Air or springs?

good morning,
We have a P38 2002 4.0 on LPG. It has the original suspension.
Last week the suspension developed a 'soft' fault. The car was down south with an employee. Last night driving the 250 miles back to Edinburgh a 'hard' fault manifested and it took Phil 9 hours to drive that distance.

I am about to start tracking down the fault but given the hassle and the notoriety of the air system would I be better off switching to springs? If so, which ones should I buy and where can I find the best on line guide. I am an old hand with a spanner so am fully aware of the dangers of messing around with springs etc.

Whilst I like the air system, I simply don;t have the time to track these faults if they manifest again, this vehicle is a 'tool' not a toy (like my Series 3)

thanks

Richard

Get the data cable from datatec then the car will tell you whats wrong with the eas
Youll pay in the regon of £500+ for a spring kit and with alot less you can fully referb you existing eas setup

Dont do it !!!!

It could be as simple as a twelve year old air bag leaking and then the compressor not being able to keep up with the leak.
Hardly the end of the world.

Sell it a get another tool then, if you can't be bothered to maintain it.

Dont reley on a p38 to be a work horse it will let you down just when you need it
They do it just to make life interesting
The eas is a very good piece of kit but it must be maintained regular

Honestly. It will be more cost effective to fix the air system. Get the lead, read the fault and then tell us what it is. Honestly for what it will cost for springs you can do a high refurb of the air set up and it will be good for another 109k miles

wammers said:

Sell it a get another tool then, if you can't be bothered to maintain it.

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it's not a question of 'can't be bothered' it's a question of time. This vehicle is very well maintained, any vehicle will develop faults no matter how well it is maintained so I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here my question is a perfectly reasonable one. Whilst the P38 is a fine vehicle it, like many other vehicles, has components that are prone to failing, all I am asking is whether or not it is worth considering changing the suspension system to springs?

From the helpful opinions so far received, it seems that, given the cost of spring components it is better to tackle the air suspension issue.

I am no stranger to adjustable suspension systems and also run a Citroen CX the hydraulic system of which I maintain myself without any issues.

abercorn said:

it's not a question of 'can't be bothered' it's a question of time. This vehicle is very well maintained, any vehicle will develop faults no matter how well it is maintained so I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here my question is a perfectly reasonable one. Whilst the P38 is a fine vehicle it, like many other vehicles, has components that are prone to failing, all I am asking is whether or not it is worth considering changing the suspension system to springs?

From the helpful opinions so far received, it seems that, given the cost of spring components it is better to tackle the air suspension issue.

I am no stranger to adjustable suspension systems and also run a Citroen CX who's hydraulic system I maintain myself without any issues.

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Then do the same with the P38 it's not exactly rocket science. Components have a life. Renew the ones that have become tired then maintain the system and it will serve you well.

wammers said:

Then do the same with the P38 it's not exactly rocket science. Components have a life. Renew the ones that have become tired then maintain the system and it will serve you well.

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Thank you

If you can can do the Citroën then the p38 will be easy to grasp.

abercorn said:

it's not a question of 'can't be bothered' it's a question of time. This vehicle is very well maintained, any vehicle will develop faults no matter how well it is maintained so I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make here my question is a perfectly reasonable one. Whilst the P38 is a fine vehicle it, like many other vehicles, has components that are prone to failing, all I am asking is whether or not it is worth considering changing the suspension system to springs?

From the helpful opinions so far received, it seems that, given the cost of spring components it is better to tackle the air suspension issue.

I am no stranger to adjustable suspension systems and also run a Citroen CX the hydraulic system of which I maintain myself without any issues.

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The airsprings have a design life of 7/8 years 80K miles, like tyres, they need replacing from time to time, simple job and not expensive, same goes for the airdryer, inlet filter and exhaust silencer. It may also be worth a valve block overhaul, simple job and again not expensive. If the airsprings are original, the compressor will be shagged from trying to keep up with the leaks, a new seal kit and cylinder will fix it.
If none of those things have been done on a 12 year old car then I would not regard it as well maintained.
The car was not designed to run on springs, an expensive switch that will ruin the ride.

