Clutch Noise

Hello everyone

I hope that someone will be able to help me please. I have looked through the forum to see if my problem has been covered before but can't find anything, so I apologise if I've missed it and am repeating stuff.

I have a 1999 Defender TD5 110. I have not had it all that long and it's the first LR I've ever had. From a short time after I bought it I noticed a vibrating/whirring noise coming from the clutch/gearbox area.

It only happens when I press the clutch pedal down (it goes away when the pedal is released (although it whirs fastest of all when the pedal is about half-way down). It also only happens at all when the vehicle hasn't been used for a few hours and only during the first 5 mins or so after starting, when everything is cold. Once I have travelled even a mile down the road everything is ok for the rest of the journey, until the next time I leave it standing for long enough and then it starts again and so on.

I have been to my local garage who have put a new clutch kit in and replaced the thrust bearing, but it is still happening.

I have been told by the garage that Defender TD5's will often do this in the specific conditions mentioned above, and it is "just the way they are sometimes, it's nothing to worry about".

I don't know whether others do this or not as I don't know anyone locally that I can ask. At least no one without vested interests. The garage might be just saying that because they don't want the hassle of taking it all apart again free of charge for not fixing it the first time.


It's the only problem I have with the clutch area. Changing gear etc is fine at all times. It's just the noise and vibration during those first few minutes, when the pedal is pressed down (up till now anyway). It's really embarrasing when I start up to go home in the office car park, when it's been standing all day. I think people are afraid it's going to blow up or something.

Has anyone else experienced this, and does anyone have any ideas as to what it might be ?

I have also hear people mention 'dry splines' and 'rust on the input shsaft' whatever those things are (mechanics is not really my thing, I just want to get it fixed and enjoy using it).

If it's relevant to helping me, it has NEVER once happened for longer than the first 5 mins. After that time it's as good as gold.

Thanks very much for any help.

So you had a complete clutch kit fitted and it still makes this noise, if it had NOT had the new kit in I would have said it was a release baring noise you were hearing, however if its been replaced then it should be brand new and not making any noise, either they did NOT fit the new kit they said they did, or the fault is something to do with the thrust bearing but I doubt that unless your TD5 has done a large milage.

Hi discomania

Thanks for your reply. That was quick ! I had onl just finished typing it !

It has done about 90,000 miles which I don't think is exceptionally high really (although obviously I'm no expert).

In the other threads I read before posting, most people's problems seem to occur when the pedal is RELEASED and stop when it is pressed down, whereas mine is the other way around. It's really wierd.

I'm a sure as I can be that they will have replaced the bits they say they have. I have used the garage with other cars I have had in the past and they have always been pretty good before.
When I bought it it had a knackered transfer box and I got it a bit cheaper than the going rate. Tha has now been replaced as well, which I think (correct me if I'm wrong) involves taking the engine out anyway, so it wouldn't really save them that much extra work to only pretend they had changed the clutch when they had to already have it in bits anyway.

I'm all out of ideas

but thanks for coming back to me anyway.

The engine doesn't need to come out to drop the transfer box, in older LR's it was easier to take the engine out to change the clutch because there were 2 wires and some pipes, but the likes of the TD5 its a mass of junk that needs to be disconnected and taken out as well. If they wanted the transfer box out they should only have taken the gearboxes out to split the transfer box off it and replace it.

So it ONLY makes the noise when the pedal is pressed?

Please bear in mind that I don't know the first thing about it, so I totally accept your wisdom regarding the xfer box replacement etc. It was only my guess that they needed to take the engine out, but based on what you've said it looks like they probably wouldn't have after all...so that's something I've learned today

Yes it ONLY makes the noise when the pedal is depressed NEVER when it's fully released, and even then only when everything has been standing for at least 6 or 7 hours (often it needs even longer than that)
And it's at it's worst when the pedal is half-way down. So....

pedal up = ok
pedal fully down = whirring
pedal 1/2 down = whirring slightly faster than when fully down

Unless it is the release bearing (which makes noises and symptoms as you describe) , the next Suspect might be a dry input shaft pilot bearing (the bush in the flywheel).

I am dubious about dry splines on the gearbox input shaft to clutch centre plate.

What you need to consider is this:

Whatever is making that noise does not do it when all the bits are turning at the same speed, like when the clutch is UP.

When the clutch pedal is DOWN, the engine and clutch cover rotate at engine speed, but the clutch centre plate and gearbox input shaft it is splined on rotate at some other speed. That is why you have a clutch.

However, what you describe is exactly what a release bearing sounds like when it gets noisy.

I suggest you try not to be neurotic about this, but DO report it to the garage that did the work, best in a little letter, and keep a copy.

