4WD smaller vehicle choices

What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
pavement ? I was told that a jeep tj or chevy tracker cannot be driven
on dry pavement in 4WD. I am looking for something with a high seating
position (no sabarus therefore) which can provide better tractions
during rain and snow. I want a real truck with a frame so am not
interested in a CRV.

Does my dream truck even exist ?

On 18 Nov 2003 15:25:19 -0800, [email protected] (Henry) wrote:

>:|What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
>:|pavement ? I was told that a jeep tj or chevy tracker cannot be driven
>:|on dry pavement in 4WD. I am looking for something with a high seating
>:|position (no sabarus therefore) which can provide better tractions
>:|during rain and snow. I want a real truck with a frame so am not
>:|interested in a CRV.
>:|
>:|Does my dream truck even exist ?

The Buick Ranier, Oldsmobile Bravada,, Lincoln Aviator offer AWD
systems although these would be considered mid-size SUV's.
the Ford Escape offers an auto 4wd but I don't know if it's a unibody
vehicle or not.

HTH,
Bret

"Henry" <[email protected]> wrote

> What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
> pavement ? I was told that a jeep tj or chevy tracker cannot be driven
> on dry pavement in 4WD. I am looking for something with a high seating
> position (no sabarus therefore) which can provide better tractions
> during rain and snow. I want a real truck with a frame so am not
> interested in a CRV.
>
> Does my dream truck even exist ?

The later model automatic Isuzu Amigo/Rodeo/MU is supposed to have a center
diff, this may differ between the markets tho.

rhys

"Henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Does my dream truck even exist ?

Kia Sorrento? It may be larger than you want, but it's a body on frame
truck with available full time 4wd.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:47:16 +1300, "rnf2" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>:|
>:|"Henry" <[email protected]> wrote
>:|
>:|> What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
>:|> pavement ? I was told that a jeep tj or chevy tracker cannot be driven
>:|> on dry pavement in 4WD. I am looking for something with a high seating
>:|> position (no sabarus therefore) which can provide better tractions
>:|> during rain and snow. I want a real truck with a frame so am not
>:|> interested in a CRV.
>:|>
>:|> Does my dream truck even exist ?
>:|
>:|The later model automatic Isuzu Amigo/Rodeo/MU is supposed to have a center
>:|diff, this may differ between the markets tho.
>:|
>:|rhys
>:|


the '04 Rodeo's in the US market have a "push button shift on the fly
4wd". I'm assuming that means an electrically shifted TC w/ a central
axle disconnect. the 3.5l direct injection gas engine looks very
interesting though. My wife is absolutely dying to buy a new Rodeo to
replace her beloved '93.

-Bret

Ummm, why the terrible need for AWD for full-time 4WD? What's the big
deal?
You have problems driving in snow and rain...slow down? Anyways....

Just remember, without lockers, a FWD or RWD vehicle is actually only
a one
wheel drive vehicle, and when in 4WD you are only two
wheel drive when the traction really counts, again, without lockers.
AWD
systems have just as much slip built in, and aren't really all wheel
drive
either. If you have this much trouble, consider a vehicle with
traction
control...it will brake individual wheels to reduce slipping when you
get
heavy on the gas or are doing something you shouldn't be anyway.


Thoughts of a disturbed man ;-)


--
--
Joe Pribe
NC
jpribe 'at' nc.rr.com <you know the drill
jegp 'at' hotmail.com < at is really @
---- I Love My O|||||||O TJ Sahara



"Henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
| What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on
dry
| pavement ? I was told that a jeep tj or chevy tracker cannot be
driven
| on dry pavement in 4WD. I am looking for something with a high
seating
| position (no sabarus therefore) which can provide better tractions
| during rain and snow. I want a real truck with a frame so am not
| interested in a CRV.
|
| Does my dream truck even exist ?

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 03:30:09 GMT, "Joseph P" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Ummm, why the terrible need for AWD for full-time 4WD? What's the big
>deal?
>You have problems driving in snow and rain...slow down? Anyways....
>
>Just remember, without lockers, a FWD or RWD vehicle is actually only
>a one
>wheel drive vehicle, and when in 4WD you are only two
>wheel drive when the traction really counts, again, without lockers.
>AWD
>systems have just as much slip built in, and aren't really all wheel
>drive
>either. If you have this much trouble, consider a vehicle with
>traction
>control...it will brake individual wheels to reduce slipping when you
>get
>heavy on the gas or are doing something you shouldn't be anyway.


Well, whatever, but I'll put my AWD Safari van up against any FWD/RWD
(with or without traction control) vehicle on a snowy or icy road.

Having owned FWD/RWD/AWD/4x4 vehicles, I know which one really works
best on snow/ice covered roads.

