Freelander 1 Finally..I've got a freelander :)

Alibro said:

Just out of curiosity what force is applied to the VCU when doing the (inconclusive) full lock test?

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A 'dynamic rotating force'
The question is not actual torque is applied as a static test is not valid - LR state a figure of X foot pounds at a rotational speed of 75 RPM Prop.
When you drive on full lock you force the VCU to slip - it is now 'slipping' in a dynamic way - the test is that you should not feel a resistance to normal traction.
The VCU is designed to pass more torque as the difference in speed increases until it reaches the 'hump mode' where it is virtually locked giving a one to one ratio.
There is a definite figure quoted by LR for a dynamic test at 75 RPM - there is no figure for a simple static load test.
The most informative (without the dynamic load test at 75 rpm which is impracticable) is to simply drive against the force of the rotating shafts and feel the difference in load at straight ahead and lock to lock which applies a far greater differential speed. It is not rocket science - a static test where you need to jack up a wheel an begger about with levers and weights ballcocks compared to a simple and far more definitive test as to vcu serviceability by applying a differential front to rear axle dynamic speed difference - ie - drive on full lock - it is simply far easier and far more accurate.

Put simply - given all we know, the OWUT is redundant.
It is FAR FAR easier and more accurate and informative to do the simple full lock comparison to straight ahead. There should not be any difference. If there ism the VCU is end of life.
Nothing could be more simple. Timings of 'load drops' are simply meaningless when all one needs is a check as to serviceability.
The check is there.
As said do both - ok - so the OWUT is 'ok (whatever that is supposed to mean) - now do the lock move test - ooooo.. tightness.. what do you do ??? say the OWUT was k so to hell with it - or - do you say - Oooooooooooooo again, this shows a tightness on lock - my VCU is suspect / ????

I suggest you would go with the second p which makes the OWUT obsolete and pointless.
Also, in reverse, if you got a 'long time' OWUT, but, the lock test was fine - do you condemn the vcu ? no way .....

The OWUT is simply not relevant .... there are other more accurate and informative tests.

The OWUT is a great thing if you are bored... but otherwise..................................... ///////


If you disagree, then agree to disagree - I am not after a huge argument here - just pointing out what I see as simple logic and physics.

Disagree ? - ok - move one

Static or dynamic makes no difference to the way the plates in the VCU pass each other.
If one side of the VCU is rotating at 25 rpm and the other is rotating at 100, there's a net difference of 75 rpm. Now if that is taking X amount of torque to maintain that speed difference, then the VCU has passed a dynamic test.
Now if one side of the VCU is held still and the other rotated at 75 rpm. The torque would still be X amount, as in the dynamic test.
Static or dynamic is irrelevant as the plates and the interaction with the fluid remains the same.
The OWUT simply scales down to torque to a more manageable value.

Anyway I don't remember LR saying that both sides of the VCU have to rotate.
From my interpretation of the test, one end is held still against a torque measuring lever and a lathe or similar is used to rotate the other end at 75rpm. That test is exactly how the OWUT works. Only the torque is small and the rotation speed is low.

Nodge68 said:

Static or dynamic makes no difference to the way the plates in the VCU pass each other.
If one side of the VCU is rotating at 25 rpm and the other is rotating at 100, there's a net difference of 75 rpm. Now if that is taking X amount of torque to maintain that speed difference, then the VCU has passed a dynamic test.
Now if one side of the VCU is held still and the other rotated at 75 rpm. The torque would still be X amount, as in the dynamic test.
Static or dynamic is irrelevant as the plates and the interaction with the fluid remains the same.
The OWUT simply scales down to torque to a more manageable value.

Anyway I don't remember LR saying that both sides of the VCU have to rotate.
From my interpretation of the test, one end is held still against a torque measuring lever and a lathe or similar is used to rotate the other end at 75rpm. That test is exactly how the OWUT works. Only the torque is small and the rotation speed is low.

