Dream Defenders

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MrF said:
Heh, I bet you donned your asbestos undies before posting this thread.
I'm in a small minority in that I like and own Landrovers but also have a small ev that the wife mostly uses for nipping to town and to keep the wear off more fun cars (Seat Mii) and its ok. But a 90? Kind of defeats the utilitarian aspect so I'm with the other peasants holding pitchforks.

Being constructive, the things I would consider about my 90 if I had to ev'd it are really to do with how the conversion has been done.

You have to do a electric heater conversion anyway so a improved one with ac that can be directed to cabin heat or just clear the windscreen while your fixing your wet knee issue, and also fit heated seats because running the cabin heating on the ev kills its range in winter when battery chemistry alters characteristics because of the lower temps, but you don't need full cabin heat once off "shore power" with heated seats unless the journey is very long and its extremely cold. I can drive our little ev for its full (reduced) range in winter with just the seat heating in minus temperatures.
Range and cold weather issues are also what I would be most focused on finding out if I was a purchaser, as when its snowing I want to use my 90 instead of the other car because its more suited the conditions, but if battery chemistry means I'm not going to make the journey comfortably or while towing a big trailer it defeats the point of it and I might as well take a "normal" car.
I'd want to know what towing a load does to range too in advance. No I'm not stupid, I know its going to be bad, but I need to know how bad to know how usable it will actually be and work around it.
Weight is also a big factor, the base vehicle is not exactly light to start with, and I can't see it not being even more lardy and having any usable range in cold weather in this respect.

I'd also consider offering a option to slow recharge/recover it when it inevitably runs out of charge offroad or somewhere awkward. This sounds like a tongue in cheek dig but its based on practical experience as we live out in the middle of nowhere, a couple of times I've had that "I'm trying to limp home, but get the granny charger & the genny loaded ready in case I don't make it" call from the wife mid winter.

Small points, but from practical experience they're what I'd use to assess any converted vehicles on amongst other criteria.
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If we are being constructive about the conversion rather than dismissing it I would not be looking at pure plug in EV. I know this may defeat the point of what you are trying to achieve but for all the reasons above, especially off road and towing pure plug in EV is not practical for a defender. I would not be looking at hybrid drive either as you do not really get any benefit. I would be looking at electric drive with onboard generator if I was looking to convert a defender to Electric. This is the principle that trains use and is one of the ways people are looking at converting HGV's to electric. This also ties in with my comment earlier about treating a defender as a light truck not as a car.

I follow these guys on youtube but this is their main website: www.edisonmotors.ca. They are in the process of making an electric logging truck for the Canadian wilderness. This sort of approach I would suggest is far more in keeping with the spirit and general usage of a defender than trying to look at electric road cars. It is a pure electric drive with a battery pack. It has the ability to run purely on electric and be charged form a plug in charger. But it has an onboard diesel engine attached to a generator to recharge the batteries while driving if required.
 
dag019 said:
If we are being constructive about the conversion rather than dismissing it I would not be looking at pure plug in EV. I know this may defeat the point of what you are trying to achieve but for all the reasons above, especially off road and towing pure plug in EV is not practical for a defender. I would not be looking at hybrid drive either as you do not really get any benefit. I would be looking at electric drive with onboard generator if I was looking to convert a defender to Electric. This is the principle that trains use and is one of the ways people are looking at converting HGV's to electric. This also ties in with my comment earlier about treating a defender as a light truck not as a car.

I follow these guys on youtube but this is their main website: www.edisonmotors.ca. They are in the process of making an electric logging truck for the Canadian wilderness. This sort of approach I would suggest is far more in keeping with the spirit and general usage of a defender than trying to look at electric road cars. It is a pure electric drive with a battery pack. It has the ability to run purely on electric and be charged form a plug in charger. But it has an onboard diesel engine attached to a generator to recharge the batteries while driving if required.
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Really interesting post and I couldn't agree more, with current battery technology range extenders are absolutely the way to go!
The main problem with existing conversions, well... one of them, is they put the batteries in the engine bay because they are relying on the original running gear. By replacing all of this and putting batteries in the floor the engine bay is completely free for a range extender, whatever form that may be in.
This gives all of the benefits of ev (silent running, ease of use, almost zero maintenance etc) but the benefit of vast availability of wet fuels.

I'm well aware that electric isn't for everyone. I loved tinkering with my 200tdi and the sound of a v8 is fantastic. However, I didn't like HAVING to tinker with it when it wouldn't start before work and the noise and vibration gets tedious on a long journey.