And to the original poster...... Jeep Liberty maybe? I don't know if
they offer an AWD setting on this rig, but they do on the Grand
Cherokee so it is certainly a possibility. And although I don't know
much about them, I'd maybe look at the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute too.

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
96 GMC Safari AWD Hi-Top Conversion

"Bret Chase" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:47:16 +1300, "rnf2" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >:|
> >:|"Henry" <[email protected]> wrote
> >:|
> >:|> What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
> >:|> pavement ? I was told that a jeep tj or chevy tracker cannot be
driven
> >:|> on dry pavement in 4WD. I am looking for something with a high
seating
> >:|> position (no sabarus therefore) which can provide better tractions
> >:|> during rain and snow. I want a real truck with a frame so am not
> >:|> interested in a CRV.
> >:|>
> >:|> Does my dream truck even exist ?
> >:|
> >:|The later model automatic Isuzu Amigo/Rodeo/MU is supposed to have a
center
> >:|diff, this may differ between the markets tho.
> >:|
> >:|rhys
> >:|
>
>
> the '04 Rodeo's in the US market have a "push button shift on the fly
> 4wd". I'm assuming that means an electrically shifted TC w/ a central
> axle disconnect. the 3.5l direct injection gas engine looks very
> interesting though. My wife is absolutely dying to buy a new Rodeo to
> replace her beloved '93.
>
> -Bret

I believe the british models have a locking central differential. it can be
selected 2wd or 4wd open from a dash switch, bringing in the front wheels,
at which point the T-case is an open centre diff, it can then be switched
further to 4wd closed where I suppose a clutch or something locks in the
T-case to make it a locked center diff. The Hi/Lo ratios are selected via a
floor lever.

I can't swear to it since I'm not in the UK, but this is my understanding of
what they have.

rhys

"Henry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
> pavement ? I was told that a jeep tj or chevy tracker cannot be driven
> on dry pavement in 4WD. I am looking for something with a high seating
> position (no sabarus therefore) which can provide better tractions
> during rain and snow. I want a real truck with a frame so am not
> interested in a CRV.
>
> Does my dream truck even exist ?

The tracker is for sure part time, and is frame consturction.

You would probably not want the CRV for a second reason. The AWD system use
two pumps to sense wheel spin before engaging the rear wheels. It takes some
slippage for the rear to engage. You would not get the stability advantage
of a continuously engaged AWD. Something to look for if you find your dream
car.

"Matt Mead" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


> And to the original poster...... Jeep Liberty maybe? I don't know if
> they offer an AWD setting on this rig, but they do on the Grand
> Cherokee so it is certainly a possibility. And although I don't know
> much about them, I'd maybe look at the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute too.


I believe you can get pretty much any jeep to come with any transfer case.
If you want a transfer case with a full-time 4WD setting, get the
"Select-Trac" transfer case. It will have a 2-Hi, 4-HI (unlocked), 4-HI
locked, and 4-LO (locked). If you need a truck, and size isn't a big issue,
then consider the Comanche (hell, they probably don't even make those
anymore). If you don't mind SUV, then try Liberty, Cherokee, Grand
Cherokee.... etc. Jeeps today have full-time AWD as well... then you just
choose whether you want high or low gear range.

I believe the select-trac transfer cases (as well as the full-time AWD) have
a viscous coupling separating the front and rear axles. But it must be able
to be locked up for 4-hi locked and 4-lo.

I own both an awd grand caravan and a 4X4 Jeep Cherokee. For on-road driving
in slick conditions, I choose the AWD caravan over my Cherokee (which has
the "command-trac" transfer case, which locks the axels in any 4X4 setting).
If I had a select-trac transfer case in my jeep I'd like it better for
on-road driving.

18 Nov 2003 15:25:19 -0800 [email protected] (Henry) wrote:

> What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
> pavement ? I was told that a jeep tj or chevy tracker cannot be driven
> on dry pavement in 4WD. I am looking for something with a high seating
> position (no sabarus therefore) which can provide better tractions
> during rain and snow. I want a real truck with a frame so am not
> interested in a CRV.

Your deamands: smaller size (compared to what?), high
seating postion, truck with a real frame, 4WD even on
dry pavement.

Sounds just like my MB Unimog 406, a real truck with
everything you asked for. Is it "smaller"? It depends
on what you compare it.

--
Jukka

> Just remember, without lockers, a FWD or RWD vehicle is actually only
> a one
> wheel drive vehicle, and when in 4WD you are only two
> wheel drive when the traction really counts, again, without lockers.


No offence intended, but that logic is so flawed it drives me nuts. It's not
just you, I've read that theory before and even my know-nothing-know-it-all
brother has the same theory. It must've originated from people who can't
comprehend how an open diff actually works (of which there are surprisingly
many).

