ECU Problems :(

Hello,

I've not started diagnosing this properly yet, but it's looking possible that the ECU in my Td5 110 has packed up.

Can anybody explain the process of getting a replacement and coding/mapping/registering it to my vehicle, please?

I see on ebay, they tend to be sold with the green alarm box - do I need to replace both?

Thanks for any help

eprothe said:

Hello,

I've not started diagnosing this properly yet, but it's looking possible that the ECU in my Td5 110 has packed up.

Can anybody explain the process of getting a replacement and coding/mapping/registering it to my vehicle, please?

I see on ebay, they tend to be sold with the green alarm box - do I need to replace both?

Thanks for any help

Click to expand...

Hi eprothe
You don't say what year your 110 is but the early TD5 ECU's are none programmable in as much you are unable to change the fuel map it is set at the factory for the engine.
All other settings are able to be set, so with that out of the way lets look at what you need to do.
Getting a replacement: If you know that the ECU currently fitted is the original then look at the model number early will start with MSB ******* later will be NNN*******.
If you don't know if the ECU is the original then phone a main dealer quoting the VIN number of the vehicle and establish the correct ECU mode fitted from new and the correct replacement model.
I said that because MSB ECU's are no longer available new so if your one has been changed or you are going to change the model you will need to know the correct replacement model.
I don't know what you intend to do either new, used or repair. MSB as I said not available new and there was a stage when NNN's were not available new but I understand they are back in production (at a price).
The process of coding the replacement ECU is straightforward but you will need access to a diagnostic reader/programmer to do it.
Replacing the ECU you don't need to replace the 10AS unit (the green alarm box) you keep your own if it is functioning.
The adds you see with the ECU and10AS unit together if they are a pair that are programmed together will save you having to complete the first step of getting the ECU and 10AS talking to each other and you can get the vehicle started and driveable to someone who has a diagnostic reader/programmer to finish the correct setup.
So you are going down the replacement using the above information purchase the correct ECU for your vehicle.
Connect the Diagnostic tool to the vehicle if you are able to communicate with the ECU read the Injector codes and make a note of them in the correct order 1 to 5, you will need this information for the new ECU.
If you are unable to communicate with the original ECU you will need to remove the valve cover from the top of the engine to gain access to the injectors and then look for the codes on each of the injectors and make a note of them in the correct order 1 to 5.
Now install the replacement ECU using the diagnostic reader/programmer select 10AS and the function that allows the ECU to set a communication dialog with the 10AS unit.
Now programme each injector in the correct order with the codes you have noted down.
at this stage you may wish to delete any error codes that are logged on the replacement ECU because they will not be applicable to your vehicle.
You will now be good to go.
You could always get your ECU repaired the programming of the 10AS and injectors will not be erased so would be a simple plug and play when its returned.

Tim

Hi Tim,

that wealth of info is incredibly helpful - thanks very much indeed!

My 110 is an X-reg (00/01) with a 1Axxxxxx chassis number, so an earlier model, I think.

I haven't looked into the options, yet, regarding replacement of the ECU, but almost certainly a used/reconditioned unit.

Without diagnostic kit, I'm not even sure it is the ECU yet - I'm just forward planning for the wort case.

Thanks for your help

eprothe said:

Hi Tim,

that wealth of info is incredibly helpful - thanks very much indeed!

My 110 is an X-reg (00/01) with a 1Axxxxxx chassis number, so an earlier model, I think.



I haven't looked into the options, yet, regarding replacement of the ECU, but almost certainly a used/reconditioned unit.

Without diagnostic kit, I'm not even sure it is the ECU yet - I'm just forward planning for the wort case.

Thanks for your help

Click to expand...

Repair if the ECU is faulty would be my first choice.
I use a company called ECU Testing they are in Heanor DE75 7SJ Quite a way from Scotland I know.
They are not cheap but they do give a lifetime guarantee on the whole unit after the repair, which is helpful.
With a repair you would not need a diagnostic reader/programmer as all your settings will be intact.
I have no association with ECU Testing other than a very satisfied customer.
Tim

Hello again,

Mid-Winter Seasonal Gift-Giver (aka Father Christmas) brought me a Foxwell NT510, which was good of him, so I've been able to do some ECU-based diagnosis on this problem - I'd be very grateful if anybody who understands these things had the time to look over the extensive list of DTC errors I've discovered:

DTC --- Air flow circuit logged low
DTC --- Aircon fan drive open load fault logged
DTC --- Tacho drive over open load logged
DTC --- Gearbox/ABS output drive open load fault logged
DTC --- Aircon clutch drive open load fault logged
DTC --- Aircon fan drive open load fault active
DTC --- Tacho drive over open load active
DTC --- Gearbox/ABS output drive open load fault active
DTC --- Aircon clutch drive open load fault active
160,CAN Error fault active
DTC --- Engine speed outside bounds for cruise (where fitted) active
DTC --- Vehicle speed outside bounds for cruise (where fitted) active

To get this list, I cleared all the historic codes and then ran the engine for ten minutes, but didn't actually drive anywhere.