Then drive on and try to ignore it.

CharlesY

Sounds to me like it could be a bi-mass fly wheel problem!

Bit late now though cos it's been in bit's once! Did they check it?

Hi CharlesY

Assuming that the release bearing has genuinely been done (and I'm as certain as I can be that it has), your idea about the dry input shaft pilot bearing may be worth me mentioning to the garage.

IF it is this, do you know what are typically the long-term consequences of this. Is it something that will one day fail on me and I won't be able to engage gears or something, or will it probably never be aynthing more than an annoying noise without anything more serious happening ?

The reason I'm thinking you may br on to something is that I have heard someone else mention input shaft 'bushes' as a possible cause and it seems too much of a coincidence that you have suggested the same thing. The only difference is that someone has obviously been b/s'ing me about it being a common thing for this make and model, as it sounds as though no one on here so far has it happening on their vehicles.

But as as I say, the main thing is...is it just an inconsequential noise or does it have serious mechanical implications in the long term (assuming it's what you've suggested).

Hi Jason2

Thanks for your suggestion. I don't know if they checked that or not. I think I'm going to have to get back to them again and be a bit more demanding for more detail on what they actually did.

I have a fairly detailed parts list of what has been replaced, with part numbers etc for each item, but there's not so much info on what was actually looked at and worked on, only the parts used for replacement (although it does mention some new bushes, but I guess there are loads of those all over the place).

When I first reported thte problem, the garage owner suggested release bearing as the most likely cause, so I'm guessing that's the reason he just automatically replaced the whole clutch kit, and just put it all back together at that.
When I phoned next week to say it was still happening he just said if wasn't the release bearing after all, it must just be rust on the input shaft "they all do that as they get older". Now I'm wondering if that was b/s to save him having to take it all apart again to continue looking for the problem.

It's all hassle isn't it. Maybe I should buy a scooter instead and just ponce around like Jamie Oliver or something
But in fairness this is the only real problem I've got with it now. Everything else is great.

anyone that sez " that all do that" usually int got a clue what is causing it. notable exceptions include 1.8 gaylanders blowing HG's

Springer5 said:

Hi CharlesY

Assuming that the release bearing has genuinely been done (and I'm as certain as I can be that it has), your idea about the dry input shaft pilot bearing may be worth me mentioning to the garage.

IF it is this, do you know what are typically the long-term consequences of this. Is it something that will one day fail on me and I won't be able to engage gears or something, or will it probably never be aynthing more than an annoying noise without anything more serious happening ?

The reason I'm thinking you may br on to something is that I have heard someone else mention input shaft 'bushes' as a possible cause and it seems too much of a coincidence that you have suggested the same thing. The only difference is that someone has obviously been b/s'ing me about it being a common thing for this make and model, as it sounds as though no one on here so far has it happening on their vehicles.

But as as I say, the main thing is...is it just an inconsequential noise or does it have serious mechanical implications in the long term (assuming it's what you've suggested).

Click to expand...

Well, in the long run things can go wrong if that bearing fails badly.
The pilot bearing only "runs when the clutch is disengaged, and it must allow the gearbox pilot shaft to spin with minimum drag or the gears won't engage freely. There are serious consequences if the bearing (a plain bush in TD5 ) siezes up, and it could eventually damage the crankshaft or the pilot shaft or both. These are very UNcommon however.

Moral - NEVER sit for any length of time with the clutch pedal down.
Get neutral and let the clutch pedal up as soon as possible.
Remember, the release bearing takes quite a shove to free the clutch, and if you hold the pedal down the bearing will heat up, lose its lube, and fair sooner.

TD5 has a dual-mass flywheel, of which I have no experience (yet). My TD5 Disco must have one. First time the clutch gets done I will fit a solid flywheel.

It was mentioned that this might cause your noise. I don't know, but I find it hard to imagine how it could.

I feel your best shot is to speak to the garage, let them drive the car with you in it and listen to the noise, and see what they think.

Other possible causes are worn crankshaft thrust washers at the #3 main bearing cap, but that would be a horror situation and could not have resulted from the work the garage did ... surely not?

I think we would all like to know what it is.

CharlesY

it was nice of the garage to fit a new clutch and bearing and then tell you it is common for them to make said noise.

Them there bi-mass flywheels are full of springs and stuff, with the first ones prone to breaking up with subsequent racket & vibrations at tick over.

Once again not just a Land Rover thing Volkswagens bust em for fun all the time too!

Somebody will be inventing a square wheel soon

Right, now we're making progress !!