Open diff, straight line, dry pavement. Which "one wheel" is the drive
wheel? Yep, a trick question. Just because one wheel can unload when
traction is lost does not make it a one wheel drive vehicle. You're only
really "driving" when both wheels have traction anyway. ;o) The open diff
distributes power to both wheels regardless of their independant rpm when
both have adequate traction (ie. normal driving conditions). Both wheels.
Not one, both. Obviously the system fails when one wheel looses adequate
traction.

If your truck was 1wd, it sure would tend to pull to one side an awful
lot... ;o)

How about sthe Subaru offerings? I believe that every model that they
currently sell is AWD.

Paul E.
--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy."

"Jukka" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> 18 Nov 2003 15:25:19 -0800 [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
>
> > What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
> > pavement ? I was told that a jeep tj or chevy tracker cannot be driven
> > on dry pavement in 4WD. I am looking for something with a high seating
> > position (no sabarus therefore) which can provide better tractions
> > during rain and snow. I want a real truck with a frame so am not
> > interested in a CRV.
>
> Your deamands: smaller size (compared to what?), high
> seating postion, truck with a real frame, 4WD even on
> dry pavement.
>
> Sounds just like my MB Unimog 406, a real truck with
> everything you asked for. Is it "smaller"? It depends
> on what you compare it.
>
> --
> Jukka
>

"Paul Elliot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> How about sthe Subaru offerings? I believe that every model that they
> currently sell is AWD.
>
> Paul E.
> --

>>> I am looking for something with a high seating
>>> position (no sabarus therefore)

read the origional post. this is clipped from what you replied to, note it
says no subarus, they guy wants a high seat with plenty of view.

rhys

You choices that immediatly come to mind are the current generation
Toyota 4 Runner and Jeep Grand Cherokee. Everything else I can think of
that fits those criteria costs alot more than those two.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

[email protected] (Henry) wrote:
> What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
> pavement ?

That depends... do you want 4WD with low-range gearing for the steep/messy
bits? Or can you settle for AWD without low-range gearing?

If you want low-range, I think you're stuck with a Jeep Liberty and the
optional "Select-Trac" or whatever they call it. If you just want "AWD"
with no low-range, it looks like the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute,
Honda CR-V, Hyundai Santa Fe, Land Rover Freelander, Saturn Vue, and
Toyota RAV-4 are viable options.

Look at the chart at the bottom of this page:
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/editorial/features/index.cfm?act=feature06

-Dan

--
Dan Birchall, Hilo HI - http://dan.birchalls.net/ - images, words, technology

[email protected] (Dan Birchall) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
> > What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
> > pavement ?
>
> That depends... do you want 4WD with low-range gearing for the steep/messy
> bits? Or can you settle for AWD without low-range gearing?
>
> If you want low-range, I think you're stuck with a Jeep Liberty and the
> optional "Select-Trac" or whatever they call it. If you just want "AWD"
> with no low-range, it looks like the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute,
> Honda CR-V, Hyundai Santa Fe, Land Rover Freelander, Saturn Vue, and
> Toyota RAV-4 are viable options.
>
> Look at the chart at the bottom of this page:
> http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/editorial/features/index.cfm?act=feature06

This post appears to be a response to a thread which ended last
November, unless my newsreader if hosing up. But that said, I'd like
to offer:

- I've owned a Cherokee w/Selec-Trac; in "pavement mode" it's just an
open-center case, and is practically useless, being actually
"one-wheel drive" (just as PT 4WD w/o lockers is actually "two wheel
drive"; the only favorable (but not necessary) use I found for it was
for heavy towing;

- IMHO/E magazine reviews of most anything are generally the worst way
to try to learn much that is truly important about how a particular
truck/appliance/amplifier/computer/whatever works for you or even is
really like to own & use; YMMV;

- I believe the notion of 4WD (and not AWD) on pavement or even on
dirt roads, and/or "for better traction in snow" with respect to
*on-road use*, is a masterpiece of marketing & a myth. I have been a
Mainer for 56 years, most of which have been "11 months of winter & 30
days of bad sledding"<grin>, and no real Mainer owns a 4WD except for
use in the woods or true off-roading. IMO&E 2WD is safer and better
on slick roads than 4WD 99.8% of the time for a number of real-world
reasons, and 4WD is a lot of extra cost, weight, maintenance & high
operating cost seldom justified. Here in the Northeast, the main
advantage of 4WD over 2WD *for on-road use by ordinary folks*, is that
it allows you to get stuck 1,000 feet further away from help, where
you need to call a skidder for $500 to get out instead of AAA.
During the infamous ice storm of 6 yrs ago with unmaintained
ice-covered roads & no power for over 2 weeks, I got to/from town most
every day in a 2WD S-10 w/extra bed weight, and saw many 4WD's off the
road.