I'm pretty certain the ones I've colour-coded green can be ignored, as aircon isn't fitted.
The ones I've colour-coded orange I'm less certain about - there isn't an OEM tacho in the dash, but I suspect the DTC is more to do with a tacho feed direct to the ECU. There's no ABS fitted, but I'm not sure why this DTC mentions the gearbox.
Red codes look serious to me - air flow looks like a MAF problem to me, but I've done a visual inspection of the sensor and the filter and checked the power to the MAF sensor and there's no fault found. I've read around on the 160,CAN Error but haven't found a definitive answer to what it means, yet.

A factor that apparently complicates the codes here is that JLR seem not to have properly adopted OBD standards until some time between 2002 and 2007, so there don't appear to be any "proper" OBD-II P-codes, B-codes, C-codes etc being thrown.

Some background on the problem - twice before Christmas, the engine cut out while driving and refused to restart:
I appreciate the above DTC errors and the symptoms I've got have been discussed many times here and elsewhere and I've done a lot of reading, but I'd be grateful for the opinions of experience and knowledge on my problem, anyway. About seven years ago, I cleaned all the oil out of the red ECU plug and, last week, did the same again. I also cleaned and re-seated all the relay connectors under the driver's seat. At present, I'm suspecting either the MAF sensor or the crank position sensor.

Thanks for any help you can give,

lt's very difficult to diagnose what might be wrong with it from all that data and random running faults.
You may need to take it into a dealer and get it plugged into proper diagnostic kit.

Hello,

thanks for your thoughts lightning - there are certainly a lot of error codes here, but most of it can be ignored from what I've read. Most of the DTC's active and logged on my ECU are for additional systems I've not got, so the only ones I'm worried about are:

DTC --- Air flow circuit logged low
160,CAN Error fault active

Today, I took it for a short test drive and noticed something strange from the live data my NT510 was able to display - the Air Flow was at 0kg/hr for the entire trip. When I got back home, I decided to read the errors again, but did so while the engine was still running - not sure if this was a good idea, as the engine started struggling and then cut out. I think the cut-out was unrelated to me reading the ECU codes, though.

I read the codes again and a new one had turned up, which I didn't write down at the time, but was something like:

DTC --- Airflow sensor in backup

I then tried to start the engine again and it was back to refusing to fire, the same as when I had to be picked up off the side of the road by the AA. I checked the codes again and much more worrying codes are now present:

DTC --- Injector Fault(s) Logged
DTC --- Injector Fault(s) Active
DTC --- Injector 1 Peak Charge Long Logged
DTC --- Injector 2 Peak Charge Long Logged
DTC --- Injector 3 Peak Charge Long Logged
DTC --- Injector 4 Peak Charge Long Logged
DTC --- Injector 5 Peak Charge Long Logged

...however, as these DTCs weren't present after the engine died but only after I tried to restart it, I think they're symptoms of an initial fault, rather than the cause of the problem themselves. A bit of trawling through the internet suggests they might be caused by a CKP sensor fault, which is something I already suspected might be an issue.

Interestingly, the DTC -- Airflow sensor in backup fault had gone when I checked the codes after trying to restart, so I guess it doesn't get logged, but the DTC --- Air flow circuit logged low code was still present, so it seems possible that these two are related. I read back the live data while trying to restart the engine and found that the air flow was now at 4.8kg/hr with the engine stopped, which seems odd, but a bit of reading suggests this is around about the normal "ignition on, engine off" value - presumably the MAF sensor uses a live zero for fault diagnosis.

I've already got a new CKP sensor to fit, but it looks like a pig of a job - I'm going to order a new MAF sensor and try that first, as it's far easier to get at!

I'll post any updates

Hello,

a bit of an update on this:

I fitted a new MAP sensor - this seems to have fixed the intermittent 0kg/hr airflow, but didn't improve the non-starting.

