Dream Defenders

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Shippers said:
@george man do you own a Defender or have ever owned or driven one?...
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I had a 200tdi 90 for a number of years yes. I sold it after nearly 10 years because I started having to travel a lot for work, often up to 6 or 7 hrs per day and the return leg was mostly late at night. Not only was it more of a bumpy ride than I wanted before a long day of work, but now and then it had one of those days where something wasn't quite right and I didn't want to risk not getting to work as I am self employed.

Having the 200tdi from the age of 18 is exactly why I am a member of this forum as the members have helped me through a number of problems over the years.

I have no problem with people being against the idea of electrifying a land rover and as with most things in life I think it's good to hear both sides of the argument to help form a level opinion. At the end of the day, what anyone does to their car is completely up to them... I'm not trying to force anyone to do it to their car.
As I previously said in this thread, If i wanted a more pro-EV response I would have looked elsewhere but if I'm honest I wasn't expecting to have to justify my existence on this forum.
 
The problem is those of us who like Land Rover's [ 90 110 Defender ] as they are are not going to favor what you are trying to do and I recon most here do not like other classics being electrified either.
Not against electric per say but make lighter vehicles that suit the power source.
The problem of tire particle pollution is starting to make headlines and electric battery's are heavy.
 
tottot said:
The problem is those of us who like Land Rover's [ 90 110 Defender ] as they are are not going to favor what you are trying to do and I recon most here do not like other classics being electrified either.
Not against electric per say but make lighter vehicles that suit the power source.
The problem of tire particle pollution is starting to make headlines and electric battery's are heavy.
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I've seen a lot about tire particle pollution too... most articles written in a way that implies it's only EVs that create it.
Interestingly on the topic of weight, our calculations based on our chassis and suspension design, coupled with a 65kWh battery, 4 x 70kW motors giving roughly 370hp and a range extender with a tank of fuel show that the weight of the full system is give or take a couple of kilos the same as the standard defender with a full tank.

There are loads of articles out there trying to put down EVs for reasons like weight and tire pollution, and yes some EVs are super heavy... the hummer is one, partly because it's a massive heavy car and partly because it has a 250kWh battery pack! But there isn't actually such a massive difference in weight if done right
 
tottot said:
The problem is those of us who like Land Rover's [ 90, 110, Defender ] as they are are not going to favor what you are trying to do and I recon most here do not like other classics being electrified either.
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The above may well be the main issue. As for 370hp in a brick on wheels.:eek:
 
george man said:
I've seen a lot about tire particle pollution too... most articles written in a way that implies it's only EVs that create it.
Interestingly on the topic of weight, our calculations based on our chassis and suspension design, coupled with a 65kWh battery, 4 x 70kW motors giving roughly 370hp and a range extender with a tank of fuel show that the weight of the full system is give or take a couple of kilos the same as the standard defender with a full tank.

There are loads of articles out there trying to put down EVs for reasons like weight and tire pollution, and yes some EVs are super heavy... the hummer is one, partly because it's a massive heavy car and partly because it has a 250kWh battery pack! But there isn't actually such a massive difference in weight if done right
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Now this may sound strange…
You have a chassis etc already in design all you need is landrover body work. Why not buy this off landrover? This may not be cheap but they will be straight,easy to paint etc.
this way when the things go for inspection it is a “new motor” and no one will worry about number plate retention or year build.
Probally better to do this than chop up a motor just for panels.
 
I'm happy with the power of my standard Td5, what I need is the ability to tow a trailer in the winter with the wipers and heater on and at least a 300 mile real life range.
 
Hicap phill said:
Now this may sound strange…
You have a chassis etc already in design all you need is landrover body work. Why not buy this off landrover? This may not be cheap but they will be straight,easy to paint etc.
this way when the things go for inspection it is a “new motor” and no one will worry about number plate retention or year build.
Probally better to do this than chop up a motor just for panels.
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no need to buy from jlr you can buy all panels just about from independant manufactures any not available easily made...but will you get a CoC?...
 
Galladog said:
You would have to explain that to me.
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Our aim is to offer this with a range extender option. There would be a number of different options but for this use case a diesel generator would be best option currently. Gives you the benefit of cheap at home charging but the ease of a quick fill up while out on long drives
 
Shippers said:
no need to buy from jlr you can buy all panels just about from independant manufactures any not available easily made...but will you get a CoC?...
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Yeah JLR wouldn't sell anyway, that's the problem ineos had.
There's no reason you wouldn't get compliance with a defender body as long as you built them in the same way they left the factory for the later models ie caps on end of bumbers and over exposed nuts and bolts
 
I just do not get hybrid car's other than as a means to make long range electric drive practical and to meet some tax and ulez rules. Some of the time a electric motor and it's battery are hauling about a petrol/diesel engine and its fuel and some times a petrol/diesel engine and its fuel are hauling an electric motor and its battery about.
Galladog got it there, it's going to be a diesel electric. [Range extender] ha ha.
 
george man said:
I cant see where they don't comply
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Might have missed part of the conversation. But only JLR can build "Land Rovers" of which the CoC applies too. Anyone building anything else would have to register them as a different make and go through the IVA process. That said I do not see why such a vehicle wouldn't be able to pass an IVA, although the IVA is not the same test and standard as full Type Approval.

