LR have been clever (to a point...). If the evoque didn't have a Range Rover badge on they wouldn't sell half the amount they do. Likewise with the RR sports too.
People are snobby and want to be able to say they drive a 'Range Rover'.

Will it stop Jo public that can afford a new £90k 405 buying one? No. They have cheapened the brand yes, but they sell and that's all LR care about...
 
Saint,
I agree with what you're saying but the 'Range Rover' Evoque's are what people want to buy, and they do sell and make LR ALOT of money !!
LR have been clever (to a point...). If the evoque didn't have a Range Rover badge on they wouldn't sell half the amount they do. Likewise with the RR sports too.
People are snobby and want to be able to say they drive a 'Range Rover'.

Will it stop Jo public that can afford a new £90k 405 buying one? No. They have cheapened the brand yes, but they sell and that's all LR care about...

And that is my point in a nutshell....Range Rover shouldn't be a product to just 'sell', it should be the reserve of those who will love and cherish it, those who know who CSK was, what the design philosophy was, how it was developed and what a breakthrough it was back in the day....

Let JLR sell Discos, Freelanders and the like, market them to the hilt and sell the feck out of them, but leave the Range Rover brand alone and keep it as the pinnacle of off road ability and luxury....that something special, that something that is a cut above....

Don't cheapen it just to make a quick buck, make your money elsewhere by developing and marketing the other JLR products, but leave Range Rover alone to be that finishing touch.
 
And that is my point in a nutshell....Range Rover shouldn't be a product to just 'sell', it should be the reserve of those who will love and cherish it, those who know who CSK was, what the design philosophy was, how it was developed and what a breakthrough it was back in the day....

Let JLR sell Discos, Freelanders and the like, market them to the hilt and sell the feck out of them, but leave the Range Rover brand alone and keep it as the pinnacle of off road ability and luxury....that something special, that something that is a cut above....

Don't cheapen it just to make a quick buck, make your money elsewhere by developing and marketing the other JLR products, but leave Range Rover alone to be that finishing touch.

I fully understand what your saying Ant, but (typically, not always!) it's only when they get older enthusiasts like ourselves can afford to buy them.
Typically speaking People who can afford to buy them brand new unfortunately don't love and cherish them, they just ponce around in them for a year or so then probably realise it's "a year old now, what will the neighbours think" I need a new one...
 
Most new range rover sport or Beckham fake rover owners are so highly strung a broken nail is cause to call land rover assistance.

Mind as new range rovers are unreliable expensive crap, I'd sooner buy a land cruiser
 
Most new range rover sport or Beckham fake rover owners are so highly strung a broken nail is cause to call land rover assistance.

Mind as new range rovers are unreliable expensive crap, I'd sooner buy a land cruiser

So that leads me to a question about the competition. How would you rank the following vehicles (highest to lowest) for off-road ability:

Range Rover L405
Discovery
G-Class
Porsche Cayenne
Land Cruiser
BMW x5
Nissan Patrol
Mitsubishi Shogun
 
So that leads me to a question about the competition. How would you rank the following vehicles (highest to lowest) for off-road ability:

Range Rover L405
Discovery
G-Class
Porsche Cayenne
Land Cruiser
BMW x5
Nissan Patrol
Mitsubishi Shogun

The question to ask is it a toy for new rich or work tool, local toilet hire people dumped landrover brand after years of relying on them as new discovery's are unreliable junk.

Range Rover L405 I wouldn't want after warranty ran out
That leaves G class, shogun and land cruiser as choices for reliable tool and the rest are play things for new rich.

Land cruiser for proven reliability and long term value.
Shogun next
G class I'd be concerned as newer Mercedes unreliable
Bmw x5 are unreliable and electronics in boot get drenched

I've had discovery, range rover p38 and have a 90 and 110

P38 was a pile and so are the recent discovery's for body off repairs-a joke
 
The question to ask is it a toy for new rich or work tool, local toilet hire people dumped landrover brand after years of relying on them as new discovery's are unreliable junk.

Range Rover L405 I wouldn't want after warranty ran out
That leaves G class, shogun and land cruiser as choices for reliable tool and the rest are play things for new rich.

Land cruiser for proven reliability and long term value.
Shogun next
G class I'd be concerned as newer Mercedes unreliable
Bmw x5 are unreliable and electronics in boot get drenched

I've had discovery, range rover p38 and have a 90 and 110

P38 was a pile and so are the recent discovery's for body off repairs-a joke

This is a quote taken from a review of the Land Cruiser on the top gear website from 2007:

"We're only going to get one version in the UK, and that means top-spec and V8 diesel, which is fine, as Toyota is only planning to sell about 500 in the next year to rich people who really don't like what the proles are doing to Land Rover's brand image.

