Disco axles with leaf springs

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No, shouldn't be any 'play', should be a 'tight' sliding fit on teh splines on the rear.
You running that pancake and pumper V8 through it?
Check Ascrofts site, trying to rack my brains over the specs, but not getting there; seem to recall that on back axles, as well as choice of 10 & 24 spline, there's also a choice of sliding flange or forged/rolled flange, one one, other or both; that's by far the stronger part, and if running V8 grunt through it, worth having, but may mean changing the diff...
 
No, shouldn't be any 'play', should be a 'tight' sliding fit on teh splines on the rear.
You running that pancake and pumper V8 through it?
Check Ascrofts site, trying to rack my brains over the specs, but not getting there; seem to recall that on back axles, as well as choice of 10 & 24 spline, there's also a choice of sliding flange or forged/rolled flange, one one, other or both; that's by far the stronger part, and if running V8 grunt through it, worth having, but may mean changing the diff...


the axle has only seen a 2 1/4 petrol as far as i'm aware but the axles are in pretty bad shape all round. i've already fitted 24 spline front half shafts/flanges i got off my donor so i'll see what i can get for the rear! the chasis is currently engineless but one day i'll get that v6 in me sig plumbed in (i've finally finished rebuilding it after about 18months!!) cheers!!
 
disco axles as I'm aware are 10 spline, except the 300tdi disco which is 24 spline.

And the salisbury is a diffo thing altogether,

Am i right, that'll rack yer brain.
 
I'm not very familiar with coil sprung axles, but I belive the main problem with fitting the front axle to a leaf sprung Land-Rover is that the track rod fouls the springs. Is it not possible to have a heavy duty track rod made up which is not straight but curves up from under the diff over the leaf springs, and back down to the track rod arms?
 
a friend`s friend has got a comp motor and went to an engernearing ferm to have a steering arm moded and they wouldnt do because since that 110 went in that lake and killed them kids some one like vosa has sent letters to all them kinds of comanys telling them not to mod or make steering parts for land rovers as that had been altered.
 
a friend`s friend has got a comp motor and went to an engernearing ferm to have a steering arm moded and they wouldnt do because since that 110 went in that lake and killed them kids some one like vosa has sent letters to all them kinds of comanys telling them not to mod or make steering parts for land rovers as that had been altered.

I remember reading about that accident - nasty, but I think that as long as a curved track rod was strong enough and didn't foul anything it would be a less radical mod than putting wedges between the springs and axle which would alter the steering geometry and so affect the handling of the vehicle.
 
I remember reading about that accident - nasty, but I think that as long as a curved track rod was strong enough and didn't foul anything it would be a less radical mod than putting wedges between the springs and axle which would alter the steering geometry and so affect the handling of the vehicle.

I have 'aluded' to 'that' case before, on threads about brake or steering mods, but I've just noted I haven't done so here; Chap in question is called Gresh, Steve Gresham, and he's currently serving four years.

The Land-Rover in question was a V8 110, and the 'modifications' were not 'extreme','Yello110' was his every-day family car, and boasted little more than a proprietry lift kit and a safety devices external roll cage.

The actual 'accident' was a 'freak' compound of unfortunate circumstances, the most significant 'failure' the rear near-side radius arm baracket fracturing.

Gresh was returning from a P&P site, he had the family in the car, and on a B-road, wide enough for two vehicles, found himself aproaching a mini-bus towing a trailer stacked with canoes.

The driver of that vehicle, I presume, from accounts was not confident towing that trailer, and was 'hogging' the middle of the cariageway; Gresh, aproaching expected the minibus to use the room he had on his near side to make room for both vehicles, while Gresh did likewise. The mini-bus, though, did NOT move over, and Gresh went onto the soft verge to avoid collission.

Striking a pot-hole in the soft verge, the suspension hanger snapped, dropping the body on that side of the vehicle, which with the slope of the verge, and the loss of control, saw the 110 'roll'.

The cage would have protected the occupants from seriouse harm as it went over, BUT the verge was a river bank, and the truck rolled into it.

The scenario is not dissimilar to hundreds any of us have been in, but compounding of unfortunate circumstances resulted in tradgedy.

I have known Gresh, through the forums a long time, and we both had LWB Landrovers to accomodate large families; we both built them at about the same time, & ran them and maintained them on the budgeds demanded while supporting a large family, and we both used them for family recreation, including off-roading.

In my case, I had an SIII 109, which as Gresh's 110 could equally have been described as 'Cobled together from parts canabalised from numerouse wrecked or abandoned vehicles'... I prefered to call it a 'restoration utilising second hand parts'...

