Broken Timing Belt

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sorry for any confusion but i think its an error on your marks, im not quite sure which marks you have on your flywheel , if they are stamped EP and TDC or at all, but if your pistons are hitting the valves then the camshaft is in the wrong position when the piston is coming to TDC , if you have the cam wheel set right, then this interference this can only be as you have put the belt on with crank set on the wrong mark.

if you have TDC in the window EP is 109 deg BTDC


109Santana said:
My flywheel does not have EP marked on the flywheel mark as shown in the book, just the mark! Also I do not have a pointer in the window (I doubt it ever had). When I put the cylinder 1 at TDC the mark is exactly where the pointer would be (according to books) not where the locking tool would put it. Now I have the head off I can test....at TDC the mark is in the window - with tool locked in the crank is 2 teeth clockwise!
Click to expand...
mine didnt have pointer but i quickly made one to make things simpler
my slot did not locate in hole at either EP or TDC

109Santana said:
I then rotated the crank until the EP mark on the flywheel was in the hole on the flywheel housing and the special tool inserted and locked.

So, I now assume that the crank and the camshaft are both set at EP..........correct me if I'm wrong.
I also set the Distribution pump wheel lined up dot with arrow (this was calibrated with the special tool previously but verified again just for completeness).
Click to expand...

do you mean you inserted and locked tool into the flywheel slot or lined up with a mark and was this EP or TDC, the hole is there for slots and the marks are for viewing in the window against the arrow (if you had one or something similar)
 
steve2286w said:
sorry for any confusion but i think its an error on your marks, im not quite sure which marks you have on your flywheel , if they are stamped EP and TDC or at all, but if your pistons are hitting the valves then the camshaft is in the wrong position when the piston is coming to TDC , if you have the cam wheel set right, then this interference this can only be as you have put the belt on with crank set on the wrong mark.

if you have TDC in the window EP is 109 deg BTDC



mine didnt have pointer but i quickly made one to make things simpler
my slot did not locate in hole at either EP or TDC



do you mean you inserted and locked tool into the flywheel slot or lined up with a mark and was this EP or TDC, the hole is there for slots and the marks are for viewing in the window against the arrow (if you had one or something similar)
Click to expand...
Yep...understand all that...my flywheel has nothing written on it but the special tool fits perfectly through the hole in flywheel housing as per the manual.
So I am using that as EP according to the manual. I have checked that when the flywheel locked with the tool and the punch mark on camshaft is lined up with the arrow valve 1 is fully open. If I'm missing something please let me know.
 
steve2286w said:
sorry for any confusion but i think its an error on your marks, im not quite sure which marks you have on your flywheel , if they are stamped EP and TDC or at all, but if your pistons are hitting the valves then the camshaft is in the wrong position when the piston is coming to TDC , if you have the cam wheel set right, then this interference this can only be as you have put the belt on with crank set on the wrong mark.

if you have TDC in the window EP is 109 deg BTDC



mine didnt have pointer but i quickly made one to make things simpler
my slot did not locate in hole at either EP or TDC



do you mean you inserted and locked tool into the flywheel slot or lined up with a mark and was this EP or TDC, the hole is there for slots and the marks are for viewing in the window against the arrow (if you had one or something similar)
Click to expand...
The tool locks flywheel at just past TDC cylinder 1...if i then line up the camshaft pulley with the punch mark and put the belt on everything is great except when tappets set.
 
I just keep going backwards to square 1 when I started this post and so far I am not getting anywhere.....yes....the camshaft is in the wrong position when going by the book but I can only go by the book...I have arrows on the casing and punch marks on all three pulleys if I follow the book in either of the methods it does not work....the book is slightly confusing as it assumes the punch mark on Crank is somewhere near TDC or EP but it is nowhere near on mine...

Is there a different way ignoring all my marks???
 