Would you think of going back to Air if a spring broke?

Air air air! My 12 year old RR is a bit of a dog, but am passionate about her. I am currently servicing the air system myself and I am a female office worker! You just have to do it step by step, and get advice from the great guys on here. The air system is an integrated part of the P38, part of her character. Putting her on springs is just wrong!

Rachelkgr said:

Air air air! My 12 year old RR is a bit of a dog, but am passionate about her. I am currently servicing the air system myself and I am a female office worker! You just have to do it step by step, and get advice from the great guys on here. The air system is an integrated part of the P38, part of her character. Putting her on springs is just wrong!

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They are not so daft these women

update-
Thanks again for all the suggestions and the PMs, I've ordered the diagnostics kit from Keith and have been reading up on the system.
The car has a full service history and it looks like the air springs were replaced about 40k ago, mind you that was 6 years ago.
The air system does look pretty easy to work on, the only hassle is having to clear the faults with the laptop (what happens when accountants get to contribute to car design! mind you the CX did bankrupt Citroen so maybe they can be forgiven).
Having recently replaced the springs on a Subaru Legacy (these are the thickest springs I have seen on a 'car' ie not a truck) I'm on the whole a huge fan of systems where the car does the lifting over latent spring energy, once you've got used to a self levelling suspension it's hard to give it up, I was reminded of this as I glided over Edinburgh's 44DD size speed bumps in the CX yesterday at 30mph without feeling anything more than a mild gallic shrug.
Also, unless a second hand set if springs etc can be sourced from a scrappy it doesn't seem to make any economic sense at all to switch back to springs. So thanks for your advice which has been unanimous in keeping the air.

during my initial exploration of the fault yesterday, I did find that one of the LPG rubber feed pipes had popped off a junction at some point during my employees road trip on Sunday fortunately, it's a good system and it immediately shut down. Our company works in the LPG sector at terminals and depots and it teaches you a healthy respect for the stuff. We have an LPG engineer at work and I am going to get him to service the system which was professionally installed last year but I am surprised that hose popped off, however, it could have been my employee scrabbling around in the dark under the bonnet.

abercorn said:

update-
Thanks again for all the suggestions and the PMs, I've ordered the diagnostics kit from Keith and have been reading up on the system.
The car has a full service history and it looks like the air springs were replaced about 40k ago, mind you that was 6 years ago.
The air system does look pretty easy to work on, the only hassle is having to clear the faults with the laptop (what happens when accountants get to contribute to car design! mind you the CX did bankrupt Citroen so maybe they can be forgiven).
Having recently replaced the springs on a Subaru Legacy (these are the thickest springs I have seen on a 'car' ie not a truck) I'm on the whole a huge fan of systems where the car does the lifting over latent spring energy, once you've got used to a self levelling suspension it's hard to give it up, I was reminded of this as I glided over Edinburgh's 44DD size speed bumps in the CX yesterday at 30mph without feeling anything more than a mild gallic shrug.
Also, unless a second hand set if springs etc can be sourced from a scrappy it doesn't seem to make any economic sense at all to switch back to springs. So thanks for your advice which has been unanimous in keeping the air.

during my initial exploration of the fault yesterday, I did find that one of the LPG rubber feed pipes had popped off a junction at some point during my employees road trip on Sunday fortunately, it's a good system and it immediately shut down. Our company works in the LPG sector at terminals and depots and it teaches you a healthy respect for the stuff. We have an LPG engineer at work and I am going to get him to service the system which was professionally installed last year but I am surprised that hose popped off, however, it could have been my employee scrabbling around in the dark under the bonnet.

