ECU Problems :(

Brown said:

I expect that we'll see more and more of these problems as the supply of ECUs ages. After all, that model was discontinued 14 or 15 years ago, and you'd be lucky if any other electronic equipment of that vintage was still reliable. I've broken down more often a a result of ECU problems than I've had flat tyres. Currently I have two duff ECUs and one working one. One of the duff ones was previously repaired by that firm that @raywin and I have tried, which offers a lifetime guarantee, so I'll send it back to them and see if I can get them to look at it again under warranty. Yes, topside switch failure errors are apt to be capacitor related in my experience. The other thing that a failing ECU can give you is 'peak charge' errors, but these can also arise as a result of an injector loom which is on the way out.

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That is something I have tought about the life of these ECUs must be limited and then the vehicle becomes a dud, wonder if some genius will fins a way to replace them with raspberr pi or similar.

I'm coming very late to this conversation, but going back to some of the earlier posts, the errors concerning the tachometer and gearbox are ones I always get too (on all the ECUs), and I put this down to the fact that the Defender doesn't have a tacho or automatic gearbox. Interestingly, although I fitted a tachometer that takes a feed from one of the pins on the ECU, I still get the tacho error. So the one in the Discovery must be wired differently. Similarly with the ABS, mine's not got this so it's just showing you that it's noticed it's not connected.

The array of peak charge errors in @eprothe's post 7 are very similar to what I get from one of my duff ECUs. On starting, the engine will clatter roughly for a moment or two and emit smoke, but that's all.

Just to add to the comments about the relationship between the ECU and the 10AS, on my Nanocom, the critical action to get them talking to each other is under the 'utilities' option under the engine menu and it says something like 'learn security code' and then when you do so it tells you to turn the ignition off and on again. I spent ages looking for it under the 10AS menus but it wasn't there! Of course, the configuration of the Foxwell machine may be different.

Hi Brown,

thanks very much for your input - all very helpful and encouraging in terms of the symptoms matching the cause I'm going for.

The Foxwell code reader I've got is nowhere near clever enough to recode ECUs, injectors or 10AS modules - if it comes to that, I'll have to take everything to a garage with a nanocom or equivalent...

The idea of replacing an ECU with an R-Pi or similar is certainly an interesting one. Having now played about with mine via the Foxwell and found that the ECU is really only looking at a dozen or so sensors to manage the engine, building something to read the inputs and generate the necessary outputs wouldn't really be that hard at all. I've got an old Citroen Dispatch with a failed speedo sensor that can only be repaired by opening the gearbox; unfortunately, the sensor signal not only drives the speedo, but also supplies vehicle speed to the ECU so, when it failed, the fuel and air mapping was all wrong and the van became undrivable. To fix it, I spliced an Arduino into the ABS signal coming back from one of the front wheels, acting as basically a frequency converter, to produce the speed signal to the speedo and the ECU. It's been like that for about three years now, so low-cost, consumer micro-controllers are certainly a viable solution. The really tricky bit with a full ECU, I would think, would be developing the functions to get the fuel/air mapping right - it'd be quite an effort to figure it out from first principles!

Another project for another day, I feel

eprothe said:

Hi Brown,

thanks very much for your input - all very helpful and encouraging in terms of the symptoms matching the cause I'm going for.

The Foxwell code reader I've got is nowhere near clever enough to recode ECUs, injectors or 10AS modules - if it comes to that, I'll have to take everything to a garage with a nanocom or equivalent...

The idea of replacing an ECU with an R-Pi or similar is certainly an interesting one. Having now played about with mine via the Foxwell and found that the ECU is really only looking at a dozen or so sensors to manage the engine, building something to read the inputs and generate the necessary outputs wouldn't really be that hard at all. I've got an old Citroen Dispatch with a failed speedo sensor that can only be repaired by opening the gearbox; unfortunately, the sensor signal not only drives the speedo, but also supplies vehicle speed to the ECU so, when it failed, the fuel and air mapping was all wrong and the van became undrivable. To fix it, I spliced an Arduino into the ABS signal coming back from one of the front wheels, acting as basically a frequency converter, to produce the speed signal to the speedo and the ECU. It's been like that for about three years now, so low-cost, consumer micro-controllers are certainly a viable solution. The really tricky bit with a full ECU, I would think, would be developing the functions to get the fuel/air mapping right - it'd be quite an effort to figure it out from first principles!