As Gresh, my 109 was 'modified for off-roading' and could have been described as 'Modified and adapted to engage in off-road driving beyond the original design parameters of the vehicle'...... I called it a set of parabolic springs and 235/85 Radial all terains on wider off-set 7" modulars.....

I had also added 'protection' for the occupants, my family; Gresh fitted a full external roll cage, I fitted full rally harnesses.

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This happened on one of our first outings; the circumstances were almost Identical to Gresh's; A Dihatsu Fourtrack was aproaching in the opposite direction; I pulled over, expecting the Dihatsu driver to do likewise and make room for both vehicles. He didn't, despite the fact that there was more clerance on his side of the road, AND a passing place he could have pulled into, but ignored. I pulled over further and further to avoid collision, and 'dropped' the nearside wheels into an overgrown ditch. The Dihatsu driver carried on regardless.

In my case, I was 'lucky' nothing broke, I was luckier still, I was on the 'high' side of the hill we were traversing, and merely leaned against the bank, and didn't roll, and I was 'lucky' that there wasn't a river anywhere for us to roll into.......

And it is co-incidence that I had actually JUST fitted the parabolics, after having the car MOT'd and taking it away to sort the 'niggle' of a headlamp without enough chrome on the reflector..... and returning for retest to have it failed for an axle U-bolt snapping in the four miles between the MOT station and my house and back again.....

IF that U-bolt hadn't let go on those few miles, the suspension wouldn't have been replaced, and Just as in Gresh's case where the broken radius arm hanger snapped, just a few weeks after MOT, my Axle restraints could have likewise 'gone' at any time.........

Had the combination of unfortnate cicumstances conspired against me, as they did against Gresh, I have no doubt that some-one could have put as much 'unfavourable spin' on the 'facts' as they did in Gresh's case, possibly even more......

There, but for the grace of, go I.......

And I am sure MANY MANY others, driving older vehicles, whether modified or not.

I dont want to go through the nitty-gritty of the case; the evidence was significantly slighted by the terminology used, and facts that were of little or no relevence were presented as though they were causal factors in the calamity.

For the most part Gresh was little different to any other Landy enthusiast, and waded in fixing and fettling his vehicles as many of us do, with enthusiasm, and utilising his skill as a trained vehicle technician to adapt them were he could with the facilities and materials he could procure.

And he believed, that the mods he had done to his vehicle were 'safe', that the roll cage improved safety for his family, and thet his car, recieving frequent, enthusiastic maintenence and repairs, was in a more road-worthy condition than many older cars who only recieved attension once a year when they failed thier MOT.

And I suspect most of us would have similar conviction in our handy-work........

But would a jury of your peers, NOT familiar with Land-Rover mechanics be convinced, IF you were as unfortunate?

It serves as a warning, and not wanting to be too pessamistic, and use it to suggest that we CANT do anything to our Landies, it does hold up a big yellow 'caution' flag for us to stop and think long and hard about them.

It suggests we need to make ourselves very familiar with the MOT standards and C&U regulations, and try, where possible to work to the highest appliciable standards, rather than relying on 'grandad-rights' for older vehicles;

And to my mind it certainly suggests that where we DO do stuff, we ought to be looking at the SVA (or whatever they are calling it this week!) as our 'friend' and getting VOSPA to give us an 'all-clear' that they aren't 'worried' by any mods, rather than trying to avoid the 'hassle' of certification, and possible re-registration.

BUT, I think that the real morral of the case is that we need to be inordinately careful of all those contributing 'little' risks, all the stuff we DONT think is a big problem, and put off until pay-day or whatever.

Becouse, irrespective of the verdict in the Gresham case, the FACTS of the tragedy is that there was NO single cause, but hundreds of reletively inconsequential ones that added up to one HUGE calamity.
 
