Freelander 1 Finally..I've got a freelander :)

Nodge68 · Aug 19, 2016

Alibro said:
Very nice and I think I agree with Mike about the looks of the prefacelift but not the ones with grey plastic though.

If mine tested OK I wouldn't bother taking it to Bells. Anything under a minute is fine in my book, anything near two minutes is bad and needs changed. In Between and you need to be thinking about it in the near future but no need to panic.
Just my twopence worth.

I kind of agree.
This is my take on it.
1.2 Metre lever with 5Kg on the end, timed from 45° to horizontal.
New GKN or Bell reconditioned VCU appears to time at ~30 seconds.
Alibro DIY recon VCU also ~30 seconds, iirc.
Old VCU up to about 60 seconds ok-ish
Over 60 up to 90 seconds, I be changing the VCU soon.
Over 90 seconds, the VCU needs removing or IRD damage is likely.

Joe_H · Aug 19, 2016

Alibro said:
Very nice and I think I agree with Mike about the looks of the prefacelift but not the ones with grey plastic though.

If mine tested OK I wouldn't bother taking it to Bells. Anything under a minute is fine in my book, anything near two minutes is bad and needs changed. In Between and you need to be thinking about it in the near future but no need to panic.
Just my twopence worth.

I would, me ol' mate, disagree.

I dont care for the OWUT - not only is it totally uninformative - -IMO it is a total waste of time... a load of bollox... - means Jack !

An accurate test (AND I do not think for one minute the so called 'CULT' OWUT is anywhere near ACCURATE !!!' )- is to simply drive on full lock forward and backwards.
I REALLY do not understand the people who try to say this is not definite. !!!. YES< you need to rule out brake binding - - but the same for the OWUT - so ignore that as a differentiator ... All this total bollox about lever arms at so may feet with so much weight ???? - what a load of old crock -I mean , seriously ???

It is REALLY simple - full lock, forward and reverse - any binding that is not brakes - VCU has issues - that is it - no need for any of the totally ridiculous OWUT....

I fail to understand why any logical and reasonably intelligent person would chose the static and hence non conclusive OWUT over the FAR FAR easier to perform and FAR FAR more accurate drag at full lock test - it is absolutely simple to perform - it IS accurate providing the brakes are not an issue ... It IS a real DYNAMIC moving test.
WTF would any person want to bugger about with the obsolete and irrelevant OWUT - too much forum hype and sheep mentality when you can simply do a quick forward and reverse lock test without all the BS.
AND the results of the lock test are realistic, the so called OWUT is a best guess. The REAL OWUT is to do it, then do the lock test and feel for drag, then - apply logic, which dictates that the OWUT is superfluous ..... hence - the lock and drag....
SO much BS on the forums - it has now achieved almost folk lore status... a sad reflection on society and sheep. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Joe_H · Aug 19, 2016

Nodge68 said:
I kind of agree.
This is my take on it.
1.2 Metre lever with 5Kg on the end, timed from 45° to horizontal.
New GKN or Bell reconditioned VCU appears to time at ~30 seconds.
Alibro DIY recon VCU also ~30 seconds, iirc.
Old VCU up to about 60 seconds ok-ish
Over 60 up to 90 seconds, I be changing the VCU soon.
Over 90 seconds, the VCU needs removing or IRD damage is likely.

Totally irrelevant mate - The test is static - not dynamic.
It is FAR FAR FAR easier to do the lock bind test,. I really fail to understand the hype about a test that means Jack

It is Soooooooooooooooooooooo much easier to do a REAL test that actually does a dynamic test.... Honestly, it is a simple case of herd of sheep...

Alibro · Aug 19, 2016

Joe_H said:
I would, me ol' mate, disagree.

I dont care for the OWUT - not only is it totally uninformative - -IMO it is a total waste of time... a load of bollox... - means Jack !

An accurate test (AND I do not think for one minute the so called 'CULT' OWUT is anywhere near ACCURATE !!!' - is to simply drive on full lock forward and backwards.
I REALLY do not understand the people who try to say this is not definite. !!!. YES< you need to rule out brake binding - - but the same for the OWUT - so ignore that as a differentiator ... All this total bollox about lever arms at so may feet with so much weight ???? - what a load of old crock -I mean , seriously ???

It is REALLY simple - full lock, forward and reverse - any binding that is not brakes - VCU has issues - that is it - no need for any of the totally ridiculous OWUT....