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Hi Nodge, no that is not how it works, you cannot have a test designed to give a figure at a rotational speed of X and apply the same test in a static environment at about 1 RPM if you are lucky 0 it does not compute.
You have an enfineering background mate.. you cannot honestly be telling me that you can 'scale down' a rotational force in a non linear fluid ? - c'mon mate - it doesn't work that way and you know it. The torque transfer is in relationship to the rotational speed in a NON LINEAR way.. also, the system is designed to force an almost complete lock (hump mode) at a set pressure / shear force.
What you are implying is simply not relevant - there is no direct relationship between static torque and dynamic torque.
YOU know that me old mate.

Joe_H said:

Hi Nodge, no that is not how it works, you cannot have a test designed to give a figure at a rotational speed of X and apply the same test in a static environment at about 1 RPM if you are lucky 0 it does not compute.
You have an enfineering background mate.. you cannot honestly be telling me that you can 'scale down' a rotational force in a non linear fluid ? - c'mon mate - it doesn't work that way and you know it. The torque transfer is in relationship to the rotational speed in a NON LINEAR way.. also, the system is designed to force an almost complete lock (hump mode) at a set pressure / shear force.
What you are implying is simply not relevant - there is no direct relationship between static torque and dynamic torque.
YOU know that me old mate.

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I'm going to agree to disagree with you Joe.
The OWUT was born out of a need for a test that can be done at home because lots of IRDS were going bang.
The test isn't putting the VCU into hump mode. This requires a 5Hp lathe and a torque measuring lever which is beyond most Freelander owners.
The test is a way to checking to see if the VCU fluid has begun to gel, which it does over time. It has nothing to do with dynamic torque or hump mode.
It's been proven that a new VCU or a correctly reconditioned VCU will turn considerably more easy than a VCU were the fluid has begun to thicken. The older the VCU, the thicker the fluid becomes. The thicker the fluid becomes, the earlier it reaches hump mode. The earlier it reaches hump mode, the earlier it locks up. Result= one broken IRD.
Now if you can tell me that you can tell that the VCU fluid has begun to thicken by simply driving in circles then good on you. I can guarantee that most casual owners can't. What about out those of us with automatics. Those creep all on there own, at idle with little feedback from the VCU. The VCU could be transferring huge amounts of torque continually that WILL be destroying the IRD or diff, completely unknown.
This is why the OWUT was developed. Sure it's not testing the VCU's operation, but it's better than a broken IRD.

Nodge68 said:

I'm going to agree to disagree with you Joe.
The OWUT was born out of a need for a test that can be done at home because lots of IRDS were going bang.
The test isn't putting the VCU into hump mode. This requires a 5Hp lathe and a torque measuring lever which is beyond most Freelander owners.
The test is a way to checking to see if the VCU fluid has begun to gel, which it does over time. It has nothing to do with dynamic torque or hump mode.
It's been proven that a new VCU or a correctly reconditioned VCU will turn considerably more easy than a VCU were the fluid has begun to thicken. The older the VCU, the thicker the fluid becomes. The thicker the fluid becomes, the earlier it reaches hump mode. The earlier it reaches hump mode, the earlier it locks up. Result= one broken IRD.
Now if you can tell me that you can tell that the VCU fluid has begun to thicken by simply driving in circles then good on you. I can guarantee that most casual owners can't. What about out those of us with automatics. Those creep all on there own, at idle with little feedback from the VCU. The VCU could be transferring huge amounts of torque continually that WILL be destroying the IRD or diff, completely unknown.
This is why the OWUT was developed. Sure it's not testing the VCU's operation, but it's better than a broken IRD.

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Absolutely - Big + 1 on everything said.

And with this I finish on this subject.
The clever people here can argue all day quoting facts and figures but my experience from buying three Freelanders in the last two years has convinced me of the usefulness of the OWU test over the full lock test.