109Santana said:
I just keep going backwards to square 1 when I started this post and so far I am not getting anywhere.....yes....the camshaft is in the wrong position when going by the book but I can only go by the book...I have arrows on the casing and punch marks on all three pulleys if I follow the book in either of the methods it does not work....the book is slightly confusing as it assumes the punch mark on Crank is somewhere near TDC or EP but it is nowhere near on mine...

Is there a different way ignoring all my marks???
Click to expand...
Sounds as if the flywheel notch is in the ballpark so the problem must be at the camshaft. I'd put the engine at TDC and turn the camshaft until the pushrods for #1 cyl are both at their lowest (assuming you've still got the rockers off). Then look for different marks that are getting close to aligning. Maybe put a picture up too.
 
Ok. my thinking (not knowing the engine).
So a few questions first.
1. At what point is the diesel pump locked to time, EP or TDC?

Oh that's it. Forget the marks know the answer to question 1 and the rest can be found manually.

J
 
boguing said:
Sounds as if the flywheel notch is in the ballpark so the problem must be at the camshaft. I'd put the engine at TDC and turn the camshaft until the pushrods for #1 cyl are both at their lowest (assuming you've still got the rockers off). Then look for different marks that are getting close to aligning. Maybe put a picture up too.
Click to expand...
Ok, thanks will try that. There are 2 lines marked on the camshaft pulley but I've ignored those as all timing instructions refer to the punch mark dots. I don't know if the marks are made by previous owner(s) but surely the pulley is mounted to the camshaft on a fixed position? It cannot change? So why would extra marks be needed???
It's getting more and more confusing (I'm not an engine person...but learning fast)
 
boguing said:
You'd think so, but what I'm hoping is that when you get in roughly the right place you notice something else that makes sense.
Click to expand...
Ok so I've put the Crank at tdc (verified) picture shows crank collet lined up with arrow.
I moved the camshaft round several times to get the 2 valves of cylinder 1 at their lowest (approximate for now) - I get one of the 'extra' marks roughly lined up with the arrow - see pic.
Should I put the belt back on and try the tappets again?
I know I'm clutching at straws but whatever, if it works I don't care!
Cheers,
 
109Santana said:
Ok so I've put the Crank at tdc (verified) picture shows crank collet lined up with arrow.
I moved the camshaft round several times to get the 2 valves of cylinder 1 at their lowest (approximate for now) - I get one of the 'extra' marks roughly lined up with the arrow - see pic.
Should I put the belt back on and try the tappets again?
I know I'm clutching at straws but whatever, if it works I don't care!
Cheers,
Click to expand...
 

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109Santana said:
The tool locks flywheel at just past TDC cylinder 1...if i then line up the camshaft pulley with the punch mark and put the belt on everything is great except when tappets set.
Click to expand...
i think you should ignore the locking of the flywheel as this wont help
edit (unless working to the later engine setup methodology )
 
Last edited:
109Santana said:
You can see the 3 marks I have on the camshaft pulley (sorry for quality) 2 lines and dot towards the top.
Click to expand...
on your pics above the cam wheel should be set to dot not lines according to manual , the crank pic is shown at TDC but you can see the dot that should be used at the 4 o clock position (this will be EP)

if crank turned to the dot can you see any marks in the flywheel housingwindow where pointer should be (and where you marked TDC)
 
steve2286w said:
on your pics above the cam wheel should be set to dot not lines according to manual , the crank pic is shown at TDC but you can see the dot that should be used at the 4 o clock position (this will be EP)

if crank turned to the dot can you see any marks in the flywheel housingwindow where pointer should be (and where you marked TDC)
Click to expand...
Hi....nope, if I line up the dot on crank there's nothing on flywheel (when I had it all in bits I cleaned the flywheel but the only thing is the groove for the special tool...no writing or other marks).
If I go to TDC (cylinder 1) the mark is perfectly in the window - the dot is somewhere near the bottom.
If I line up all the dots with the arrows and put the belt on (and rocker assembly on) I cannot set the tappets at all as the first open valve stops the piston.


