Mr E Green
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Automatic engine?
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Mr E Green
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Quick update:
In the case against the seller of the vehicle (sold as very good working order, but arrived with many problems including broken engine) I've been successful!
They've been ordered to pay compensation. Now it's a case of actually getting that money back... I'll let everyone know.
In the case against the garage that botched my engine swap, charged triple (£920) & claimed the engine was not the 'automatic' type, then when I complained made a counterclaim of more than £1000 more!. Basically the judge ordered the garage had to pay the appropriate fee, and swear their counterclaim was truthful... The garage declined to put their money where their mouth was. So waiting judges directions on that.
In the case against the seller of the vehicle (sold as very good working order, but arrived with many problems including broken engine) I've been successful!
They've been ordered to pay compensation. Now it's a case of actually getting that money back... I'll let everyone know.
In the case against the garage that botched my engine swap, charged triple (£920) & claimed the engine was not the 'automatic' type, then when I complained made a counterclaim of more than £1000 more!. Basically the judge ordered the garage had to pay the appropriate fee, and swear their counterclaim was truthful... The garage declined to put their money where their mouth was. So waiting judges directions on that.
Mr E Green
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Evening folks!
I finally got a court date in my case against the repairing/ruining garage.
Just going through their defence... They've gone from claiming i supplied a manual engine instead of the 'automatic type' to claiming i have a special automatic fuel pump!
They previously admitted neglecting to attach kickdown bracket and cable during engine swap. But instead of just swapping the bracket from old engine they swapped the entire fuel pump claiming it took 8 hours (and they still didn't get the timing right).
I believe both pumps are identical, I'll try to ad pics.
Can someone confirm these pumps are the same apart from the kickdown bracket?
Also what model of pumps are they? All numbers on them are identical but i can't see what model no.or type it is
Thanks
Edit: sorry it won't let me upload pics today but i already showed both pumps on page 2
I finally got a court date in my case against the repairing/ruining garage.
Just going through their defence... They've gone from claiming i supplied a manual engine instead of the 'automatic type' to claiming i have a special automatic fuel pump!
They previously admitted neglecting to attach kickdown bracket and cable during engine swap. But instead of just swapping the bracket from old engine they swapped the entire fuel pump claiming it took 8 hours (and they still didn't get the timing right).
I believe both pumps are identical, I'll try to ad pics.
Can someone confirm these pumps are the same apart from the kickdown bracket?
Also what model of pumps are they? All numbers on them are identical but i can't see what model no.or type it is
Thanks
Edit: sorry it won't let me upload pics today but i already showed both pumps on page 2
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chris-the-gerbil
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The auto pump is different to the manual - as are the injection pipes and the actual injectors themselves. Engines fitted to automatic Disco 1's are 122bhp rather than the manual 111bhp. This is to compensate for the power loss in the slushbox.
Also the automatics have a fly by wire electronic throttle and a proper engine management unit and mass air flow sensor unlike the manuals.
From what I remember they were talking about "cam lift" or something as a different between the engines. The only difference is the fuelling system - if you take a manual engine and fit the injection pump, injectors and pipes etc from an auto - then it's the same. So the engine swap which was what you had issues with as I recall should have been easy to do.
I bust my fuel pump 3 days before an international trip. Having never done this work before, and using basic tools and having to fabricate a crank holding tool, I swapped the entire injection pump over in four hours. That's a DIY guy in a home garage. So that should tell you if their 8 hour or whatever was "reasonable"
Also the automatics have a fly by wire electronic throttle and a proper engine management unit and mass air flow sensor unlike the manuals.
From what I remember they were talking about "cam lift" or something as a different between the engines. The only difference is the fuelling system - if you take a manual engine and fit the injection pump, injectors and pipes etc from an auto - then it's the same. So the engine swap which was what you had issues with as I recall should have been easy to do.
I bust my fuel pump 3 days before an international trip. Having never done this work before, and using basic tools and having to fabricate a crank holding tool, I swapped the entire injection pump over in four hours. That's a DIY guy in a home garage. So that should tell you if their 8 hour or whatever was "reasonable"
Mr E Green
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Is the model number somewhere on the pump body?
... Edit, answered my own question. Yes it's stamped on pump body
ERR 4046
Also thanks Chris but neither of my pumps is fly by wire/edc. Both are identical, mechanical pumps with the same number. I don't know why, but they are.
The only difference appears to be the kick down bracket & cable
... Edit, answered my own question. Yes it's stamped on pump body
ERR 4046
Also thanks Chris but neither of my pumps is fly by wire/edc. Both are identical, mechanical pumps with the same number. I don't know why, but they are.