Ultimately I think it comes down to what each person enjoys about defenders. Or any classic car for that matter. I love the aesthetic, the meccano like ability to upgrade components, the ability to swing off the main road and trundle up a muddy track and ultimately the smile you inevitably get from combining all 3. Personally, I never got as much joy from fettling the engine, hearing the exhaust or knowing I was always a speed bump away from a break down but I know that for a lot of people this is what it's all about.

I love these cars and am trying to find a way to keep them enjoyable and drivable for people who don't want to spend all their time under the bonnet
 
george man said:
Really interesting post and I couldn't agree more, with current battery technology range extenders are absolutely the way to go!
The main problem with existing conversions, well... one of them, is they put the batteries in the engine bay because they are relying on the original running gear. By replacing all of this and putting batteries in the floor the engine bay is completely free for a range extender, whatever form that may be in.
This gives all of the benefits of ev (silent running, ease of use, almost zero maintenance etc) but the benefit of vast availability of wet fuels.

I'm well aware that electric isn't for everyone. I loved tinkering with my 200tdi and the sound of a v8 is fantastic. However, I didn't like HAVING to tinker with it when it wouldn't start before work and the noise and vibration gets tedious on a long journey.

Ultimately I think it comes down to what each person enjoys about defenders. Or any classic car for that matter. I love the aesthetic, the meccano like ability to upgrade components, the ability to swing off the main road and trundle up a muddy track and ultimately the smile you inevitably get from combining all 3. Personally, I never got as much joy from fettling the engine, hearing the exhaust or knowing I was always a speed bump away from a break down but I know that for a lot of people this is what it's all about.

I love these cars and am trying to find a way to keep them enjoyable and drivable for people who don't want to spend all their time under the bonnet
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Tbh if you are having to constantly tinker to keep a 200tdi going, then I kind of reckon you do not know what you are doing, rest of the car maybe, but not the engine.

That welsh guy on tv doing ev conversions, watched a couple of the shows, was not impressed with the mods, mainly as they used the standard transmission locked into one gear, now I am no genius by a long stroke, but I reckon some old worn out pos trans having to handle the low rpm torque from an ev motor is not going to fare well.
 
lynall said:
Tbh if you are having to constantly tinker to keep a 200tdi going, then I kind of reckon you do not know what you are doing, rest of the car maybe, but not the engine.

That welsh guy on tv doing ev conversions, watched a couple of the shows, was not impressed with the mods, mainly as they used the standard transmission locked into one gear, now I am no genius by a long stroke, but I reckon some old worn out pos trans having to handle the low rpm torque from an ev motor is not going to fare well.
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Yup I agree, running a motor through old transmission is a recipe for disaster which is why we are designing an entirely new platform
 
george man said:
Yup I agree, running a motor through old transmission is a recipe for disaster which is why we are designing an entirely new platform
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If people want an electric car, I think they will just buy one. It will have a slippery electric car body on it, which will extend range.

Don't really see much advantage to having an electric car with a boxy Defender body on it, it seems to take the worst of both worlds, and mix them up, at a high cost.
 
lynall said:
Tbh if you are having to constantly tinker to keep a 200tdi going, then I kind of reckon you do not know what you are doing, rest of the car maybe, but not the engine.
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Have to agree here. It sounds like half of your issues with a. Defender is the fact that they are inherently old cars now (newest is still nearly 8 years old) and your experience seems to be with ones that have been poorly maintained. Even my series 3 I would happily get into and have complete confidence that it will start first time and drive me a 1000miles without incident. But I have meticulously maintained and rebuilt mine to be in that position. As soon as something begins to show signs of needing to be replaced it is. None of the “it’s a Land Rover they all do that” because they only all do that because they are all poorly maintained. Unlike you however I also enjoy the maintenance side of things.

The exhaust drone and vibration is on that can be improved with soundproofing, and if you go far enough aftermarket exhaust with different silencers. I run a a virtually straight through pipe on mine and although louder outside the noice inside did not change as that all comes from the engine not the exhaust. But unknown I have said it before I truest believe a lot of peoples complaints about them os because they are trying to compare them to a modern car and not a ‘60s truck which is what they truest are. Even the newest transit ones are never going to be as comfortable, quiet, reliable as a modern saloon car from any manufacturer. But I happily do over 30k miles in mine every year. You get used to it, and in my case now
Work the other way round comparing cars to my Land Rover. They all have too low a driving position. You have to sit laying down and you cannot adjust the seat to be the nice comfortable 90 degree church pew I have got used to and is comfortable. I dislike cars because I am used to the defender. I would Much rather be driving trucks or Vans than a car.
 