I fail to understand why any logical and reasonably intelligent person would chose the static and hence non conclusive OWUT over the FAR FAR easier to perform and FAR FAR more accurate drag at full lock test - it is absolutely simple to perform - it IS accurate providing the brakes are not an issue ... It IS a real DYNAMIC moving test.
WTF would any person want to bugger about with the obsolete and irrelevant OWUT - too much forum hype and sheep mentality when you can simply do a quick forward and reverse lock test without all the BS.
AND the results of the lock test are realistic, the so called OWUT is a best guess. The REAL OWUT is to do it, then do the lock test and feel for drag, then - apply logic, which dictates that the OWUT is superfluous ..... hence - the lock and drag....
SO much BS on the forums - it has not achieved folk lore status... a sad reflection on society and sheep. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

My reason for not trusting the full lock, forward backward test is that in my case it didn't work. I test drove a car, full lock, forwards and backwards no bother. Petrol car, no accelerator and it seemed fine so I bought it, did the one wheel up test and found the VCU was locked solid.
Why did it not work, on reflection several reasons, the road was wet, the tyres were AT so crap, I didn't know what it should feel like, there may have been gravel on the road.
Take your pick of the above but in my case the full lock test failed totally whereas the OWU test (which is really just a test to check how much torque is required to turn the VCU under controlled (if less than ideal) conditions told me the VCU was stuffed.
Sorry mate but I think your 100% wrong on this one.

Joe_H · Aug 19, 2016

Alibro said:
My reason for not trusting the full lock, forward backward test is that in my case it didn't work. I test drove a car, full lock, forwards and backwards no bother. Petrol car, no accelerator and it seemed fine so I bought it, did the one wheel up test and found the VCU was locked solid.
Why did it not work, on reflection several reasons, the road was wet, the tyres were AT so crap, I didn't know what it should feel like, there may have been gravel on the road.
Take your pick of the above but in my case the full lock test failed totally whereas the OWU test (which is really just a test to check how much torque is required to turn the VCU under controlled (if less than ideal) conditions.
Sorry mate but I think your 100% wrong on this one.

Hi Mate, the VCU will never 'lock solid' (you were dreaming) - it does not happen ! - also, the forward lock and reverse lock will test the vcu dynamically.
You simply CANNOT have a 'locked' vcu that performs a forward / reverse lock test - Simply impossible - it is not difficult to find a dry piece of road. - end of

Honestly - so much hype about a simple test that really does not work unless you are moving.. The OWUT is 'not appropriate' - that is putting it mildly...

AND, I am absolutely 100 % correct...... sorry - but.....

Alibro · Aug 19, 2016

Joe_H said:
Hi Mate, the VCU will never 'lock solid' (you were dreaming) - it does not happen ! - also, the forward lock and reverse lock will test the vcu dynamically.
You simply CANNOT have a 'locked' vcu that performs a forward / reverse lock test - Simply impossible - it is not difficult to find a dry piece of road. - end of

Honestly - so much hype about a simple test that really does not work unless you are moving.. The OWUT is 'not appropriate' - that is putting it mildly...
AND, I am absolutely 100 % correct...... sorry - but.....

Having cut open and reconditioned 2 VCU's now I feel I am fairly well qualified to comment on this one. They are exceedingly unlikely to ever get to the stage of being 'totally locked up' as the drive train will probably have gone bang before this happens. I'll agree with that, but they can get very very stiff which in my book is close enough. The fluid in them becomes like glue therefore the outcome is very close to being locked up.
Sorry mate. Your wrong.

Nodge68 · Aug 19, 2016

Joe_H said:
I would, me ol' mate, disagree.

I dont care for the OWUT - not only is it totally uninformative - -IMO it is a total waste of time... a load of bollox... - means Jack !

An accurate test (AND I do not think for one minute the so called 'CULT' OWUT is anywhere near ACCURATE !!!' )- is to simply drive on full lock forward and backwards.
I REALLY do not understand the people who try to say this is not definite. !!!. YES< you need to rule out brake binding - - but the same for the OWUT - so ignore that as a differentiator ... All this total bollox about lever arms at so may feet with so much weight ???? - what a load of old crock -I mean , seriously ???

It is REALLY simple - full lock, forward and reverse - any binding that is not brakes - VCU has issues - that is it - no need for any of the totally ridiculous OWUT....