1st car was bought in the wet, reversed on full lock and felt no issue so happy and bought it, drove it home used it for a few days. Decided to double check and jacked up the rear wheel, I didn't do a full test with a 5kg weight etc but tried to turn the wheel with a 2 foot breaker bar and couldn't, (brakes were checked and were fine the wheel moved freely a little until the drive train stopped it), it was so tight I described it as locked solid. That may not be correct but I couldn't make it turn with a breaker bar so the description is close enough for me. So I reconned it. 105k miles on the car

2nd car was bought in the dry, tested on full lock and it felt OK, a bit tight but it was petrol and didn't stall even though I didn't touch the throttle so probably not too bad. I got it home and did the OWU test and it took 2 minutes which is 4 times longer than it should be (according to others who have tested brand new VCU's) so indicated a tight VCU. Was it too tight? Who can be sure but it felt tight when trying to turn with a breaker bar (compared to my first car after reconning it) and failed the test so I reconned. 120k miles on the car

3rd car was tested in the dry and was horribly tight to the point I nearly walked away. Got it home and did the OWU test and got a time of 3 minutes so reconned it. Then discovered the front NS brake was binding badly so now I know the original diagnoses was significantly influenced by an external factor. However I can be confident the VCU needed sorting because the OWU test was 6 times slower than it should have been and it felt tighter than the 2nd car but not as bad as the first. 110k miles on the car

If you wait until the VCU is so tight one of the wheels is scrabbling on dry ground, before doing anything about it, then I think your taking a very big risk. If the wheel isn't scrabbling over the ground but it just feels a bit tight then is it too tight or not? How can you tell? Should it stall or just bog down a bit? What does a new VCU feel like? What does a half worn VCU feel like? What does a VCU that is just starting to do harm feel like? Unless you've driven a car with a new VCU you have nothing to compare it with so all you can do is make a best guess.

I asked earlier how much force is applied to a VCU during the full lock test and your answer was a vague "A 'dynamic rotating force" but I asked the wrong question. What I should have asked is how fast is the VCU being twisted (or what is difference between front and rear propshafts)? I suspect if you were to watch the propshaft while reversing the difference would be small, so it will never reach hump mode during the reverse test either, It was never designed to reach hump mode during normal slow speed manoeuvres, so in the end both tests are checking exactly the same thing i.e. how tight is the VCU while being twisted slowly and long before reaching hump mode. The difference is the OWU test is controlled, repeatable, comparable and ultimately much more reliable.

My conclusion from personal experience of three different cars is that the Reverse on Full Lock test is at best inconclusive and at worst dangerously misleading depending on the circumstances, however in each case the One Wheel Up test gave results which were repeatable, controlled and more or less in line with what you would expect from cars with their mileage. As already stated this test was never designed to, and cannot possibly check for correct operation of the VCU as it reaches hump mode, rather is only a way of confirming if the VCU fluid has thickened up and the VCU stiffened to the point where it might harm the drive train.

Please stop telling newbies the OWU test is a waste of time, in my experience it has saved me many hundreds of pounds and could easily do so for others.