Let's face it, this is the anti-Range Rover Sport - no bling, little drive-by street cred, but the big daddy to those who value getting there over looking good and who couldn't give two hoots about street racing or what the neighbours think. It's a good car. Not for everyone and the last of a dying breed, but still good."

What's your opinion of the journalist's comments in terms of the performance of the 2 vehicles?

Full article here
http://www.topgear.com/uk/toyota/land-cruiser-v8/road-test/v8
 
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This is a quote taken from a review of the Land Cruiser on the top gear website from 2007:

"We're only going to get one version in the UK, and that means top-spec and V8 diesel, which is fine, as Toyota is only planning to sell about 500 in the next year to rich people who really don't like what the proles are doing to Land Rover's brand image.

Let's face it, this is the anti-Range Rover Sport - no bling, little drive-by street cred, but the big daddy to those who value getting there over looking good and who couldn't give two hoots about street racing or what the neighbours think. It's a good car. Not for everyone and the last of a dying breed, but still good."

What's your opinion of the journalist's comments in terms of the performance of the 2 vehicles?

Full article here
Car review: Toyota Land Cruiser V8 Car Review | December 21, 2007 - road test - BBC Top Gear

Define performance, my book it is reliability and repairable, I wouldn't take any of the current range of land rovers on expeditions as they are simply fashion statements and unreliable.

Sooner have 200 or 300 tdi or even td5 defender for anything newer is an unreliable toy.

Fashion has erroded brand and as UN agree Land Cruiser the way forward.

Did my apprenticeship in landrover independent and I still like range rover classic, discovery mark 1 and defenders etc- new stuff simply would be a nightmare on an expedition- wonder how many have been repatriated if someone stupid enough to be more than 50 miles from a dealer?

Lets face it you can buy galv chassis for a series/defender and it will last a lifetime- no reason to look at newer models.

I've always wondered why the defender body wasn't robot welded unit on seperate chassis to cut down manufacturing cost- onboard diagnostic and I'd consider buying newer.
 
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How would you simplify the RR? What would you remove, what would you keep and what would you add?
ECU's are not needed for the likes of headlights, seats and so on, the ECU's that remain should not be on common bus structures so the the failure of one ECU affects many others, Saint.V8's L322 is a good example, HID lamp failure has disabled the diagnostics bus and possibly other things.
I'm all for using micro computers where necessary, engine management, gearbox and even a central body control ECU, but integrating ICE into the basic bus structures is frankly mad.
Parking sensors should be a plus cost option for those who haven't learnt to drive, same goes for hill descent control etc.
Use the money saved to introduce higher quality components.
LR is now all about image in the showroom, they don't give a hoot about what happens once a car has been sold.
You don't see the UN using LR products, army's around the world used to use Defenders, now increasingly they buy the G Waggen. Why? Reliablility.
 
ECU's are not needed for the likes of headlights, seats and so on, the ECU's that remain should not be on common bus structures so the the failure of one ECU affects many others, Saint.V8's L322 is a good example, HID lamp failure has disabled the diagnostics bus and possibly other things.
I'm all for using micro computers where necessary, engine management, gearbox and even a central body control ECU, but integrating ICE into the basic bus structures is frankly mad.
Parking sensors should be a plus cost option for those who haven't learnt to drive, same goes for hill descent control etc.
Use the money saved to introduce higher quality components.
LR is now all about image in the showroom, they don't give a hoot about what happens once a car has been sold.
You don't see the UN using LR products, army's around the world used to use Defenders, now increasingly they buy the G Waggen. Why? Reliablility.

Exactly new landrovers are disposable and body off for turbo shows contemptuous actions.

JLR now make fashion crap and there are numerous tales of warranty denials

What the established lr owners want are dependable and easy to repair vehicles- generally we don't want the beckams involved with design unless she has herself sprawled over it
 
G-Class is crap as an offroader, it doesnt have the capabilities that the older Land Rover products had and suffers from high wear and tear off road.. and it's eye wateringly expensive.

.. and also as an on roader. it used the same engine as the E class, however through the gearing, motorway use tortures the engine by overloading. Well known engine issues. From GWagonOwners Assoc.

Due to the fact that G engines are always overloaded, the condition of them is often a matter of luck. Frequent motorway use where the G is being driven fast always results in an overloaded and worn out engine.

The most reliable engines are the 280 (M110), 300 (M103), 320 (M104), 290D (OM602), 300D (OM603) and 300TD (OM606)

Many of the weaker engines like the 230, 230E (M102), the 240D (OM616) or the 300D (OM617) wear out very early, if the previous owner ran them very fast.

Even with only 100.000 km or less, an engine could wear out and die. A special candidate is the 350TD (OM603A), some owners drive it 200.000 km without experiencing any problems, but many other times the engine dies at 60 - 80.000 km. (defective cylinder head – overheating- piston seizure)

Mercedes experienced extreme problems in the S-Klasse with this engine, since very fast driving on motorways will wear the engine out very fast. That means, if you want to buy a 350 TD, you have to count on an engine problem and this can lead to a costly repair of 7500 Euro for just the engine, without installation.