Another project for another day, I feel

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.
I did notice the new micro controller from R pi at a very reasonable price, it starts to open new doors

But as you say one thing at a time.

With some engines that are popular with customizers and kit car enthusiasts there's a whole variety of aftermarket control equipment and software available. Those LS Series engines from General Motors being a case in point. Unfortunately, the TD5 engine has never been popular with performance enthusiasts or the motorsports fraternity for some reason. I can't imagine why. So whilst some people offer remaps, you're still using the same basic circuit boards as the engines came with, the majority of which are now over 15 years old.

Another update...

Despite a lot of searching, I couldn't find PEH169 capacitors for sale anywhere...and to be honest, they'd be such old stock, I wouldn't trust the dielectric not to have dried out by now, anyway. On the basis that a capacitor is a capacitor is a capacitor (except when they aren't...but mostly they are), I ordered two replacements based on the capacity and operating Voltages of the old RIFA ones:



As you can see, they don't have mounting studs, nor do they have screw-terminals, so some modifications were required:



This seemed like a good idea at the time - the eyelets would use the same bolts as the old capacitors; I just had to find appropriately sized nuts:



As you can see, the new capacitors are much smaller - they're still polarised, though, so I had to mount them the right way round (double checked that about a hundred times while I fitted them!). Reading on the internet suggests dielectric materials have improved a lot in the last 20-30 years, meaning smaller capacitors are possible, hence the reduce size. The wires I'd soldered onto the capacitors were too long and the eye connectors were also too long to fit above the PCB, so I had to bend them and the legs of the capacitors, which wasn't ideal. Fortunately, nobody will ever know, as they'll be hidden inside the ECU... To make up for the lack of mounting stud, I used the tried and tested engineering solution of hot-glue to stop the capacitors vibrating against the PCB and causing damage.

It was -8C here this morning with 5cm of snow on the ground, so I wasn't keen to go out and test the new, improved ECU but, by 16:00, it was a balmy -1.5C, so there was no excuse not to try it. I put the lid on the ECU loosely, bolted the ECU itself into the Defender, wired it up and turned the key...

[imagine a picture of a Defender with smoke coming out of its exhaust]

I took a picture as proof it at least started, but I seem to have lost it. Anyway, after some coughing and reluctance, the engine started and ran nicely. I revved the engine and it behaved - no stalling or engine light coming on. I left it running for half an hour and, when I came back, it was still running and still revved - if there'd been a driver's seat, I'd have tried moving it!

So, is it fixed? Who knows - it's yet to exhibit the previous fault is all I can say for sure. Can you crack open an ECU, attack it with a soldering iron and still have it work at the end of the day? Seemingly, yes, but time will tell... I'm not going to say "Ha! Saved myself three hundred quid there with just a fivers worth of capacitors off ebay!" just yet, because that would obviously be tempting fate, but I'll post an update on continued success or abject failure in due course...

Next jobs are:
Clear the ECU codes, run the engine and check them again for anything nasty.
Re-seal the ECU and bolt it back in under the seat.
Strip out the CKS sensor cable bypass I went to all the effort of fitting and put the CKS sensor back on the loom connector.
Refit the driver's seat.
Get in, drive about and either feel smug or sit in a layby waiting for the AA again, rolling my eyes and thinking "hmm, wasn't that, then..."

Watch this space, as they say

That all seems to have turned out well. Who would have guessed that a couple of capacitors would sort it out. In fact it looks so straightforward I might try it on one of my broken ECUs. You've even conveniently included the capacity of the capacitors in one of the photos so I know what to buy.

In other news, this week I contacted ECU Testing about their guarantee, and they agreed to take the ECU back for testing. Even sent a DPD parcels man round to collect it so I didn't need to post it. Then they told me they'd fixed it and sent it back. It arrived on Saturday morning so I put it in the car, which then wouldn't start. Ah, maybe it's out of sync with the immobilizer. I did the 'learn security code' procedure, and it still wouldn't go. I looked at the error codes and I see we now have 'topside switch failed' as well as it registering open circuit on all injectors. The car will start and run fine on the other ECU, so I'm pretty sure it's not wiring or sensor faults. I'll call them again on Monday and see if they can have another look at it.

