Defender Life Cycle Research.

dunning123 · Jun 21, 2018

I'm writing a life cycle assessment comparison between a Landrover Defender and Nissan Leaf for my postgrad dissertation.

This is basically a snowball idea from the statement that like half the defenders ever made are still in use. Its my thesis that this extension of use when considered in a products life cycle (along with JLR's closed loop manufacturing) will actually make the Defender a lot more environmentally conscious than most people would assume. Hence the comparison with the battery electric vehicle to help visualise that notion, as people see BEVs as environmentally friendly tech, if I can draw comparisons between that an a Defender I'm in business.

However I obviously need to reference where the statement of how many land rovers are still operating comes from but I can't remember, do any of you know?

Also if you have any other stories, info, journals or press releases you think may help prove this idea I would be proper grateful if you could point them in my direction. Cheers!!

Trench Rat · Jun 21, 2018

There's a website that you can enter a vehicle type and see how many are still taxed and on the road. Unfortunately that won't cover vehicles exclusively used on private land or vehicles SORNd. Also won't show total made but that shouldn't be too hard to find.

Trench Rat · Jun 21, 2018

http://www.howrareismycar.co.uk/

it does show sorn'd.

flat · Jun 21, 2018

You could contact Land Rover and get build figures maybe then cross reference that with how many are still taxed and on the road in the uk?

agew · Jun 21, 2018

Hope you get some useful stats - an interesting angle.

I'd steer clear of phrases such as '....like half the Defenders ever made...' and spell 'product's' correctly too as a suggestion ...... I know.... it was only a forum post ;-) Cheers, A

Trench Rat · Jun 21, 2018

agew said:
I'd steer clear of phrases such as '....like half the Defenders ever made...'

Seconding this.

Also are you doing just defenders? Or are you including pre defender 90/110/127? Series vehicles?

dunning123 · Jun 21, 2018

Trench Rat said:
Seconding this.

Also are you doing just defenders? Or are you including pre defender 90/110/127? Series vehicles?

Just defenders, attempting to include all pre-defender and series models would make the systems boundaries far too large. A comparison of the different variants could in itself be a whole distinct study!

Find this with even Defenders from 1990-2016 so may focus on post 2012 or more than likely just focus on 2016 itself (due to data constraints mainly).

Realistically it doesn't matter as using a Defender is more symbolic than anything, although the data will be relevant to it, its more the idea that when studied over a life cycle the distance (in an environmental sense) between 4x4's and a BEV isn't as large as the marketing would have you believe.

dunning123 · Jun 21, 2018

agew said:
Hope you get some useful stats - an interesting angle.

I'd steer clear of phrases such as '....like half the Defenders ever made...' and spell 'product's' correctly too as a suggestion ...... I know.... it was only a forum post ;-) Cheers, A

Trying to make sure people don't think I'm a nerd!

payydg · Jun 21, 2018

dunning123 said:
Just defenders, attempting to include all pre-defender and series models would make the systems boundaries far too large. A comparison of the different variants could in itself be a whole distinct study!

Find this with even Defenders from 1990-2016 so may focus on post 2012 or more than likely just focus on 2016 itself (due to data constraints mainly).

Realistically it doesn't matter as using a Defender is more symbolic than anything, although the data will be relevant to it, its more the idea that when studied over a life cycle the distance (in an environmental sense) between 4x4's and a BEV isn't as large as the marketing would have you believe.

I think that’s an interesting idea. What kind of post grad course is this? So you’ll be accounting for environmental costs in production of the two vehicles. Where are you getting that data from?

Also are you going to include environmental costs at end of life?

Kwakerman · Jun 22, 2018

payydg said:
I think that’s an interesting idea. What kind of post grad course is this? So you’ll be accounting for environmental costs in production of the two vehicles. Where are you getting that data from?

Also are you going to include environmental costs at end of life?

Good point, the rusty remains of a defender can be melted down, lithium batteries are a lot more difficult to recycle plus you have a lot more plastics in modern cars and plastic is the latest evil killer!

norseman · Jun 22, 2018

It's an interesting approach.
The results of a similar survey has been published before, though the theme then was environmental & compared the 'whole life' enviro. impact of both a Jeep Cherokee (4ltr. petrol) with a Toyota Prius. The figures took into account the manufacturing process, battery replacement/safe disposal of expired (Prius) pollution due to driving (Jeep) & end-of-life disposal of the vehicles. Surprisingly the milk float wasn't the saviour of the planet after all.
nb. apologies for mentioning J...p on the forum

brian47 · Jun 22, 2018

One thing that annoys me about so-called "green, pollution free" devices such as electric cars is the "tree huggers" seem to forget that there will always be a cost for energy generation, even if that cost seems to be hidden such as the amount of land that becomes unusable because it has a vast photo-voltaic solar energy collection station on it. All that electric vehicles do is move the pollution from the vehicle tailpipe to the smoke stack at the power station.