In fact all G engines are too weak and have an improper torque curve for an off-road vehicle.
Buying Advice - Part 1 | G-Wagen Owners' Association

In getting back to one of the questions responded with:

JLR, in their marketing material, are focusing on the luxury of the Range Rover, its elegance and simplicity. What are they getting wrong?

Both.

They are neither simple nor elegant. if you want to have an offroad capable vehicle, it needs to be able to be worked on outside of a main dealer garage and not need recovering. On the side of a hill, in a forest, in the outback, in the african scrub.

Access to mechanics and systems needs to be available, without a body lift or a main dealer diagnostic system.

Yes, these are luxury offroad cars, but the level of comfort and luxury should not impede the capabilities or limitations off road.

Complex computer systems that can only be accessed by main dealers or mechanic that can only attended to by a well equipped garage do impede the capabilities off road. You cant simply take an offroader somewhere it will be stranded and require a series landy to assist recovery.

It chokes the brand and its very 'essence'.

Manufacturing QC is another bug.. for a luxury vehicle, the quality of componenent are crap as is the manufacting process QC.

The result is the sum of the component parts. if the parts are garbage, the end result will be garbage. No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig.

JLR have lost their way, to date, in following through on the very ethos of the brand and the product line itself.

In product development, you define your market and provide the attributes that the market requires. JLR have lost this, they have gone off half cocked at the market and provided the attributes from a separate market.

Luxury offroad market + bells, whistles and toys (bling) market = concoction

Drive computers are cool little toys for people to boast at but never take a vehicle offroad. Someone who does and is capable wants vehicle control, not 'drive by wire'

You can update a vechicle by changing the design and retaining its usability and make the engines and gearboxes more efficient and reliable but adding bells and whistles does nothing really but add toys that are prone to failure.
 
G-Class is crap as an offroader, it doesnt have the capabilities that the older Land Rover products had and suffers from high wear and tear off road.. and it's eye wateringly expensive.

.. and also as an on roader. it used the same engine as the E class, however through the gearing, motorway use tortures the engine by overloading. Well known engine issues. From GWagonOwners Assoc.


Buying Advice - Part 1 | G-Wagen Owners' Association

In getting back to one of the questions responded with:



Both.

They are neither simple nor elegant. if you want to have an offroad capable vehicle, it needs to be able to be worked on outside of a main dealer garage and not need recovering. On the side of a hill, in a forest, in the outback, in the african scrub.

Access to mechanics and systems needs to be available, without a body lift or a main dealer diagnostic system.

Yes, these are luxury offroad cars, but the level of comfort and luxury should not impede the capabilities or limitations off road.

Complex computer systems that can only be accessed by main dealers or mechanic that can only attended to by a well equipped garage do impede the capabilities off road. You cant simply take an offroader somewhere it will be stranded and require a series landy to assist recovery.

It chokes the brand and its very 'essence'.

Manufacturing QC is another bug.. for a luxury vehicle, the quality of componenent are crap as is the manufacting process QC.

The result is the sum of the component parts. if the parts are garbage, the end result will be garbage. No matter how much lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig.

JLR have lost their way, to date, in following through on the very ethos of the brand and the product line itself.

In product development, you define your market and provide the attributes that the market requires. JLR have lost this, they have gone off half cocked at the market and provided the attributes from a separate market.

Luxury offroad market + bells, whistles and toys (bling) market = concoction

Drive computers are cool little toys for people to boast at but never take a vehicle offroad. Someone who does and is capable wants vehicle control, not 'drive by wire'

You can update a vechicle by changing the design and retaining its usability and make the engines and gearboxes more efficient and reliable but adding bells and whistles does nothing really but add toys that are prone to failure.

Exactly the brand is targeted at nouveau riche especially project chav kahn.
JLR know a fool and his money are soon parted.

Build something solid and reliable- hell JLR buy a lexus and take it apart, learn from it and build to that quality.
 
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Is there any chance you could convince the R&D dept to release the source code and chip details for all the P38 electrical systems (especially the alarm and immobiliser) so we have a chance of keeping these things going once LR decide to stop supporting them?

I second this. . . .releasing the code would NOT break security, because the process used is already inherently secure.

More importantly, make the Diagnostic Protocol for all ECU's public so we can develop lower cost enthusiast tools to maintain our cars.

Pete
 
I second this. . . .releasing the code would NOT break security, because the process used is already inherently secure.

More importantly, make the Diagnostic Protocol for all ECU's public so we can develop lower cost enthusiast tools to maintain our cars.

Pete

Your plea is falling on deaf ear's at the moment, It's only 1309 hrs so our student will still be in the pit.;):D:D
 
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