I've just fitted a new CKS sensor - this is a pain to fit, but there are worse jobs to do on a Defender.

After a bit of a struggle, the engine started, but was running "rough". I revved it and the engine light came on, then the engine stalled out...

Reading the codes, I've got all the injector codes again, but a new one this time:

DTC --- High speed crank sync lost logged

I've measured the signal coming back from the new CKS sensor and there isn't one, so I'm suspecting a fault in the plug...I've just not been underneath again to check.

Before I do, I'm hoping somebody can answer a couple of questions:

When inserting the CKS sensor into the bell-housing, how far "in" should it go? The Haynes manual mentions a spacer (where fitted) - I don't think I've got one, but should I have?

Does the engine speed reported by the ECU via OBD "live data" come from the CKS sensor or somewhere else? While my new CKS sensor didn't seem to be supplying a signal to the ECU, the engine was still running (badly) and the ECU was reporting the RPM correctly.

If the CKS sensor connector seems fine (when I check it), I'm going to try cleaning out the red ECU connector again and open up the ECU to see if oil had actually got inside it. If that doesn't fix it, I'll have run out of ideas at that point...

Thanks for any help

I've got a TD5 the same vintage. It might be worth relooking at the red connector and if any oil has entered the ECU case, give the connector a blast with good contact cleaner. Intermittent problems quite often are interconnection issues rather than component failure

Thanks for that - I think that's the next sensible move.

This is quite an interesting thread on what sounds like the exact symptoms I'm getting...

Another update:
I took the ECU connector out again and cleaned it with contact cleaner, but no change.
To try and rule out a wiring issue between the CKS sensor and the ECU, I measured the resistance across the CKS sensor from the red ECU connector.
The resistance across the old sensor is 1.2kΩ - the resistance across pins 13 and 36 of the red ECU connector (the CKS sensor in place) is also 1.2kΩ, so the new sensor and the connectors seem fine.
I tried starting it again after cleaning the connectors and it fired up first time with no problems - I measured the signal coming back from the CKS sensor and it also seems fine (I was getting around 430Hz which, from what I remember, is about what it should be at idle). I then touched the accelerator and it stalled out...now it won't start again and I haven't bothered reading the codes...
So I'm at a bit of a loss now - my plan had been to bypass the wiring from the CKS sensor to the ECU, but that doesn't look like it's going to help.
Could it be the injectors? Can they just fail and go intermittent?

Thanks for any help

eprothe said:

Another update:
I took the ECU connector out again and cleaned it with contact cleaner, but no change.
To try and rule out a wiring issue between the CKS sensor and the ECU, I measured the resistance across the CKS sensor from the red ECU connector.
The resistance across the old sensor is 1.2kΩ - the resistance across pins 13 and 36 of the red ECU connector (the CKS sensor in place) is also 1.2kΩ, so the new sensor and the connectors seem fine.
I tried starting it again after cleaning the connectors and it fired up first time with no problems - I measured the signal coming back from the CKS sensor and it also seems fine (I was getting around 430Hz which, from what I remember, is about what it should be at idle). I then touched the accelerator and it stalled out...now it won't start again and I haven't bothered reading the codes...
So I'm at a bit of a loss now - my plan had been to bypass the wiring from the CKS sensor to the ECU, but that doesn't look like it's going to help.
Could it be the injectors? Can they just fail and go intermittent?


Thanks for any help

Click to expand...

eprothe,
The two cables from the CKS are screened cables. The screening is in place to stop stray signals primarily from the starter motor because of its close proximity to the CKS and the cable route. I had an issue with my cables getting brittle and the insulation deteriorating which exposed the copper wire. This in turn was getting wet and muddy causing poor starting and erratic running. Like you testing the cables did not indicate a problem, it was only on close inspection of the cables did I discover the problem. The problem area for the cables was near the plug to the CKS.
You asked previously how far the CKS should go in to the bellhousing. It sits up to the mounting flange on the CKS. It cant possibly go any further than the flange but the flange sits snuggly on the machined area of the bellhousing. NEVER use the fixing bolt to pull the CKS into place. Be sure it has arrived flush by hand you may have to apply a little grease such as Vaseline to the "O ring" seal to help it into register. Using the bolt to pull the CKS into place will distort the flange making the CKS sit further away from its intended distance from the flywheel.
Spacers under the CKS, some vehicles require a spacer between the bellhousing and the CKS the spacer is 0.500mm thick. The reason for the spacer is because a batch of bellhousing were machined incorrectly and 0.500mm undersize on the CKS location. The spacers were fitted so that the bellhousing could be used but no records were made by LR to link the requirement of a spacer to any particular bellhousing. I tried a spacer on my vehicle and it would not start with a spacer but first time without it.
You also asked about RPM signal yes it comes from the CKS
If the CKS supplies no signal to the ECU the engine will not start or run as the injectors will not open.
Tim

Hi Tim,

thanks very much for all that info - very helpful!