Some interesting responses and after a small delay to allow 'high spirits' to decline. I will comment. Of course you can disagree, that is what forums are for. Me gads if we all agreed it would be none realistic and pretty bland.
On a full lock there simply should be no binding at all. It is not beyond even the most inexperienced user to 'feel' a tightness - often described as 'feeling if the brakes are binding slightly' - or more in some cases.
There is nothing VCU in relation to potential damage that cannot be tested in the full lock test.
The results are pretty meaningless of the so called OWUT. An excessively tight VCU will also be felt through the 'manoeuvring on full lock' test' - so nothing gained.
There is no difference between an auto and a manual as far as a simple feeling of tightening on lock.
To add more things into the pot... Yes, I can understand that many think that the OWUT is in some way indicative of a 'good' or 'bad' VCU. - to a certain extent it will show a greater viscosity due to increased time. Is this an issue though ? - and the answer is....... - possibly - that is all. If, when tested in a moving situation (lock! there is evidence of tightness, then the VCU is at end of life and needs replacing .
All this boils down to is that it is far far far simpler to test the condition of the VCU in respect of 'potential for damage to transmission' by simply driving the vehicle forward and reverse on lock. It takes seconds, it can be done by anyone who is capable of actually doing the OWUT.
Torque on a VCU that is subject to issues is definitely - utterly - NOT linear. What happens in a slow motion test with the vehicle static is not indicative of what happens when moving. Take for example the 30x weight fluid in a vcu fitted by some - there is absolutely no way in hell that this will work effectively off road, however, it may show a 'reasonable' result in a OWUT. - this indicates that the test is not appropriate in the terms of torque linearity. A 'good range' test in a static environment does not a good VCU make. In the same way, a longer period to turn than reported by people performing this test is also non indicative of issues If the test made on lock is fine, then even with a 'long time' on the OWUT the VCU is absolutely fine.
A VCU that shows tightness on LOCK is due to be changed. A VCU that shows 'tightness on the OWUT is only of importance IF it also shows the tightness on the LOCK test. - too different things... and important ! - a classic case of where the static test fails. Also by simple math - The OWUT has to be backed up by the lock test to show a meaningful result, Hence remove the first non definitive part and you are left with the second.

We also seem to have people here who think that the expert re-conditioners of such units are in some way 'not happy about the forum no.1 sticky' due to some form of jealousy - ... this is getting into the conspiracy theory and tin foil hat stuff.....

It boils down to the simple fact that to drive the vehicle forward and reverse on full lock and feel for tightness / binding is FAR easier to do and is also definitive.... (once brake binding issues are ruled out) - but - that would also apply to the static test.
Simplicity and accuracy is the thing. It has been proven that the 'times' on the OWUT do not mean much at all. One does not have to make a guess of 'how tight' it feels on lock.. it is simply the issue that if it FEELS TIGHTER - as if the brakes were binding - then you have an issue.
Occam's razor.
If you disagree, then great. No worries. It is absolutely your prerogative. I hold no grudges.
It is though often difficult for folks to move on to something far more logical and far easier.
IMO this is a classic example of such a case. There seems to be an 'attitude' of illogical perspective in relationship to this issue. Each to their own.

I will turn off the light when I head home .

Joe

I'm going to continue to disagree Joe.
The problem with testing by driving round in circles is this. Owners do it all the time in general use and simply DO NOT notice a progressive stiffening. Then suddenly out of the blue, the IRD pinion strips or the crown wheel bearings collapse. That's the first point most owners realise there's a problem. Finding out that the VCU has progressively stiffened at that point is too late.
That is why the OWUT was first developed. No it doesn't put the VCU unto hump mode, or even simulate a real life operational scenario. However it DOES give an indication that the fluid isn't at its best any more. The owner can the make a better informed decision on the next course of action. Rather than simply sweeping bits of IRD casing off the road, while waiting for the breakdown truck.

OK fella's. Let's all take a breather.
Here's some nice relaxing stuff I filmed earlier.


Ding ding, round 4
Mike

if you want a standard stereo from an HSe, I am sure we can work out a price plus postage

Skinny Mike said:

OK fella's. Let's all take a breather.
Here's some nice relaxing stuff I filmed earlier.


Ding ding, round 4
Mike

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Lovely stuff Mike.
Where was that recorded? I'm going to the Dorset Steam Fair on Sunday, so I'll have plenty of traction engines and rollers to record

GrumpyGel said:

Glad you got one, looks like a decent motor. If you hadn't found any faults, I'd have been worried someone had sold you a Rav !

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Just reading through this thread and interestingly I actually feel my FL is like a stretched Rav4.
Mine has loads of faults though, in a ratio of about 25:1 compared to the Rav I had.