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SACK him !!! Glad you have decided to keep the air :clap2: Had a CX many years ago and must agree with you re. suspension, it was amazing Regards

Well done, why lose the quality of ride by changing to Springs . Springs are for the easily pleased and the idle who do not want to keep up with the servicing of the amazing EAS system that is on the P38

The p38 will already feel like a bone-shaker compared to the wonderful CX, no point making it even worse fitting springs.

Lol,
Phil is forgiven, The suspension dropped at Preston at 6.00pm on Friday night, the poor bugger didn't get to my house in Edinburgh until 5.40am on Saturday morning, he was terrified of driving it over 35mph despite me telling him that he'd be ok at 50mph. He decided to take the A6/A7 rather than the M6/M74/M8. I told him he would be better sitting on the motorway as there is less stress on the suspension than on a twisty A road in a high grav truck - can you imagine struggling over Shap or the road south of Galashiels, it would be like one of those old films of lorries with car springs struggling over the pass in the 1950s. I can forgive him unplugging the LPG in the dark , must have been exhausted poor chap. anyway, the Rangie only used 1/3rd of a tank of petrol from Carlislie to Edinburgh which isn't bad when you consider he was unlikely to have been out of 3rd. The poor bvgger got stopped by the rozzers on 2 occasions and followed for 10 miles on another, driving erratically late on a friday night, they thought he was some ****ed up old farmer, when they saw he was a small Geordie in a baseball cap and hoodie they obviously checked his license, the insurance, our address etc etc. I told him to call the RAC on the company card for recovery but he 'felt bad about using the service whilst the car still worked as it cost money to do so'...what a boy.

anyway
UPDATE on the Rangie,
Spanners and multimeter out yesterday. On Keith's and Kurt's suggestion I decided to check the valve block and the compressor. So I removed them and stripped them down. The good news is that the valve block looks like a fairly recent replacement, tell tale permanent marker serial number and a date of 2010, all the O rings were good. The compressor was similar in O ring seals except one of the wee ones which seals with a steel flap, there was the tell tale conical shiny area on the inside of the air chamber which is a dead giveaway for a seal playing up. I replaced this O ring and inverted the others as I had run out of spares (if the business side of an O ring has become flattened you can sometimes get away with inverting it as a temporary measure, we get through O rings by the score with our work compressors which average at 400cfm and weigh tonnes. The teflon piston ring was another matter entirely worn thin on one side and torn through.

So, I was tempted to bodge a replacement from a 35mm film case (as suggested on .net) but when I read that the inventor of this got 3 days winter use before it failed I decided to file it away for a field repair and source a new one.

Question
How on earth do I remove the aluminium seal ring from the piston in the compressor without destroying it? I've tried all sorts, obviously heat is out. and I am loath to use a penetrating spray which can play havoc with graphite dust. any ideas? I'm getting to the point when I'm going to end up replacing the whole compressor which would be a shame considering the only real issue seems to be the teflon ring.

I also stripped down the motor to check the condition of the brushes and bearings, all of which are excellent so I assume that this is a relatively recent part. The usual fun and games reassembling the motor and getting the brushes in place, a Heath Robinson device involving cocktail sticks and swearing eventually did the trick, mind you a doddle compared to some alternators I have worked on.

Question
In checking the valve block I was surprised to find air was still in the purple valve. The air receiver tank was empty as was the rest of the system. Could this point to the whereabouts of the leak?

I still suspect there is a leak in one of the springs or lines, the compressor seal I think has happened because it has been over worked.

On a broader point, I am enthused at how straightforward the system is to work on and how relatively easy it is to access the components. As I mentioned before, apart from the unnecessary proprietorial error system it's pretty straightforward with none of the cross channel contrariness of the CX where you could be forgiven in thinking that the design is part of some master plan by the French to raise the blood pressure of mechanics in perfidious Albion, french mechanics are immune thanks to the amount of red wine and garlic they consume (keeps the blood pressure down!)