I fail to understand why any logical and reasonably intelligent person would chose the static and hence non conclusive OWUT over the FAR FAR easier to perform and FAR FAR more accurate drag at full lock test - it is absolutely simple to perform - it IS accurate providing the brakes are not an issue ... It IS a real DYNAMIC moving test.
WTF would any person want to bugger about with the obsolete and irrelevant OWUT - too much forum hype and sheep mentality when you can simply do a quick forward and reverse lock test without all the BS.
AND the results of the lock test are realistic, the so called OWUT is a best guess. The REAL OWUT is to do it, then do the lock test and feel for drag, then - apply logic, which dictates that the OWUT is superfluous ..... hence - the lock and drag....
SO much BS on the forums - it has now achieved almost folk lore status... a sad reflection on society and sheep. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

I disagree Joe. The only correct way to test a VCU is a measured torque test. Simply driving round in circles on full lock is worthless. There's no science to it and there are far to many variables for it to be any good.
The VCU resists rotation of the plates inside the unit. The resistance increases with the torque applied and with time it's applied over. Drive slowly and the torque will be X. Drive a fraction faster and the torque will change to Y. I'm sorry but driving in circles is just to hit and miss.
The OWUT works by applying a known torque and measuring the time. Sorry but it's been proven time and time again. Freelanders that have past the circle driving test have had failed IRDs.

Alibro · Aug 19, 2016

Joe_H said:
Hi Mate, the VCU will never 'lock solid' (you were dreaming) - it does not happen ! - also, the forward lock and reverse lock will test the vcu dynamically.
You simply CANNOT have a 'locked' vcu that performs a forward / reverse lock test - Simply impossible - it is not difficult to find a dry piece of road. - end of

Honestly - so much hype about a simple test that really does not work unless you are moving.. The OWUT is 'not appropriate' - that is putting it mildly...
AND, I am absolutely 100 % correct...... sorry - but.....

From what I've read you were bitten by a cowboy who put something a bit like VCU fluid in your reconned unit but not quite. It passed the OWU test in that it wasn't overly stiff but didn't perform as a VCU.
This would be a good case for saying the OWU test can tell you if your VCU is about to kill your drive train but not necessarily if it will perform as a VCU. That I will agree with but to say it is a worthless test suggests you don't fully understand what is happening when doing it.
I'm afraid your guilty of throwing the baby out with the bath water here.

And as for dry tarmac, have you ever been to Ireland.

GrumpyGel · Aug 19, 2016

Joe_H said:
AND, I am absolutely 100 % correct...... sorry - but.....

Your're obviously quite aware and knowledgable about things Joe - but this is one of those times where you are absolutely 100% correct - but wrong.

I don't know how many beer's you've had to make your normally antagonistic replies even more so - but best not post if you're ****ed.

BB will be twitching.

Joe_H · Aug 19, 2016

GrumpyGel said:
Your're obviously quite aware and knowledgable about things Joe - but this is one of those times where you are absolutely 100% correct - but wrong.

I don't know how many beer's you've had to make your normally antagonistic replies even more so - but best not post if you're ****ed.

BB will be twitching.

Ain't had no beers

- a 'measured 'static' - more or less - torque' test is simply and utterly 'nonsensical' - where and HOW does this measure anything of relevance to a - rotating unit ? - errr - it does not.
Sorry, but you can agree to disagree, that is fine, but the OWUT is simply and utterly pointless / meaningless when you have a FAR FAR FAR easier and MUCH more meaningful test that gives you a result that takes seconds to do - without jacking up the vehicle - (that is simply a joke),.

So, if you stalwarts of the incredibly wrong and utterly pointless OWUT get a 'good' reading - then, you do a more sensible and realistic lock test, and you find the lock test is an issue where the OWUT is - apparently not !!!!- which do you decide upon ? - yes - of course - - anyone with any sense goes for the lock test !///

So why not stop buggering about with pointless OWUT's because some BS on a forum entices you to - rather than do a simple, quick, easy and informative dynamic test ? THERE IS SIMPLY NO EXCUSE IT IS BS !!!!!!!

I am amazed at the sheep mentality - sorry but.. I is simple illogical in a mechanical sense when you compare one test to the other.

You can argue all day if you wish, Or, you can agree to disagree if you are failing to understand. No worries here

Alibro · Aug 19, 2016

Joe_H said:
Ain't had no beers - a 'measured torque' test is simply 'nonsensical' - where and HOW does this measure anything of relevance to a rotating unit ? - errr - it does not.

Joe, that is exactly what the OWU test does. If you look under the car as the test is happening you can see the VCU turning.
Or more accurately you can see the rear section of the prop shaft turning and therefore the rear section of the VCU.

Nodge68 · Aug 19, 2016

The official LR test is a torque test Joe. They made the thing so they sure as hell know how to test it. I can't remember the figures of the top of my, but it's something like 400Nm at 25RPM. That is a torque over time test. Exactly the same as an engine is tested, torque over time. You cannot tell how powerful an engine is by driving in circles and you can't tell if the VCU is stuffing up your IRD by the same method.