Can't find a Land Rover example at present, although I have seen them, not sure if it was Twisted or one of the other modders...

But it will essentially be like this.

A new 70 plate Ford Escort Mk2
Ford%20Escort%20Mk2-5.jpg


But it isn't. It is registered as:
Screenshot 2023-08-02 at 12.16.57 pm.png


Also note that there are no Ford badges on it and looking at their website there is also no mention of Ford. As Ford own the IP rights, so this vehicle cannot be sold or advertised as a Ford without their permission.

The same will be true for Land Rover. They will likely take legal action if you try and sell something as a "Land Rover" in marketing or badged as, if it isn't registered as a Land Rover.

Not saying this is impossible and I wish you luck on your venture. But building and selling cars is likely not a cheap thing, way beyond my means. Buying, modding and selling on is quite a different kettle of fish and a lot easier. Small scale production is still possible in the UK and is and has always been the core and backbone of the kit car industry and some small scale sports car makers or other vehicles such as an Ibex. But I'd guess it is a lot more ambitious and expensive proposition.
 
tottot said:
I just do not get hybrid car's other than as a means to make long range electric drive practical and to meet some tax and ulez rules. Some of the time a electric motor and it's battery are hauling about a petrol/diesel engine and its fuel and some times a petrol/diesel engine and its fuel are hauling an electric motor and its battery about.
Galladog got it there, it's going to be a diesel electric. [Range extender] ha ha.
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The range extender we are looking at is pretty compact and lightweight so it would mean when you're driving around town you're not carrying a load of extra weight but if you do longer trips you have the option to charge from petrol rather than sitting at a pump. This would be an option so not everyone would need it but it means you can spec a battery that suits your day to day needs so you're not carrying around 200 miles of range for a 10 mile trip.
 
300bhp/ton said:
Might have missed part of the conversation. But only JLR can build "Land Rovers" of which the CoC applies too. Anyone building anything else would have to register them as a different make and go through the IVA process. That said I do not see why such a vehicle wouldn't be able to pass an IVA, although the IVA is not the same test and standard as full Type Approval.

Can't find a Land Rover example at present, although I have seen them, not sure if it was Twisted or one of the other modders...

But it will essentially be like this.

A new 70 plate Ford Escort Mk2
Ford%20Escort%20Mk2-5.jpg


But it isn't. It is registered as:
View attachment 294159

Also note that there are no Ford badges on it and looking at their website there is also no mention of Ford. As Ford own the IP rights, so this vehicle cannot be sold or advertised as a Ford without their permission.

The same will be true for Land Rover. They will likely take legal action if you try and sell something as a "Land Rover" in marketing or badged as, if it isn't registered as a Land Rover.

Not saying this is impossible and I wish you luck on your venture. But building and selling cars is likely not a cheap thing, way beyond my means. Buying, modding and selling on is quite a different kettle of fish and a lot easier. Small scale production is still possible in the UK and is and has always been the core and backbone of the kit car industry and some small scale sports car makers or other vehicles such as an Ibex. But I'd guess it is a lot more ambitious and expensive proposition.
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Exactly right, the new vehicle wouldn't be registered as a land rover as it wouldn't have enough of the original components. What we would be advertising is converting existing land rovers into the new electric vehicle rather than creating electric defenders.

As I'm sure you know in the UK there is a step between IVA and full blown type approval which allows for up to 250 vehicles to be built a year which is way more than we are aiming at. The test is much closer to an IVA but they look at the production element of it rather than just the vehicle as a single entity
 
tottot said:
The above may well be the main issue. As for 370hp in a brick on wheels.:eek:
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Galladog said:
I'm happy with the power of my standard Td5, what I need is the ability to tow a trailer in the winter with the wipers and heater on and at least a 300 mile real life range.
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I would completely agree with that. A defender does not need more than about 150 to function perfectly well as it was designed to do, maybe 200 if you want to push it but any more than that is once again removing form the point and main design purpose of a defender. I keep coming back to is but it is a light truck not a car or an suv.
 
dag019 said:
I would completely agree with that. A defender does not need more than about 150 to function perfectly well as it was designed to do, maybe 200 if you want to push it but any more than that is once again removing form the point and main design purpose of a defender. I keep coming back to is but it is a light truck not a car or an suv.
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Don't really agree. We are all different and all have different needs and wants. You could argue a 72hp Series was capable of running at motorway speeds, towing and going off road and that anything over 100hp would be crazy.... yet in the 1990s Land Rover fitted a 182bhp V8 and a 193bhp Straight 6 to factory Defenders.

Today JLR will even sell you a 385bhp one if you have enough money for it. And people have been plonking larger and more powerful engines in them for almost 40 years. So power is nothing new. The ease of getting that power is much easier these days though.

Also do not forget the Range Rover classic and Discovery 1 are almost identical to a Defender under the body. Just a different wheelbase. But the axles, suspension, drivetrain, steering are all either basically the same design or in many case the exact same components. The Disco2 and p38 RR are also not so far apart in design. And all of these have had much more powerful engines fitted over the past 3 decades or more and have proved to handle the power perfectly well.

You might be happy with 150hp, but I suspect anyone wanting to invest larger sums of money in a new build vehicle today would probably hope for a fair bit more performance.
 
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