george man said:
Yup I agree, running a motor through old transmission is a recipe for disaster which is why we are designing an entirely new platform
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You shouldn need to design a new platform. Fit the engine and generator to the engine bay, fit the battery pack to the gearbox/transfer box location, find or manufacture e-axles to replace the current ones motor goes in place of the diff. All defender-ness is maintained. Off-road capability is maintained as you are still running the same suspension and beam axle Design. I know this will be more cost as you don’t have one motor running everything but that is how you will achieve the best result.
 
dag019 said:
You shouldn need to design a new platform. Fit the engine and generator to the engine bay, fit the battery pack to the gearbox/transfer box location, find or manufacture e-axles to replace the current ones motor goes in place of the diff. All defender-ness is maintained. Off-road capability is maintained as you are still running the same suspension and beam axle Design. I know this will be more cost as you don’t have one motor running everything but that is how you will achieve the best result.
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I actually started off looking at something like this. It's hard to put a motor on the diff location because of the constant movement and its also super exposed to rocks etc. The best I could settle on was using hub motors in each wheel on the existing axles but that gives 2 problems: massive unsprung weight and the space between the chassis rails isn't big enough to fit a decent size battery. Hub motors in a 4x4 are also at risk of damage from rocks which isn't an issue in road going cars.

As I say, not to everyone's taste but a new platform gives you the driving experience if a modern car with the looks and preferred driving position of a defender.
 
george man said:
I actually started off looking at something like this. It's hard to put a motor on the diff location because of the constant movement and its also super exposed to rocks etc.
Click to expand...

I am by no means an expert in this and my only experience is following the Edison motors build I linked previously on you tube. But if e-axles work for hgv off-road which would be far more demanding, weight etc. I am sure they could be made to work at the lighter duty end of the spectrum.
 
This photo is how the hummer ev is laid out, it has two drive units front and rear and carries its ultimum battery pack built from modules inside a larger armored pack under the floor between the two, and is probably the best current production awd ev layout. GM invested a lot of money in it, but it has the same drive motors front and rear layout pioneered by the awd tesla's with ifs/irs, and the structural armoured battery pack carried low down. I have a co-worker in the US who has taken order of one of these already, and he says its a beast and a handful to drive in full power mode, but he won't go offroad because of the price/value/weight. :-
2022-GMC-HUMMER-EV-Ultium-053-scaled.jpg


If I was going to attempt to borrow the results of GM's extensive research, Id use the older pre model Y tesla drive batteries split into 3 armored boxes (they're pretty modular inside as is common knowledge now), and find the most compact drive motors that have the best clearance and re-implement and drop a defender body on it to do a sort of artisanal version. I don't think it needs the ev equivalent of 1000hp like the hummer comes with. Even that tiny little Mii I have is a rocket low down because of battery torque and its funny to humliate sports cars off the line with, so a modest utlitarian donor would make sense and be more in keeping with the spirit and performance of a Defender.
But then the real elephant in the room, the legality of it. From https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles what I describe above is 7 points, 1 point under the minimum 8 to not require re-registration and a q plate. From the hotrod world I know the IVA can be a nightmare too but doable. DVLA has some guidance again https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/individual-vehicle-approval I'm guessing thats another reason you want to keep the axles so much, to retain donor identity, although I've grown to love q plates, as its a mark that everything has been declared already.
Pretty sure also most of the vintage voltage builds are heavily flouting the regs too and are incorrectly registered as a result..

If you think the law makes it awkward to do EV stuff in the UK, all I can say is its utopia compared to the French systems. Here the only legal option seems to be a 2cv or Renault 4 conversion for 12k which gives a 45mph range on the converted vehicle...
 
MrF said:
This photo is how the hummer ev is laid out, it has two drive units front and rear and carries its ultimum battery pack built from modules inside a larger armored pack under the floor between the two, and is probably the best current production awd ev layout. GM invested a lot of money in it, but it has the same drive motors front and rear layout pioneered by the awd tesla's with ifs/irs, and the structural armoured battery pack carried low down. I have a co-worker in the US who has taken order of one of these already, and he says its a beast and a handful to drive in full power mode, but he won't go offroad because of the price/value/weight. :-
2022-GMC-HUMMER-EV-Ultium-053-scaled.jpg