Thanks
 
steve2286w said:
on your pics above the cam wheel should be set to dot not lines according to manual , the crank pic is shown at TDC but you can see the dot that should be used at the 4 o clock position (this will be EP)

if crank turned to the dot can you see any marks in the flywheel housingwindow where pointer should be (and where you marked TDC)
Click to expand...
Hi....nope, if I line up the dot on crank there's nothing on flywheel (when I had it all in bits I cleaned the flywheel but the only thing is the groove for the special tool...no writing or other marks).
If I go to TDC (cylinder 1) the mark is perfectly in the window - the dot is somewhere near the bottom.
If I line up all the dots with the arrows and put the belt on (and rocker assembly on) I cannot set the tappets at all as the first open valve stops the piston.
Going by the book has not worked so far.

Thanks
 
109Santana said:
I then rotated the crank until the EP mark on the flywheel was in the hole on the flywheel housing and the special tool inserted and locked.
Click to expand...
so when you do this is the punched dot on crank gear lined up with arrow on rear cover

if so thats good so you know TDC and EP can be found on the crank , then to double check EP dot on cam wheel does actually match Exhaust peak on no 1 as measured correctly by the DTI with head on and rockers on
 
Last edited:
steve2286w said:
on your pics above the cam wheel should be set to dot not lines according to manual , the crank pic is shown at TDC but you can see the dot that should be used at the 4 o clock position (this will be EP)

if crank turned to the dot can you see any marks in the flywheel housingwindow where pointer should be (and where you marked TDC)
Click to expand...
In that picture the crank/cam relationship looks right to me? I'll profess that I hate diesels and last did a belt on a 200tdi about 23 years ago. So no help on pump timing.
 
steve2286w said:
so when you do this is the punched dot on crank gear lined up with arrow on rear cover

if so thats good so you know TDC and EP can be found on the crank , then to double check EP dot on cam wheel does actually match Exhaust peak on no 1 as measured correctly by the DTI with head on and rockers on
Click to expand...
Hi thanks for the help....

No, when dot on crank is lined up the flywheel mark is nowhere to be seen...from my tests with head off the pistons are , maybe, half way down.
Valves are also not at ep - the only TDC and EP is when the crank collet is in line with the arrow and this was confirmed with the head off.
Cheers
 
So at this point slot not lined up with round hole
ok so i think you need to disregard the slot as i did , with crank gear dot aligned with pointer then that is at 109 degrees before top dead centre (EP) and you would expect all pistons to be about half way down.
you should mark the flywheel and on the cover in the window a mark to show EP when the front cover is on (tippex or dot punch)

keep the belt off for now

then you should replace head with rockers on and set gaps on cylinder one valves 1 and 2, then back off adjusters on all other valves so they all closed and wont touch pistons.

then you need to check EP on cam wheel with dti on top of rocker on no 1 correctly finding EP this should then align with the dot on cam wheel, if it doesn’t then that would be an issue
 
boguing said:
Sounds as if the flywheel notch is in the ballpark so the problem must be at the camshaft. I'd put the engine at TDC and turn the camshaft until the pushrods for #1 cyl are both at their lowest (assuming you've still got the rockers off). Then look for different marks that are getting close to aligning. Maybe put a picture up too.
Click to expand...
Ok.....some progress ....I think!!

I did as you suggested, put cylinder 1 at TDC (definitely know this is correct).

Rotated camshaft clockwise until pushrods of cylinder 1 are at their lowest (verified with dti).

One of the scored lines was pretty close to the arrow (possibly one tooth out) so I fitted the belt with this mark on the arrow and crank still at TDC. I have no idea who made this mark but it is not just a hacksaw mark - it looks machined!

Fitted the rocker assemble and started the setting tappets procedure.....I had NO problems with valves hitting pistons and was able to set all the tappets to 0.25mm.

So.......does this now mean that my crank-Camshaft timing is correct?
 
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