I have spoken the guys at the garage who have told me that the pilot bearing was on the job list to be changed at the same time as everything else, because it was considered as a possible problem basied on the symptoms I had described (although I hadn't specifially asked for this - until I spoke to you guys I didn't even know what one was!), and according to their records it was replaced as they had intended.

However, having pointed out that whether they changed it or not the point is that the problem still exists, they have now agreed to take the Defender back in and strip it down again to check everything over free of charge.

So at least there's hope for some success at the end of this - fingers crossed that they find it this time.

Big thanks to everyone for helping me out. I appreciate it !!

looks like it could be a result - good one!

Keep calm now! You are on a roll ....

As the car is driving OK, I suggest you ask the garage to listen to it themselves, and then that you offer to drive the car a week to see if it settles down. It probably won't, but at least you will have shown more than willing. If they insist the car goes in. go for it, because that probably means they know damn fine they blew it by not bothering to do the spigot bearing bush.

I think there's a probable issue with that spigot bearing, like far too much clearance in it or the buggwer has come loose.

What do the TD5 experts think about getting rid of the dual mass flywheel while it's out next time?

CharlesY

Hi again

Yes, CharlesY that's good advice. thanks.

It's booked in for them to look at this coming Wednesday (31st) so I'll drive it with someone in there with me and see what they have to say.
The part your refering to, is it called a spigot bearing or pilot bearing or bush or what. I'm a bit confused as several terms have been used. If I know the actual precise term I can include that in my discussion with them and know I'm definately talking about the right part.

It's a good point CharlesY made about flywheel types as well as this would obviously be a good time to nail any future problems there while I'm at it (I'll check other postings on that subject as well).

Thanks again guys. Please keep any advice you have coming, and I'll let you know the outcome of next week's garage visit on this thread.

Cheers

Springer5 said:

Hi again

Yes, CharlesY that's good advice. thanks.

It's booked in for them to look at this coming Wednesday (31st) so I'll drive it with someone in there with me and see what they have to say.
The part your refering to, is it called a spigot bearing or pilot bearing or bush or what. I'm a bit confused as several terms have been used. If I know the actual precise term I can include that in my discussion with them and know I'm definately talking about the right part.

It's a good point CharlesY made about flywheel types as well as this would obviously be a good time to nail any future problems there while I'm at it (I'll check other postings on that subject as well).

Thanks again guys. Please keep any advice you have coming, and I'll let you know the outcome of next week's garage visit on this thread.

Cheers

Click to expand...

It's called a "Spigot bearing" and it goes in the end of the crank shaft and the gearbox main shaft run's in it!

Dont think that's what it is as noise would stop when you put your clutch in.

Just for info I changed mine on a 300tdi this summer (1995 with 130k) and it was not over worn, the gearbox main bearings had gone (amongst other things) and the main shaft was slopping about all over the place but wunt making a noise like yours at tick over-Driving was a different matter!

Jason2 said:

It's called a "Spigot bearing" and it goes in the end of the crank shaft and the gearbox main shaft run's in it!

Dont think that's what it is as noise would stop when you put your clutch in.

Click to expand...

That's exactly the wrong way round!

No matter what gear you are in or neutral, if the clutch pedal is UP the gearbox input shaft is running at exactly the same speed as the crankshaft, as they are solidly connected by the clutch.

When the clutch pedal is DOWN, the clutch is released, and there is NO drive connection between the crankshaft and the gearbox input shaft.

These two things meet at the spigot bearing, so when the clutch is DOWN there could be a big rotation speed difference between them, and if the spigot end of the gearbox input shaft is rattling loose in the bearing it might start making some quite nasty noises, and that means the bearing is being battered to bits even more.

If the car is stopped, in gear, clutch DOWN, with the engine running, the speed difference between the two parts is your full engine speed. It's a thought.

CharlesY

CharlesY said:

That's exactly the wrong way round!

No matter what gear you are in or neutral, if the clutch pedal is UP the gearbox input shaft is running at exactly the same speed as the crankshaft, as they are solidly connected by the clutch.

When the clutch pedal is DOWN, the clutch is released, and there is NO drive connection between the crankshaft and the gearbox input shaft.

These two things meet at the spigot bearing, so when the clutch is DOWN there could be a big rotation speed difference between them, and if the spigot end of the gearbox input shaft is rattling loose in the bearing it might start making some quite nasty noises, and that means the bearing is being battered to bits even more.

If the car is stopped, in gear, clutch DOWN, with the engine running, the speed difference between the two parts is your full engine speed. It's a thought.

CharlesY

Click to expand...

Absolutely correct Charlie , him wunt woke up this morning, but I'm going to beat myself with a stick all the same