Oh, and by the way, that airflow logged low error might be a faulty airflow device or MAF as they're sometimes called.
There's a story about it here: https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/low-air-intake.186569/ which is useful because somebody tells you how to test the wiring too.

Fascinating!
I understood 10 tenths of fuck all about it except that a number of electrical items I have had to fix recently, the fault was the capacitor.

The bloody things should come with govt health warnings!

eprothe said:

Another update...

So, is it fixed? Who knows - it's yet to exhibit the previous fault is all I can say for sure. Can you crack open an ECU, attack it with a soldering iron and still have it work at the end of the day? Seemingly, yes, but time will tell... I'm not going to say "Ha! Saved myself three hundred quid there with just a fivers worth of capacitors off ebay!" just yet, because that would obviously be tempting fate, but I'll post an update on continued success or abject failure in due course...


Get in, drive about and either feel smug or sit in a layby waiting for the AA again, rolling my eyes and thinking "hmm, wasn't that, then..."

Watch this space, as they say

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Think you could be inundated with requests to look at fellow members ECU's if this fix works, given the no of landy's out there could be a nice little sideline or a new biz oppotunity.....lol

Yep - if that's really fixed it, then it's very satisfying

The capacitors required are: 3300uF, 40V and 1000uF, 100V.

Capacitors tend to fail, in my experience, because they're one of the few solid-state components which degrade with age. The mode of operation tends to accelerate that in some applications, too - capacitors in power-supplies are often working at high frequency (e.g. 15~30kHz), which shortens their lives - this is why flat-screen TVs and computer power-supplies tend to pop. I've heard there's money to be made scavenging dead TVs from recycling centres, swapping out the dead capacitors and selling the now working TV on ebay...not all capacitors are as easy to replace as the ones in this ECU were, though.

I think, also, if it turns out these capacitors have fixed my problem, I've been quite lucky. If anything else fails inside the ECU (there are at least three other capacitors soldered to the PCB, which will probably fail at some point), then it's all pretty much non-fixable. You really can't de-solder ICs or other surface-mount stuff unless you do it for a living or you've prioritised soldering skills over "getting out much"... I suppose that's why companies charge £200+ for ECU repair - some customers, whose ECUs can be fixed with a couple of cheap capacitors, are inevitably subsidising others, who need a complete replacement...

Oh yes - I found the missing photo:


Cold, cold, cold

eprothe said:

Yep - if that's really fixed it, then it's very satisfying

The capacitors required are: 3300uF, 40V and 1000uF, 100V.

Capacitors tend to fail, in my experience, because they're one of the few solid-state components which degrade with age. The mode of operation tends to accelerate that in some applications, too - capacitors in power-supplies are often working at high frequency (e.g. 15~30kHz), which shortens their lives - this is why flat-screen TVs and computer power-supplies tend to pop. I've heard there's money to be made scavenging dead TVs from recycling centres, swapping out the dead capacitors and selling the now working TV on ebay...not all capacitors are as easy to replace as the ones in this ECU were, though.

I think, also, if it turns out these capacitors have fixed my problem, I've been quite lucky. If anything else fails inside the ECU (there are at least three other capacitors soldered to the PCB, which will probably fail at some point), then it's all pretty much non-fixable. You really can't de-solder ICs or other surface-mount stuff unless you do it for a living or you've prioritised soldering skills over "getting out much"... I suppose that's why companies charge £200+ for ECU repair - some customers, whose ECUs can be fixed with a couple of cheap capacitors, are inevitably subsidising others, who need a complete replacement...

Oh yes - I found the missing photo:
View attachment 229829

Cold, cold, cold

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Thats exelent news I hope it keeps on working, I agree with @Cavey_P38 you might have a profitable sidline here, there are many TD5s arround and an ever decreasing number of ECUs like you I bet many of these are due to capacitors. maybe we need a modification to the board to make the capacitor a plug in easy change item.