The only difference appears to be the kick down bracket & cable
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chris-the-gerbil
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Im not sure. The two pumps are noticeably different in appearance however.
chris-the-gerbil
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Oh and with the proper service tool to hold the crankshaft. I could easily do a timing belt in 2 hours in the desert let alone a proper garage!
Mr E Green
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Sorry Chris if page 2 pics are bad or poorly oriented. See my last post, both pumps in engine bay, one fitted, one resting on top.
Identical bosch pumps as far as i can tell, they don't look different to me at all
jamesmartin
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a lot of autos were edc you get some more power to cope better with the auto,your pump in pic isnt ,non edc pumps for auto or manual apart from kick down bracket etc are the same pump
chris-the-gerbil
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They are then very early autos they made some without EDC. In which case - it's the same engine as a manual with a kickdown cable. Still no excuse for an eight hour pump swap and subsequent screwup.
Agreed - This is 100% correct - and can be confirmed with reference to an online parts catalogue like the www.allbrit.de one - parts are listed by VIN
Exactly - Early D1 auto's were 111 Bhp, and folk complained, so LR fitted the EDC system to "compensate". Now however, with the lack of spare parts, many EDC autos have been de-EDC'd ( mine included), and with a full width IC and a pump tune, are much better for it. OP - my auto has a "manual" FIP with the kickdown bracket added by me! - The EDC system uses a fly by wire throttle control for the electronic FIP, BUT the kickdown cable is manual, and is controlled by the throttle CABLE, which the EDC system keeps, simply to operate the kick down !
Also agree on the 8 hour pump swap - OP you were fleeced
Mr E Green
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Thanks folks
The 8 hour pump swap was just a rectification attempt that failed.!
The real fleecing was being charged £920 for the engine swap initially.
How can I prove the pump currently fitted is an ERR 4046 and requires only kickdown brackets to fit an auto? I've taken pictures for court but it's hardly expert opinion. Also if the garage is bold enough to lie even deeper they might just try convincing judge that I'm wrong.
I've even considered approaching another garage to see if i can get something on company stationary confirming what's under my bonnet.
The 8 hour pump swap was just a rectification attempt that failed.!
The real fleecing was being charged £920 for the engine swap initially.
How can I prove the pump currently fitted is an ERR 4046 and requires only kickdown brackets to fit an auto? I've taken pictures for court but it's hardly expert opinion. Also if the garage is bold enough to lie even deeper they might just try convincing judge that I'm wrong.
I've even considered approaching another garage to see if i can get something on company stationary confirming what's under my bonnet.
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Refer to the parts catalogue - print it out as required, and the same applies for the RAVE pages - print them out and show them in court - you'll (presumably) have to disclose your references before the trial, and it'd be nice to think that any "garage" with a brain cell would, when faced with the proper horses mouth reference as evidence, settle. So, they won't
.Only my opinion, but I have been in court a few times - ( also
- in terms of why let it get that far...) - and I would expect it hard to argue with the official LR WS manual...Mr E Green
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Refer to the parts catalogue - print it out as required, and the same applies for the RAVE pages - print them out and show them in court - you'll (presumably) have to disclose your references before the trial, and it'd be nice to think that any "garage" with a brain cell would, when faced with the proper horses mouth reference as evidence, settle. So, they won't
Only my opinion, but I have been in court a few times - ( also
Thank you that sounds like what i need, except I couldn't make any sense of allbrit.de (even in English) and I don't know what RAVE is
sorry Will they show that my pump fits a 300tdi and either transmission, provided there's a kick down bracket in case of the automatic?
The other reason i considered an 'expert' is that they can identify what's on my vehicle as an independent expert.
Otherwise I'm a regular guy saying my pumps are mechanical, against a guy who recently inherited a 45yr reputation in the motor trade, and he is adamant the pumps are special and the engine is wrong.
Even if the judge likes my pictures, how will they know a mechanical pump from a fly by wire pump?
He says i supplied the wrong engine (why he would still attempt and charge for a job with the wrong parts is going to be raised in court) and he says one pump was only for a manual and the other is especially for autos.
He already tried convincing me i had a special camshaft and EDC. Now he just says the kickdown was 'found to be part of the pump, requiring an 8 hour swap'. He's just making whatever he wants up
Its very frustrating to be lied to repeatedly about my vehicle's parts
RAVE is the downloadable OFFICIAL WS manual for your vehicle - a search on here will find you a link.