- IMHO & that of others, the downsized Cherokee/variants *stock* are
only fit for mother to go to the store for groceries in country style,
and tend to have high life-cycle operating costs. I was pulled out of
the woods twice in mine (stock) by (stock) fullsize 2WD trucks, and
while its unibody construction is very flexible for nice results over
rocks & logs, I've seen 2 cracked right up their sides at the pillars
from flexing in daily off-road use (not "driving on bad dirt roads").
If someone gave me another vehicle of similar design, I'd sell it.

[email protected] ([email protected]) wrote:
> This post appears to be a response to a thread which ended last
> November, unless my newsreader if hosing up.

Threads _end_, now, do they? That's a new feature.

> I have been a Mainer for 56 years, most of which have been "11 months
> of winter & 30 days of bad sledding"<grin>, and no real Mainer owns
> a 4WD except for use in the woods or true off-roading.

Conditions, like mileage, may vary. I've got another thread floating
around here somewhere in which I describe those involved in my "commute"

> - IMHO & that of others, the downsized Cherokee/variants *stock* are
> only fit for mother to go to the store for groceries in country style,
> and tend to have high life-cycle operating costs. I was pulled out of
> the woods twice in mine (stock) by (stock) fullsize 2WD trucks, and
> while its unibody construction is very flexible for nice results over
> rocks & logs, I've seen 2 cracked right up their sides at the pillars
> from flexing in daily off-road use (not "driving on bad dirt roads").
> If someone gave me another vehicle of similar design, I'd sell it.

Excellent advice.


--
Dan Birchall, Hilo HI - http://dan.birchalls.net/ - images, words, technology

On 3 Aug 2004 18:00:25 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>:|[email protected] (Dan Birchall) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>:|> [email protected] (Henry) wrote:
>:|> > What is a smaller 4wd SUV that can be driven in 4wd / awd mode on dry
>:|> > pavement ?
>:|>
>:|> That depends... do you want 4WD with low-range gearing for the steep/messy
>:|> bits? Or can you settle for AWD without low-range gearing?
>:|>
>:|> If you want low-range, I think you're stuck with a Jeep Liberty and the
>:|> optional "Select-Trac" or whatever they call it. If you just want "AWD"
>:|> with no low-range, it looks like the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute,
>:|> Honda CR-V, Hyundai Santa Fe, Land Rover Freelander, Saturn Vue, and
>:|> Toyota RAV-4 are viable options.
>:|>
>:|> Look at the chart at the bottom of this page:
>:|> http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/editorial/features/index.cfm?act=feature06
>:|
>:|This post appears to be a response to a thread which ended last
>:|November, unless my newsreader if hosing up. But that said, I'd like
>:|to offer:
>:|
>:|- I've owned a Cherokee w/Selec-Trac; in "pavement mode" it's just an
>:|open-center case, and is practically useless, being actually
>:|"one-wheel drive" (just as PT 4WD w/o lockers is actually "two wheel
>:|drive"; the only favorable (but not necessary) use I found for it was
>:|for heavy towing;
>:|
>:|- IMHO/E magazine reviews of most anything are generally the worst way
>:|to try to learn much that is truly important about how a particular
>:|truck/appliance/amplifier/computer/whatever works for you or even is
>:|really like to own & use; YMMV;
>:|
>:|- I believe the notion of 4WD (and not AWD) on pavement or even on
>:|dirt roads, and/or "for better traction in snow" with respect to
>:|*on-road use*, is a masterpiece of marketing & a myth. I have been a
>:|Mainer for 56 years, most of which have been "11 months of winter & 30
>:|days of bad sledding"<grin>, and no real Mainer owns a 4WD except for
>:|use in the woods or true off-roading. IMO&E 2WD is safer and better

you and my dad have the same opinion... however having spent 26 of my
30 years in Maine, I can't even count the times I've had to go pull
him out of his driveway with my K2500. I had to drive daily from my
apt to my parent's house to feed and water my horse.. I never missed
a day because I had 4wd and great tires.



>:|on slick roads than 4WD 99.8% of the time for a number of real-world
>:|reasons, and 4WD is a lot of extra cost, weight, maintenance & high
>:|operating cost seldom justified. Here in the Northeast, the main
>:|advantage of 4WD over 2WD *for on-road use by ordinary folks*, is that
>:|it allows you to get stuck 1,000 feet further away from help, where
>:|you need to call a skidder for $500 to get out instead of AAA.
>:|During the infamous ice storm of 6 yrs ago with unmaintained
>:|ice-covered roads & no power for over 2 weeks, I got to/from town most
>:|every day in a 2WD S-10 w/extra bed weight, and saw many 4WD's off the
>:|road.
>:|

you can't blame the 4wd for operator bravado. properly used there is
no comparision between 4wd and 2wd. Ice is ice, nothing helps there.
I fortunately wasn't living in the northeast when the storm of '97 hit


-Bret

-who is glad he moved back out of that expensive ass state last month.