Very much clutching at straws, I decided to replace the CKS sensor connector and bypass the cables to it with a new, screened cable, going direct to the ECU.

To my delight, the engine started a revved without stalling...to my utter dismay, after about a minute of idling, it just died and now won't restart.

Now, I've got an additional ECU error:

DTC --- Topside Switch Failed Pre-Injection

From what I've read here and here, this seems to be related to one of more failed capacitors inside the ECU, presumably the huge ones you can see here.

This makes sense to me - I think I've tried everything short of pulling the injectors and checking them that seems reasonable and, although I've read that failed injector seals can cause poor running and starting, I'm not convinced the injectors are what's at fault here at all. The unpredictable nature of the fault and the fact that it's getting worse also seem to suggest a deteriorating fault (like a dying capacitor) rather than a damaged wire or oil in the loom I can't see or get at.

I've replaced failed capacitors in switch-mode PSUs in various IT equipment in the past, so as long as these capacitors aren't:
a) impossible to buy replacements for
b) too delicately surface-mount to remove
c) soldered through multiple layers on the ECU PCB
...I'm not put off by opening the ECU to replace them.

I'd be grateful for any second opinions on the ECU code and its causes. If anybody's ever opened up an ECU and attacked it with a soldering iron, I'd be interested to hear you experiences, too

Thanks

...and, indeed, after a little bit more reading, I found this, which says (amongst other things) :

"[The] TD5 2.5 ECU is a common failure for...the...Defender, failure can cause the engine to cut out intermittently, normally after leaving the vehicle for a few minutes the engine will re-start, but this is not always the case."
Yep - I've got that.

"A lot of customers have described a complete non start after the ECU has failed or even random cutting out over a certain rpm but then cutting back in again lower down the rev range."
Yes - I've got that, too.

"When the vehicle does not start it is very common that the engine ECU will fail to achieve communications to diagnostic equipment and therefore the rest of the electronic modules on the vehicle."
I've not noticed this...

"Failure of the ECU often happens suddenly with no prior warning, and when communications to the ECU is possible fault codes relating to injector issues are often found."
...but I've definitely got this.

So I think the evidence is pointing towards a failing ECU...

I had a very similar story to this, I sent the ECU to ECU Testing who said they couldnt find any problem but the would fix it for £350 ( i think thats the figure ) I bought a second hand ECU and re programmed it using Nanocom.
Take a look here its a bit long but maybe something that might help. https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/crankshaft-sensor-spacer.308563/

I suspected the Crank sensor and replaced the sensor and connection, the old ECU still works I tested it and also I llet @Brown use it to test his when he had some problems, one other thing I did was to add some extra earth connections, one directly to the ECU retaining bolt, one near the starter motor ( heavy duty strap) and I cleaned up the existing earth strap connections

Hi Raywin,

thanks for that - the thread is certainly helpful.

A long time ago, I had the whole melting handbrake cable thing happen to me and changed all my earth straps and added an earth cable direct from the battery to one of the ECU mounting bolts. Although I replaced the chassis and bulkhead a couple of years ago, I've kept the additional ECU earth cable...

I've opened my ECU, then...


The two capacitors are seemingly long-obsolete RIFA PEH169 types:


In typical Land Rover fashion, although the capacitors have screw-terminal and a stud mounting, a transformer has been fixed to the ECU PCB across the capacitor terminals, preventing them from being fully removed - I expect the capacitors were easily removable in ECU version 1...not so in ECU version God-knows-what! My solution was to cut through the eyelets, allowing the capacitors to be withdrawn enough to release the terminal screws:


...go big or go home, as they say.

Now the tricky bit - the capacitors are pretty eclectic, ancient types, apparently often used in old stereo equipment, but now sold by nobody.