Yes, they charge a flat rate and some might just need a dab of solder on a dry joint, some might want the odd capacitor, whereas others may need a complete rebuild, so they charge a rate that enables them to make a living overall.
Somebody with a 3D printer could make a little cradle to hold those capacitors which attaches to the existing tabs on the board. Or maybe cunningly conceal a modern capacitor in a vintage casing, a bit like those alternators you can get for classic cars that are made in the shape of an old-fashioned dynamo.

ECU Testing has agreed to have another look at my warrantied ECU and will send a DHL driver round to pick it up. So we'll see if it can be fixed on the second attempt.

Brown said:

Yes, they charge a flat rate and some might just need a dab of solder on a dry joint, some might want the odd capacitor, whereas others may need a complete rebuild, so they charge a rate that enables them to make a living overall.
Somebody with a 3D printer could make a little cradle to hold those capacitors which attaches to the existing tabs on the board. Or maybe cunningly conceal a modern capacitor in a vintage casing, a bit like those alternators you can get for classic cars that are made in the shape of an old-fashioned dynamo.

ECU Testing has agreed to have another look at my warrantied ECU and will send a DHL driver round to pick it up. So we'll see if it can be fixed on the second attempt.

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I would be interested in how they deal with your problem, I have had mixed experience with "lifetime warranty" I had a fluke meter with a lifetime warranty, the model had a well documented problem with the lead plugs so I shipped it back, they told me that the lifetime warranty actually was 10 years mine was just outside this and they sent me a bill for looking at it.

raywin said:

I would be interested in how they deal with your problem, I have had mixed experience with "lifetime warranty" I had a fluke meter with a lifetime warranty, the model had a well documented problem with the lead plugs so I shipped it back, they told me that the lifetime warranty actually was 10 years mine was just outside this and they sent me a bill for looking at it.

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Well, at least they're trying to provide the service so far, so I might as well play along. Sooner or later, as these things deteriorate, I expect the burden will get too great and they won't offer a warranty, or only for 12 months, or only on ECUs that are under 5 years old or something of the sort.

There's been another development on the ECU front. On a second look, ECU Testing told me that it was not repairable. They would try and source me another one . Some online Land Rover parts suppliers have them but they're typically in the region of £2000, so I didn't think they would be able to, at least at a price they could afford. Sure enough, they couldn't find another, so offered me a refund for the original repair, which I thought was very decent of them. It's arrived in my bank account this morning.

That does give me an insight into the business model. There's a finite library of operations they can perform. They can probably replace capacitors, but they won't build you a whole new unit from scratch, for example. They've worked out that they can make a living doing this, even if in a small proportion of cases they have to issue a refund.

Given the unreliability of these units I feel rather vulnerable just having one working one, so I'll put the £300 towards a good secondhand working ECU to keep in the cubby box in case of failure out on the road. I've had more ECU failures than flat tyres, but I carry a spare wheel, so it makes sense to carry an ECU too.

Brown said:

There's been another development on the ECU front. On a second look, ECU Testing told me that it was not repairable. They would try and source me another one . Some online Land Rover parts suppliers have them but they're typically in the region of £2000, so I didn't think they would be able to, at least at a price they could afford. Sure enough, they couldn't find another, so offered me a refund for the original repair, which I thought was very decent of them. It's arrived in my bank account this morning.

That does give me an insight into the business model. There's a finite library of operations they can perform. They can probably replace capacitors, but they won't build you a whole new unit from scratch, for example. They've worked out that they can make a living doing this, even if in a small proportion of cases they have to issue a refund.

Given the unreliability of these units I feel rather vulnerable just having one working one, so I'll put the £300 towards a good secondhand working ECU to keep in the cubby box in case of failure out on the road. I've had more ECU failures than flat tyres, but I carry a spare wheel, so it makes sense to carry an ECU too.

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Sorry to hear that, yes I agree about the business model, seems to be change the capacitors and cross your fingers, if it's ok then fine if it's more complex then do a refund.
At least they gave you your money back.
I am noticing the price of ECUs if going up these days, in the past there were lots available because the discovery TD5s were bing scrapped due to rust.
It makes me wonder how it will end up, would be a pity to scrap a good defender because you can't get or can't afford a replacement ECU.

raywin said:

Sorry to hear that, yes I agree about the business model, seems to be change the capacitors and cross your fingers, if it's ok then fine if it's more complex then do a refund.
At least they gave you your money back.
I am noticing the price of ECUs if going up these days, in the past there were lots available because the discovery TD5s were bing scrapped due to rust.
It makes me wonder how it will end up, would be a pity to scrap a good defender because you can't get or can't afford a replacement ECU.