Clunkbucket · Jun 22, 2018

I wonder how long it will be until someone comes up with a commercially available electric conversion for older Land Rovers and we all begin ripping out the TDI's and dropping in electric motors?
A vehicle that can be re-invented this way several times must be extremely green!

Disco1BFG · Jun 22, 2018

norseman said:
It's an interesting approach.
The results of a similar survey has been published before, though the theme then was environmental & compared the 'whole life' enviro. impact of both a Jeep Cherokee (4ltr. petrol) with a Toyota Prius. The figures took into account the manufacturing process, battery replacement/safe disposal of expired (Prius) pollution due to driving (Jeep) & end-of-life disposal of the vehicles. Surprisingly the milk float wasn't the saviour of the planet after all.
nb. apologies for mentioning J...p on the forum

Agreed

There was also a Norwegian study which looked at the life cycle costs of a Hummer -v- Prius IIRC. The Hummer won hands down due largely to the massive cost of disposing of the Lithium batteries properly - I.E. to an inert safe condition .... easy to do this to any part of a Hummer..... rather more difficult with Lithium

. Ask Boeing, they know all about it

Again IIRC, they also considered "fueling" the prius with hydro electricity ....still a no go fir the same reasons

An Internet search should find it, unless the tree huggers have taken it down.

Energy density of batteries is currently way to low to be a practical alternative to fossil fuel, and, although some progress is being made, I'm not holding my breath

dunning123 · Jun 22, 2018

payydg said:
I think that’s an interesting idea. What kind of post grad course is this? So you’ll be accounting for environmental costs in production of the two vehicles. Where are you getting that data from?

Also are you going to include environmental costs at end of life?

Environmental management.

Will be looking at material procurement, component manufacturing and assembly,
Use and end of use (recycling). For both defender and bev.

Data from sustainability reports and annual reports. With life cycle analysis a lot of assumptions have to be made so include industry standards on say carbon costs of electricity and material procurement and recycling methods e.c.t

Have contacted both landrover and Nissan to try get some raw data but Nissan don't seem so keen to give it up...

windy81 · Jun 22, 2018

going back to what Edison suggested back in the AC vs DC days of locally produced electric, everything local..... not imported grapes from south Africa and so on

payydg · Jun 22, 2018

dunning123 said:
Environmental management.

Will be looking at material procurement, component manufacturing and assembly,
Use and end of use (recycling). For both defender and bev.

Data from sustainability reports and annual reports. With life cycle analysis a lot of assumptions have to be made so include industry standards on say carbon costs of electricity and material procurement and recycling methods e.c.t

Have contacted both landrover and Nissan to try get some raw data but Nissan don't seem so keen to give it up...

Sounds interesting please do keep us updated.

payydg · Jun 22, 2018

windy81 said:
going back to what Edison suggested back in the AC vs DC days of locally produced electric, everything local..... not imported grapes from south Africa and so on

Also glad to hear another Suffolk boy is doing well for himself.

Al2O3 · Jun 23, 2018

I'm just thinking out loud here............
I would have thought the statement about 50%-70% (whatever it is) of all original Land Rovers still being on the road will be referring to the series, 90, 110, and early Defenders. It's a time referenced statement and is often quoted to include the statement 'ever made'.
The LR technology is sustainable because it is of a type that is maintainable by motor engineering enthusiasts. How maintainable are the Leaf's lithium batteries? I've no idea. If it became a classic, cult vehicle kept alive by enthusiasts, how often would you expect to have to change the batteries? I have a young Defender at 22yrs, would the original batteries still be fine in a 22yr old Leaf?
How are you going to compare the fuel/energy efficiencies? Generating electricity in a power station is very inefficient, transporting electricity through cables is also very inefficient. Extracting oil and then diesel from it and transporting it must also be inefficient. Tricky stuff, but very interesting. Good luck with the study and dissertation.

JimS · Jun 23, 2018

windy81 said:
going back to what Edison suggested back in the AC vs DC days of locally produced electric, everything local..... not imported grapes from south Africa and so on

Small Modular Reactors, coming to a field near you...
http://www.rolls-royce.com/products...0q5DcIurVOowJCWwH_nPfEKvDpoityEgaArmLEALw_wcB

We need to get the energy generation sorted and the battery technology safer, more durable and more efficient than the current lithium gel packs before EV's become a rational, not an emotional purchase

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