so what was the crime he was convicted of then?.
Sorry, its not four years, its two, there was a half sentence thing so I doubles the two to get four, if you see what I mean.
Actual charge was causing death by wreckless driving; after a lot of argy-barging where they had apparently wanted to go for involuntary manslaughter or causing death through negligence.
Was it determined what caused the radius arm mount to fracture?
In the court evidence, it was merely stated that the bracket fractured, while it was 'suggested' that the standards of maintenence were insufficient, ie it was rusty, while pointing to the lift kit and cage as an 'ill-advised and dangerouse' set of modifications, suggesting that the lift kit possibly over-loaded the bracket.
The central part of tyhe procecutions arguments though centred on the idea that fitting the roll cage and the lift had riased the CofG sufficiently to CAUSE the car to roll down the bank, significantly ignoring the mechanical failure, while trying to portray the standard of the vehicle so as to suggest that Gresh was an entirely irresponsible thrill seeker, modfifying the car dangerousely, looking for off-road kicks.
Unfortunately, the radius hanger it is NOT an uncommon failure that afflicts older lifted land-rovers, where the hanger has 'dished' around the nominal for standard ride height, so when a lift kit is added, the bushes dont sit square, and the uneven loading sees the bracket eventually fail from stress fatigue.... first becouse it is old and worn, second becouse its probably being expected to handle higher loads than it ever has, and third, becouse those loads arn't spread evenly accross the bracket due to the old wear dishing being on a different centre to the new nominal when lifted.
And it occurs inordinately more often on vehicles that are fitted with poly-bushes when the lift kit is added, as they offer less complience, hence transfering more stress to the mountings. So much so, that in my opinion, its not so much an 'occurence' as an eventual inevitability.
I dont know if Yello110 was polybushed.
Lift kits and poly-bushes are another of my hobby horses and I urge huge caution over either, BUT, common perception is its entirely 'acceptable' and as long as all the mags kep showing lifted Landies and flashy pics of poly-bush kits and people keep fitting them up in ignoirance and saying thing slike 'great, best thing I ever done, never had a problem'........ people will keep fitting them, and hangers will keep breaking!
But so far....... it only seems to have been this ONE instance where the combination of circumstances has lead to tradjedy, most dont see the sort of 'load' that kicks them off the chassis 'on the road' so they would normally only give out at a P&P, with far less drastic consequences..... we hope.
 
B@ll@x, not to what you say teffy to the whole situation.

The fact this chap fitted a roll cage showed that he'd taken a precaution to the occupants of the car, a adrenaline junkie that didnt care would have spent the cash on something else.
Personally allthough I'm biased it sounds very unreasonable, and if what you say is true whats wreckless driving got to do with it, and yes lift kits are commercially available, if they were banned due to being dangerous I'd understand it, instead they are very popular.
Warning heeded there though. If I ever fit lifters I'll make sure the rest of the susp is ok.
I had a defender, a works car when I worked for the leccy board, they said it was a 'german axle', probably just a nickname, but it was well lifted not totally sure but looked about 6" at least, what would this have used, would it have been safe, certainly had the thing down a few tracks.
 
Gresh's case is actually a lot worse than you think; he lost his four youngest children in that accident; and the stresses of the court proceedings lead his wife to leave him with the two of the surviving children..... THEN they put him away.......

It came under wreckless driving becouse the altrnatives are under a different set of legal statutes and demand a higher standard of proof; under wreckless driving, the fact that the car 'crashed' was enough to suggest culpability, it was merely a a case of who to blame, hence the case centering on painting Gresh as a thrill seeking adrenaline junkie..... who endangered his passengers by not ensuring the vehicle he drove was roadworthy, and I hate to say it, he didn't do himself too many favours; they presented 'evidence' taken from his own web-site, and a little GIF animation of Yello110 going air-borne off a hump at a P&P was NOT advantageouse to his case! Of course fact that it was at the end of a climb he'd had to 'blast' to get enough momentum to get up, was not mentioned.... they just let the pictures speak for themselves.....

6 inch lift and 'German' axles suggests a Portal conversion; not sure that they are actually German, think they are actually Dutch, and originally fitted to the Unimog, for which the rights were aquired by Mercedes, but doesn't matter.

They have a set of drop cogs on the end of the axles, lifting the axle away from the hub giving I think 4" more clerence under the diff. Drop cogs usually have a lot of reduction in them to compensate for big wheels, but also allow the drive train to run a lot less reduction so the shafts turn faster, transmitting power as revs not torque all the way to the drop gears, so the loadings on the half shafts etc is a lot lower; hence they are supposed to be a lot tougher. Depends on the reduction set in them though, and the wheel-size.

Theres a chap in the UK that specialises in Portal conversions, and there have been a couple featured in the mags 'UK's tallest disco' I seem to recall being one of them.

Very useful bit of kit, and for an extreme off-roader or challenge truck, a very good way to go, but they do have a number of peculiarities, apart from giving a monster lift and very high CofG.