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I've got another Ebay special on its way to me now. Mine seems very particular in that it only likes NNN500020 Defender spec ones, so I blew up the photo on the advert until I could see the part number. You'd think some enterprising soul would come up with an alternative, given that there are so many Land Rover enthusiasts about. People have come up with all sorts of aftermarket control systems for other popular vehicles. If I wanted to put in one of those General Motors LS series engines that are popular with customizers (if you want a bit more oomph than the traditional Rover V8 option) I'd be spoilt for choice of control units, and I'd be able to sit there tinkering with the tune on my laptop in real time with the open source software. Maybe I should weld myself a set of engine mount adapters and go for it.
Stop Press: I see Nene Overland already have the kit on their website. A bargain at £26995 plus VAT. A bit more than I think I'll be able to find down the crack of the sofa.

Right, my new secondhand ECU turned up today. I went out in the cold and ran the engine for a few minutes on the existing one to get it going, so as to make sure it was all working. Then I swapped the new one in and had a look for stored faults, and there were quite a few 'open circuit' and 'open load' items which I cleared. Then I did the 'learn security code' procedure and put the relevant injector codes in. It took ages with frozen fingers on the tiny onscreen keyboard on the Nanocom. Eventually the codes wrote themselves in and the engine started straight away. I've revved it and the various error codes haven't come back. Maybe they related to the donor vehicle being dismantled. I've not been for a long run so can't attest to its reliability but things are looking good. It's sounding nicer than the other one. The one I had in since October made the engine sound rather harsh and clattery, whereas this one is a little softer in tone, so I'll leave it in for now. So from now on I'll have an ECU plugged in and another standby one in the cubby box, which seems a sensible way to drive a TD5 these days. Plus it provides an easy way to test for faults.

QUOTE="Brown, post: 5089125, member: 89082"]Right, my new secondhand ECU turned up today. I went out in the cold and ran the engine for a few minutes on the existing one to get it going, so as to make sure it was all working. Then I swapped the new one in and had a look for stored faults, and there were quite a few 'open circuit' and 'open load' items which I cleared. Then I did the 'learn security code' procedure and put the relevant injector codes in. It took ages with frozen fingers on the tiny onscreen keyboard on the Nanocom. Eventually the codes wrote themselves in and the engine started straight away. I've revved it and the various error codes haven't come back. Maybe they related to the donor vehicle being dismantled. I've not been for a long run so can't attest to its reliability but things are looking good. It's sounding nicer than the other one. The one I had in since October made the engine sound rather harsh and clattery, whereas this one is a little softer in tone, so I'll leave it in for now. So from now on I'll have an ECU plugged in and another standby one in the cubby box, which seems a sensible way to drive a TD5 these days. Plus it provides an easy way to test for faults.[/QUOTE]

Great news, I'm sure a spare is a sound investment now, I still hope an alternative could be created soo

@eprothe how is the ECU with new capacitors going? You may have hit on something here, if duff ECUs were fitted with new capacitors I bet a good proportion of them would work again.

Hello,
Apologies for not replying sooner - I've been snowed in for six weeks and couldn't do any proper testing!

So, here's some Scottish landscape, enhanced with my Defender, which now has 100 miles behind it on new capacitors!


Obviously, I wouldn't say this within earshot of my ECU, but the new cap's do seem to have fixed it

Apart from all the ignorable errors, my ECU is still throwing a 160,CAN Error which I have no idea about...and now it's complaining that the EGR valve is stuck open (I removed it, years ago...not sure why it's only now throwing an error).

I'm sorry to read the misery you're having with your ECU, Brown - I think I've been very lucky with mine (so far)!

I like the idea of a 3d printed cradle for replacement cap's - eminently do-able! I have my eye out for a cheap, dead ECU on eBay as a test subject

All the best