In terms of an appropriate expert, you're going to need someone with experience of old mechanical FIP's - I'd suggest someone like Diesel Bob ( search for him ) - but I suspect you might struggle to get him to appear in court..... there will probably be someone local to you - again, search for a FIP recon specialist in your area.....
The way I understand the court process - you might be better to agree a single joint expert with your ex "garage".
The other thought that occurs is that do you have legal expences insurance on your motor policy? - cos they might get involved...
In terms of an appropriate expert, you're going to need someone with experience of old mechanical FIP's - I'd suggest someone like Diesel Bob ( search for him ) - but I suspect you might struggle to get him to appear in court..... there will probably be someone local to you - again, search for a FIP recon specialist in your area.....
The way I understand the court process - you might be better to agree a single joint expert with your ex "garage".
The other thought that occurs is that do you have legal expences insurance on your motor policy? - cos they might get involved...
Mr E Green
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Thanks, would hope i wouldn't need someone to attend court. I'd hope a simple letter confirming what i already know is in my engine bay would be enough to expose the lie?
Probably wouldn't be allowed expert witness at this late stage anyway, and no the garage won't agree to anything.
I hope my case is quite strong anyway just on the consumer law side. It's hopefully obvious to the court that I have a grievance and there's no excuse for that, the garage should've sorted it out or done job properly in first place?
Just would be good to be able to prove that the 300tdi with non edc mechanical pump is the same as the original 300tdi with same pump, apart from the kickdown brackets.
This should've been a really simple job I'm told.
The kicker is after my mechanic mate sorted the timing and fuel system (and tweaked it somehow) it runs great, so obviously it is not the wrong engine
All that's wrong now is I'm slowly finding that anywhere the garage touched where the bolt etc is even slightly tricky... They've just not bothered. My exhaust was only on finger tight at engine, I've had to replace vacuum pump they knackered and flywheel housing leaks, not from drain so much as the seam... I think it's not fastened up right.
And they knackered aircon
And there is a squeaky rattle when i shut engine off, like a hyena laughing
I wouldn't mind so much but it wasn't that way before.
Probably wouldn't be allowed expert witness at this late stage anyway, and no the garage won't agree to anything.
I hope my case is quite strong anyway just on the consumer law side. It's hopefully obvious to the court that I have a grievance and there's no excuse for that, the garage should've sorted it out or done job properly in first place?
Just would be good to be able to prove that the 300tdi with non edc mechanical pump is the same as the original 300tdi with same pump, apart from the kickdown brackets.
This should've been a really simple job I'm told.
The kicker is after my mechanic mate sorted the timing and fuel system (and tweaked it somehow) it runs great, so obviously it is not the wrong engine
All that's wrong now is I'm slowly finding that anywhere the garage touched where the bolt etc is even slightly tricky... They've just not bothered. My exhaust was only on finger tight at engine, I've had to replace vacuum pump they knackered and flywheel housing leaks, not from drain so much as the seam... I think it's not fastened up right.
And they knackered aircon
And there is a squeaky rattle when i shut engine off, like a hyena laughing
I wouldn't mind so much but it wasn't that way before.
IMHO, remember that the "devil's in the detail" - AFAIK, the Judge's "job" is to enforce the rules - so you need to tell him EVERYTHING you can to support your case - with more detail in layers if he needs to ask a question - this will also make you look like you know what you are doing, and prove to the court that you have prepared your case fully.
I still think RAVE is your best expert - it will probably have pictures of the two pumps, which are pretty different in appearance....
If you have LEI, they might have an advise line you can talk the case through with, to spot any flaws before the hearing....
Mr E Green
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I'm on my own I'm afraid, litigant in person, but thanks
I'll try RAVE see if I can find anything useful. It might help identify the pump but doubt it will say 'fits both manuals & autos with addition of kickdown bracket which takes 20 mins not 8 hours'
Edit: downloading and viewing RAVE doesn't appear straightforward, i can't even find a working link. Is it even possible on android devices?
I'll try RAVE see if I can find anything useful. It might help identify the pump but doubt it will say 'fits both manuals & autos with addition of kickdown bracket which takes 20 mins not 8 hours'
Edit: downloading and viewing RAVE doesn't appear straightforward, i can't even find a working link. Is it even possible on android devices?
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Mr E Green
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I've been chasing dead links all afternoon and found nothing useful related to my fuel pump.
I've a couple more links to chase up but i think they iso's? Which means I need pc? My laptop is ancient and not sure if it will cope...
I've a couple more links to chase up but i think they iso's? Which means I need pc? My laptop is ancient and not sure if it will cope...
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It'll cope, just be a bit slow, but that's no bad thing ...
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