Can anybody point me in the direction of somewhere that sells:
PEH169PA410AQ 1000uF 100V
PEH169KE433AQ 3300uF 40V

For those interested in interpreting code-numbers: PEH169 is the capacitor type, PA/KE is the physical size, 410/433 is the capacity, A is the "version" and Q is the tolerance (-10% to+30%).

Thanks

eprothe said:

Hi Raywin,

thanks for that - the thread is certainly helpful.

A long time ago, I had the whole melting handbrake cable thing happen to me and changed all my earth straps and added an earth cable direct from the battery to one of the ECU mounting bolts. Although I replaced the chassis and bulkhead a couple of years ago, I've kept the additional ECU earth cable...

I've opened my ECU, then...
View attachment 228880

The two capacitors are seemingly long-obsolete RIFA PEH169 types:
View attachment 228881

In typical Land Rover fashion, although the capacitors have screw-terminal and a stud mounting, a transformer has been fixed to the ECU PCB across the capacitor terminals, preventing them from being fully removed - I expect the capacitors were easily removable in ECU version 1...not so in ECU version God-knows-what! My solution was to cut through the eyelets, allowing the capacitors to be withdrawn enough to release the terminal screws:
View attachment 228883

...go big or go home, as they say.

Now the tricky bit - the capacitors are pretty eclectic, ancient types, apparently often used in old stereo equipment, but now sold by nobody.

Can anybody point me in the direction of somewhere that sells:
PEH169PA410AQ 1000uF 100V
PEH169KE433AQ 3300uF 40V

For those interested in interpreting code-numbers: PEH169 is the capacitor type, PA/KE is the physical size, 410/433 is the capacity, A is the "version" and Q is the tolerance (-10% to+30%).

Thanks

Click to expand...

That's very interesting I am watching with bated breath, and I hope it's a big success for you, I read that the main issues with these ECUs are usually down to those capacitors, and I suspect the ECU repair company were going to change mine and rely on that being the problem, I understand that when capacitors fail the mode is often a gradual break down then a total failure, and that is what gives the injector topside faults.
Would be great if you can find a source, because I would like to buy a couple, and hang onto them so I could do my spare ECU.

I expect that we'll see more and more of these problems as the supply of ECUs ages. After all, that model was discontinued 14 or 15 years ago, and you'd be lucky if any other electronic equipment of that vintage was still reliable. I've broken down more often a a result of ECU problems than I've had flat tyres. Currently I have two duff ECUs and one working one. One of the duff ones was previously repaired by that firm that @raywin and I have tried, which offers a lifetime guarantee, so I'll send it back to them and see if I can get them to look at it again under warranty. Yes, topside switch failure errors are apt to be capacitor related in my experience. The other thing that a failing ECU can give you is 'peak charge' errors, but these can also arise as a result of an injector loom which is on the way out.

I should add that the injectors themselves are fairly long lived units, which is quite impressive considering the pressures inside them and the fact that they rattle up and down thousands of times a minute. They're not made by Land Rover, which might have something to do with it.

eprothe said:

Hi Raywin,

thanks for that - the thread is certainly helpful.

A long time ago, I had the whole melting handbrake cable thing happen to me and changed all my earth straps and added an earth cable direct from the battery to one of the ECU mounting bolts. Although I replaced the chassis and bulkhead a couple of years ago, I've kept the additional ECU earth cable...

I've opened my ECU, then...
View attachment 228880

The two capacitors are seemingly long-obsolete RIFA PEH169 types:
View attachment 228881

In typical Land Rover fashion, although the capacitors have screw-terminal and a stud mounting, a transformer has been fixed to the ECU PCB across the capacitor terminals, preventing them from being fully removed - I expect the capacitors were easily removable in ECU version 1...not so in ECU version God-knows-what! My solution was to cut through the eyelets, allowing the capacitors to be withdrawn enough to release the terminal screws:
View attachment 228883

...go big or go home, as they say.

Now the tricky bit - the capacitors are pretty eclectic, ancient types, apparently often used in old stereo equipment, but now sold by nobody.

Can anybody point me in the direction of somewhere that sells:
PEH169PA410AQ 1000uF 100V
PEH169KE433AQ 3300uF 40V

For those interested in interpreting code-numbers: PEH169 is the capacitor type, PA/KE is the physical size, 410/433 is the capacity, A is the "version" and Q is the tolerance (-10% to+30%).

Thanks

Click to expand...

Just a though but @sierrafery is resident electronics expert maybe he might know where to get capacitors or modern equivalent