Nodge68 said:

Lovely stuff Mike.
Where was that recorded? I'm going to the Dorset Steam Fair on Sunday, so I'll have plenty of traction engines and rollers to record

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Earlier today at the Lincoln steam rally. Loads of stuff there today, really enjoyed it. Best bit was finding a red Triumph gt6 hidden away behind a traction engine with wood saw display. I was having a bit of a moment until the wife dragged me off
Mike

Skinny Mike said:

Earlier today at the Lincoln steam rally. Loads of stuff there today, really enjoyed it. Best bit was finding a red Triumph gt6 hidden away behind a traction engine with wood saw display. I was having a bit of a moment until the wife dragged me off
Mike

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I love steam and old petrol for that matter. I used to do lots of interesting stuff with Triumph GT6s and Vitesse's too. There's not much I've not done to them. That includes having a GT6 Roadster that I built do constant 13.2 second quarters at York about 20 years ago.
The worst thing about the small Triumphs was the rear diff. They shatter the diff cage, leading to noise and nastiness. It's relatively easy to cure by fitting a Quaife ATB diff. An expensive but worthwhile investment to cure that problem. Otherwise they are pretty bomb proof cars.

helijohn said:

Just reading through this thread and interestingly I actually feel my FL is like a stretched Rav4.
Mine has loads of faults though, in a ratio of about 25:1 compared to the Rav I had.

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I had two X-Trails between my first Freelander and the four I've bought this last two years and guess which had more faults? Yip all the Freelanders. Guess which broke down leaving us in limp mode only? Yip both X-Trails.
Guess which I would buy again at the drop of a hat? Yip a Freelander, never took to the X-Trails.

Alibro said:

never took to the X-Trails.

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Should have gone to Pajerosavers. Maybe it's me but I think it's the best motor Mitsy made.

helijohn said:

Should have gone to Pajerosavers. Maybe it's me but I think it's the best motor Mitsy made.

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Never had one. The X-Trails were bought for the Mrs to tow a horse box with a pony in it. I didn't fancy paying the food bills for a Pajero as well as the pony. Xtrails were up to the job but easy on fuel. In many ways they were vastly superior to Freelanders except the one important one. Character/likeability

Alibro said:

Never had one. The X-Trails were bought for the Mrs to tow a horse box with a pony in it. I didn't fancy paying the food bills for a Pajero as well as the pony. Xtrails were up to the job but easy on fuel. In many ways they were vastly superior to Freelanders except the one important one. Character/likeability

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Mine's a short wheelbase and I get around 32 mpg on a run. Insurance is prettywell inexpensive and she's built like a tank. My FL is a hobby more than a daily ride. I always liked the X trails but never got round to owning one.......almost did but that's another story.

honestly can't leave you guys alone for 5 mins can I! lol

We I'm back 900 miles round dorset and surrounding areas over the past week and the landy didn't miss a beat, ( discounting one smokey start but it is due a service )

This weekend has also included the fitting of 3 new bearmach diff mounts, in a total of 4 hours ( paying it to be done next time thats for certain!)
a bit more rust proofing where I missed last time on the rear sills and a strip down of the front brakes to discount brake binding when on full lock, pads have got about 1000 miles left in them and discs are less than half worn so back on they went with a spot of grease on the contact points in the caliper new pads before MOT time and will be putting some EBC ones in with a fluid change for good measure,

Front brake shields are well rotted so a pair of them will be sourced for when the discs are done and I'll do the lot at the same time

Binding has reduced on full lock turning right going forward but there is still some breaking effect there but has its booked in with bells nxt week for a new VCU i'm not overly worried as it's not being driven hard at all

Lowbank said:

if you want a standard stereo from an HSe, I am sure we can work out a price plus postage

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if you can wait till after the 15th when I'm paid Im sure we can do a deal, any photos? does it fit the pre facelift single din dashboard?


Steam fair was awesome, ended up spending over £100 on antiques and old stuff including a mach meter out of a canberra bomber for £20!

Just need to figure out how ti install it in something now