One of them is location for the off-set axle, which will try and twist about the wheel like any other axle, but has the added leverage of the off-set to magnify the torque reaction inordinately; They also have a 'floating hub' at the font, becouse of the steering geometry, so the front wheel actually slides in an out as you steer; means that in theory, you get more clerance for big wheels at full lock, as well as compensating for severe 'scrub' effects..... practically makes straight line stability a 'bit iffy'.....

Intended for the Unimog, a 'fast tractor' that could just about achieve 45mph, on tractor tyres, and then not very often, these things were not of huge consequence.... on a 90mph road vehicle, they are a LITTLE more important!

Leccy board, I seem to recall used to use Unimogs for site access, and pretty sure they had unimog cherry pickers for line inspection and overhead work; would make sense them using Mog axles on a 110... but wouldn't stake anything on it.

There's a couple of blokes round here with Leccy board 110's, and they look a lot taller than standard, on BFG tyres and cheqeur plate bodyguards, and the rear tubs lockered out. Winch bumper I think gives most impression of 'beef' and then the rest just follows.

Pulled along side in my Rangie, and they aren't actually THAT tall, possibly no more than HD springs.
 
I spose its the old saying **** happens, the thing is justice is sposed to be exactly that, using pictures to show the guy was a hooligan when he wasnt, ie the flying picture is nothing but a perversion of the law, off roading isnt illegal so taking off in a land rover isnt.
Dunno whether mine was a german, I dont think there was any offset on the axles, the wheels were on the centreline, was a good truck though I had racks in the back and a generator on the engine as well as a compressor with air & power sockets front and rear.
Gonna put a engine driven welder on this one (modded alty) and I have a westinghouse compressor off an old clydesdale ready to go.
 
Gresh's case is actually a lot worse than you think; he lost his four youngest children in that accident; and the stresses of the court proceedings lead his wife to leave him with the two of the surviving children..... THEN they put him away.......

It came under wreckless driving becouse the altrnatives are under a different set of legal statutes and demand a higher standard of proof; under wreckless driving, the fact that the car 'crashed' was enough to suggest culpability, it was merely a a case of who to blame, hence the case centering on painting Gresh as a thrill seeking adrenaline junkie..... who endangered his passengers by not ensuring the vehicle he drove was roadworthy, and I hate to say it, he didn't do himself too many favours; they presented 'evidence' taken from his own web-site, and a little GIF animation of Yello110 going air-borne off a hump at a P&P was NOT advantageouse to his case! Of course fact that it was at the end of a climb he'd had to 'blast' to get enough momentum to get up, was not mentioned.... they just let the pictures speak for themselves.....

6 inch lift and 'German' axles suggests a Portal conversion; not sure that they are actually German, think they are actually Dutch, and originally fitted to the Unimog, for which the rights were aquired by Mercedes, but doesn't matter.

They have a set of drop cogs on the end of the axles, lifting the axle away from the hub giving I think 4" more clerence under the diff. Drop cogs usually have a lot of reduction in them to compensate for big wheels, but also allow the drive train to run a lot less reduction so the shafts turn faster, transmitting power as revs not torque all the way to the drop gears, so the loadings on the half shafts etc is a lot lower; hence they are supposed to be a lot tougher. Depends on the reduction set in them though, and the wheel-size.

Theres a chap in the UK that specialises in Portal conversions, and there have been a couple featured in the mags 'UK's tallest disco' I seem to recall being one of them.

Very useful bit of kit, and for an extreme off-roader or challenge truck, a very good way to go, but they do have a number of peculiarities, apart from giving a monster lift and very high CofG.

One of them is location for the off-set axle, which will try and twist about the wheel like any other axle, but has the added leverage of the off-set to magnify the torque reaction inordinately; They also have a 'floating hub' at the font, becouse of the steering geometry, so the front wheel actually slides in an out as you steer; means that in theory, you get more clerance for big wheels at full lock, as well as compensating for severe 'scrub' effects..... practically makes straight line stability a 'bit iffy'.....

Intended for the Unimog, a 'fast tractor' that could just about achieve 45mph, on tractor tyres, and then not very often, these things were not of huge consequence.... on a 90mph road vehicle, they are a LITTLE more important!

Leccy board, I seem to recall used to use Unimogs for site access, and pretty sure they had unimog cherry pickers for line inspection and overhead work; would make sense them using Mog axles on a 110... but wouldn't stake anything on it.

There's a couple of blokes round here with Leccy board 110's, and they look a lot taller than standard, on BFG tyres and cheqeur plate bodyguards, and the rear tubs lockered out. Winch bumper I think gives most impression of 'beef' and then the rest just follows.