If I was going to attempt to borrow the results of GM's extensive research, Id use the older pre model Y tesla drive batteries split into 3 armored boxes (they're pretty modular inside as is common knowledge now), and find the most compact drive motors that have the best clearance and re-implement and drop a defender body on it to do a sort of artisanal version. I don't think it needs the ev equivalent of 1000hp like the hummer comes with. Even that tiny little Mii I have is a rocket low down because of battery torque and its funny to humliate sports cars off the line with, so a modest utlitarian donor would make sense and be more in keeping with the spirit and performance of a Defender.
But then the real elephant in the room, the legality of it. From https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-registration/radically-altered-vehicles what I describe above is 7 points, 1 point under the minimum 8 to not require re-registration and a q plate. From the hotrod world I know the IVA can be a nightmare too but doable. DVLA has some guidance again https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/individual-vehicle-approval I'm guessing thats another reason you want to keep the axles so much, to retain donor identity, although I've grown to love q plates, as its a mark that everything has been declared already.
Pretty sure also most of the vintage voltage builds are heavily flouting the regs too and are incorrectly registered as a result..

If you think the law makes it awkward to do EV stuff in the UK, all I can say is its utopia compared to the French systems. Here the only legal option seems to be a 2cv or Renault 4 conversion for 12k which gives a 45mph range on the converted vehicle...
Click to expand...
The Hummer is a good way to do it, the better is having 4 motors like with the rivian. This allows for a digital version of diff lock whereby you can guarantee all wheels are turning... it also allows for tank turns.

I'm actually ditching the axles as well as the chassis and transfer box, it's all old tech and doesn't give good driving on the road or good efficiency, too much resistance in the components that just aren't needed.
So yes you're right, it won't qualify as a modified car but because we are planning to build an entire platform to be fitted with the same body each time we also don't need to do an iva, installed getting small batch type approval allowing for up to 250 vehicles a year to be built as long as each is built in the same way so from the customers point if view it will be a brand new car, registered in whatever year its built, with a defender body mounted to it.

This is the reason for my original question of what other improvements would you make along the way. We have a number of ev and chassis specialists onboard and are hapoy with our platform package, I was just interested to see what people would address if they were starting with a blank slate!
 
george man said:
The Hummer is a good way to do it, the better is having 4 motors like with the rivian. This allows for a digital version of diff lock whereby you can guarantee all wheels are turning... it also allows for tank turns.

I'm actually ditching the axles as well as the chassis and transfer box, it's all old tech and doesn't give good driving on the road or good efficiency, too much resistance in the components that just aren't needed.
So yes you're right, it won't qualify as a modified car but because we are planning to build an entire platform to be fitted with the same body each time we also don't need to do an iva, installed getting small batch type approval allowing for up to 250 vehicles a year to be built as long as each is built in the same way so from the customers point if view it will be a brand new car, registered in whatever year its built, with a defender body mounted to it.

This is the reason for my original question of what other improvements would you make along the way. We have a number of ev and chassis specialists onboard and are hapoy with our platform package, I was just interested to see what people would address if they were starting with a blank slate!
Click to expand...
So in reality it's not a Defender at all?
How much is this all going to cost then for a vehicle £150,000, £200,000?
Would that include the Defender or just the chassis/drive train?
In my mind it will never be a viable profitable project if its aimed at the average Defender owner.
 
Anaconda said:
So in reality it's not a Defender at all?
How much is this all going to cost then for a vehicle £150,000, £200,000?
Would that include the Defender or just the chassis/drive train?
In my mind it will never be a viable profitable project if its aimed at the average Defender owner.
Click to expand...
That is an issue in my mind too.
Pretty much everyone I know that has a Defender bought an old one at around the 5-10k price bracket, and then spent some money doing it up, or didn't, depending on taste and budget.

I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to spend 100K plus on a motor that goes to the shops, the tip, and a bit of green laning at weekends.

This can be clearly demonstrated by looking at Range Rover Sports and similar vehicles, which are very rarely used for any working purpose.
 
Last edited:
I had a trundle in a Protean Electric Defender recently, it had 4 ‘in wheel’ electric motors with torque vectoring - it was a) rapid on road b) unstoppable off road and c) had a dreadful range. If you’re wealthy and don’t go far then it’s the best retro EV Defender I’ve experienced, but is pretty pointless. However, I’ve also been out in the forthcoming EV Defender from JLR, it is a weapon - but it’s not Meccano…

….I like Meccano.
 
End of the day with an electric motor its not a Defender and mine was electric I could do what I do.

Drove to Barcelona via the Pyrenees
France off road for 8 hours
Salisbury plains - we covered 200miles in just over a day
My job, mostly at a workshop but cant charge it there. Site work where I need power, often provided by the Td5.

All for improving and updating the old Defender, which is what I tend to do with mine and I think a fair few members on here would agree ive done that.

Never in a million years would I fit an electric motor. I may consider a hybrid conversion should the taxes become absurd but that would be that last choice.
 
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