Joe_H · Aug 19, 2016

Alibro said:
Joe, that is exactly what the OWU test does. If you look under the car as the test is happening you can see the VCU turning.

Hi Mate

No, it does not, it measure a static force against a fixed object - not a rotating force of differing magnitude,
It really really is simple to do. Look at both tests ! - I am sorry If I offend anyone, however, the very very simple lock move test is FAR more informative as you have a differential rotating object with force applies and implied at both 'ends' .
WHY the fek are people trying to 'defend' a totally inadequate test (the OWUT) when it is far more useful, far more informative and far far easier to do and to repeat the lock drag test. there is no contest.
The OWUT has been superseded with simple 'o level' logic - - end of.................

- pointless dragging it out - it is simply not valid when other tests rule it a non entity.
Joe

Joe_H · Aug 19, 2016

Nodge68 said:
The official LR test is a torque test Joe. They made the thing so they sure as hell know how to test it. I can't remember the figures of the top of my, but it's something like 400Nm at 25RPM. That is a torque over time test. Exactly the same as an engine is tested, torque over time. You cannot tell how powerful an engine is by driving in circles and you can't tell if the VCU is stuffing up your IRD by the same method.

I agree with the basic description of the test Nodge, However, the LR test is a rotating dynamic test at (IIRK) 75 rpm shaft - that is COMPLETELY different to a OWUT and - strangely enough - very similar to a driving on lock test where both shafts are in motion.
Thanks for confirming my observations

Alibro · Aug 19, 2016

Put em up! common Put em up, I'll tear ya limb from limb.

Grrrrrrrr.

Nodge68 · Aug 19, 2016

It makes no difference which end of the VCU is rotating for the test to be valid. As long as one set of plates pass the other set of plates, torque will be applied across it.

Joe_H · Aug 19, 2016

Alibro said:
Put em up! common Put em up, I'll tear ya limb from limb.

Grrrrrrrr.

ARTHUR: The Castle Aggh. Our quest is at an end! God be praised! Almighty God, we thank Thee that Thou hast vouchsafed to us the most holy-[twong baaaa] Jesus Christ!

GUARD: 'Allo, daffy English kniggets and Monsieur Arthur-King, who has the brain of a duck, you know! So, we French fellows out-wit you a second time!

ARTHUR: How dare you profane this place with your presence!? I command you, in the name of the Knights of Camelot, to open the doors of this sacred castle, to which God himself has guided us!

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ARTHUR: In the name of the Lord, we demand entrance to this sacred castle!

GUARD: No chance, English bedwetting types. I burst my pimples at you and call your door opening request a silly thing. You tiny-brained wipers of other people's bottoms!

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GUARD: Yes, depart a lot at this time and cut the approaching any more or we fire arrows at the tops of your heads and make castanets out of your testicles already! Ha ha!

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Alibro · Aug 19, 2016

Joe_H said:
Hi Mate
No, it does not, it measure a static force against a fixed object - not a rotating force of differing magnitude,
It really really is simple to do. Look at both tests ! - I am sorry If I offend anyone, however, the very very simple lock move test is FAR more informative as you have a differential rotating object with force applies and implied at both 'ends' .
WHY the fek are people trying to 'defend' a totally inadequate test (the OWUT) when it is far more useful, far more informative and far far easier to do and to repeat the lock drag test. there is no contest.
The OWUT has been superseded with simple 'o level' logic - - end of................. - pointless dragging it out - it is simply not valid when other tests rule it a non entity.
Joe

Just out of curiosity what force is applied to the VCU when doing the (inconclusive) full lock test?

Joe_H · Aug 19, 2016

Nodge68 said:
It makes no difference which end of the VCU is rotating for the test to be valid. As long as one set of plates pass the other set of plates, torque will be applied across it.

Yes, if you do it at 75 RPM (A dynamic test! )- err, sorry, not possible with OWUT Nodge...
Joe

Nodge68 · Aug 19, 2016

Joe_H said:
Yes, if you do it at 75 RPM (A dynamic test! )- err, sorry, not possible with OWUT Nodge...
Joe

There's no need to do the test at 75 rpm because the torque that the OWUT applies isn't anything like the 400Nm the LR test uses. Less torque = lower test speed. It's the same test, just reduced in torque and increased in time. It's much less hit and miss than simply driving round in circles, applying god only knows how much torque through the drive train.

Freelander 1 Finally..I've got a freelander :)

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