Pulled along side in my Rangie, and they aren't actually THAT tall, possibly no more than HD springs.
OOHHH A gresh supporter, not many of them round.Still thats been covered now.
 
OOHHH A gresh supporter, not many of them round.Still thats been covered now.

FFS didn't you know Gresh has been nominated for Sainthood by the pope. Or as least that's what his supporters would have us believe.

No mention of the bodged welding job on the bracket I see or the fact he battered his wife before she left him. Or that he's blaming her for the accident now."because she controlled the purse strings and forced him to carry out repairs using substandard parts" or that a couple of weeks previous to the fatal crash he had snapped the bracket at a pay & play ratchet strapped ity together, and still driven it home with all the kids in the back, in spite of his friends plea's not to do so or at least not to carry the kids in it in the state it was in. The guy has come across as an arrogant arsehole who blames everybody but himself for the killing of four beautiful young children.
 
FFS didn't you know Gresh has been nominated for Sainthood by the pope. Or as least that's what his supporters would have us believe.

No mention of the bodged welding job on the bracket I see or the fact he battered his wife before she left him. Or that he's blaming her for the accident now."because she controlled the purse strings and forced him to carry out repairs using substandard parts" or that a couple of weeks previous to the fatal crash he had snapped the bracket at a pay & play ratchet strapped ity together, and still driven it home with all the kids in the back, in spite of his friends plea's not to do so or at least not to carry the kids in it in the state it was in. The guy has come across as an arrogant arsehole who blames everybody but himself for the killing of four beautiful young children.
See post 55. where'd i leave that can of worms opener?:blabla:
 
FFS didn't you know Gresh has been nominated for Sainthood by the pope. Or as least that's what his supporters would have us believe.

No mention of the bodged welding job on the bracket I see or the fact he battered his wife before she left him. Or that he's blaming her for the accident now."because she controlled the purse strings and forced him to carry out repairs using substandard parts" or that a couple of weeks previous to the fatal crash he had snapped the bracket at a pay & play ratchet strapped ity together, and still driven it home with all the kids in the back, in spite of his friends plea's not to do so or at least not to carry the kids in it in the state it was in. The guy has come across as an arrogant arsehole who blames everybody but himself for the killing of four beautiful young children.

You are entitled to your opinion, and your interpretation of the 'facts' Red.....

The case was mentioned, I offered 'elaboration' on the circumstances, the 'facts' presented in court and the way they were used, and the lessons we MIGHT learn from them.

I never said Gresh was a saint, nor that some of the 'stuff' he did with his landies was entirely wise, & in fact, I WAS one of those 'freinds' that had critasised him in the past for 'impromptu' repairs.

HOWEVER, the kind of 'stuff' Gresh got up to, was not a lot different to very many other Landy-fans; and I can think of plenty of analegeouse situations where I have 'limped' my car home with a problem, and I'm sure many others can too, if they are honest with themselves.

In the judges summing up, he described Gresh and Yello110 as an 'accident waiting to happen', and on that point I didn't actually disagree, for the simple reason that Gresh simple did more of the stuff we all do, more often.

Familairity breeds contempt, and when we take chances, and we all do, and get away with them, experience teaches us that we can ignore them, becouse it's ALWAYS been alright in the past.

But, a risk is a risk, doesn't matter how many times in a row a coin falls heads up, doesn't mean it will ALWAYS fall heads up; still a 50;50 change it will fall tails.

What was tragic in Gresh's case was that ALL the coins fell against him in ONE throw. And THAT could happen to any of us.

I was actually incomunicado during the time the case was being argued and debated, due to problems in my own personal life; So I weighed up my opinion of the case on the facts presented, not second hand opinion or hearsay.

As for his personality and his personal life; that is another matter; and you are, entitled to your opinion. I simply stated 'facts'

As you said, its been covered now, and any-one considering whole-scale modification of thier Land-Rover using parts salvaged from a scrapped Disco can now weigh up the wisdom of thier plans, based on those facts.
 
anyhow....... back to the matter at hand...... many many landrovers have been converted in trials forms all the way back in the 80s loads were done on Range rover axles,


and teflon calm down a bit, and can ya change ya avatar it freaks me out and looks like a fookin serial killer!
 
As you said, its been covered now, and any-one considering whole-scale modification of thier Land-Rover using parts salvaged from a scrapped Disco can now weigh up the wisdom of thier plans, based on those facts.

I'm shortly to be one of those people. But the 90 will be on std height springs and wheels, and using std LR arms and linkages etc. However I will be cleaning and thoroughly inspecting all parts before they are fitted.
 
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