200TDi starting problem - not battery or starter.

biggun1 · Feb 23, 2015

Replacement is a valeo (Or boxed as valeo). Can't see it's the battery when the last one had been fine for 10+ years and that was an old 096 that I took off of an old Pug 406 diesel and it worked fine.

Just to think outside the box - how about if it's a failing ammeter, upsetting the voltage regulator on the alternator? causing the battery not to get it's full charge and hence the slow cranking?? Could it also be why it's only charging at 14.04 volts and 15 amps even though the battery is low??

trax · Feb 23, 2015

biggun1 said:
Replacement is a valeo (Or boxed as valeo). Can't see it's the battery when the last one had been fine for 10+ years and that was an old 096 that I took off of an old Pug 406 diesel and it worked fine.

Just to think outside the box - how about if it's a failing ammeter, upsetting the voltage regulator on the alternator? causing the battery not to get it's full charge and hence the slow cranking?? Could it also be why it's only charging at 14.04 volts and 15 amps even though the battery is low??

can't see your answer about how many miles you drive when it's started.

so your old battery was in the 200tdi series for ten years and you had no issues?

trax · Feb 23, 2015

your battery is flat which is why it's slow cranking. you are just figuring out why it's so flat, either small journeys which don't recharge, alts broken or undersized battery losing loads of power each crank which is killing it.

biggun1 · Feb 23, 2015

I drive 11 miles each way to work when I take my Landy, when it's left for the days inbetween it has a battery isolator that I switch off (as much as an anti theft device as to protect the battery).
Even after a couple of days on the new battery it started doing it (slow cranking), as I said earlier some mornings when it does it if you let it turn over once then release the key and try again it spins at normal speed and starts.
I'll try it with the P38 battery again in the morning, I've just put it on charge now to make sure it's absolutely topped up. I'll fit it in with the battery terminals rather than risk poor continuity through jump leads. - I really don't think it's the battery.
If the battery is getting that low why isn't the alternator showing as putting in more than 15 amps at 14.04 volts? Surely it should be pushing more amps and volts into a discharged battery - it's supposed to be good for 60 amps.

(Forgot to say I've also tried bypassing the isolator incase it was to blame)

lynall · Feb 23, 2015

Are you running the full alt charge power through the std series amp meter? I cant remember what the std series amp is rated at but its nowhere nears 60 amps, if so rewire it straight from the alternator output to the main positive terminal on the starter, my S2 tdi has been like this for over 4/5 years with zero issues, in fact it started for the first time in over 2 months the other day, albeit slightly reluctantly.
Proper battery cut off master switch is also a good idea, totally isolating the battery.

biggun1 · Feb 23, 2015

It's got a Series III dash and in the middle of the dash there's a Smiths volt meter, Smiths Ammeter (+-60amp) and an Alpha boost gauge (totally pointless but I needed something after the vacuum gauge came out with the 2 1/4 petrol).

I think tomorow after I try it with fresh charged BIG battery and see what happens I'll try removing the ammeter and running the wire directly from the alternator to the + terminal on the starter and then measuring the battery volts.

trax · Feb 23, 2015

11 miles should cover it.

biggun1 said:
If the battery is getting that low why isn't the alternator showing as putting in more than 15 amps at 14.04 volts? Surely it should be pushing more amps and volts into a discharged battery - it's supposed to be good for 60 amps.

doesn't work like that. load depends on your battery and what it can take.

if it's really discharged then it could pull a lot of current but then it tapers off as it gets full.

you

biggun1 said:
Even after a couple of days on the new battery it started doing it (slow cranking), as I said earlier some mornings when it does it if you let it turn over once then release the key and try again it spins at normal speed and starts.

that sounds like it is slowly discharging.

see the spin at normal bit. that's what i was thinking with the manually doing it with the screwdriver.

if you do it before putting the ign on and it cranks great, then i was wondering if some other load was being turned on when you used the ign. like glows or a short.

keep an eye on the volt and ammeter at the start of your journey and at the end. ammeter should be high at the start and go down as the battery has been charged (turn lights off)

(btw cycling your glows twice will help it start easier)

biggun1 · Feb 24, 2015

The story continues..

This morning with a fresh battery (Battery from a P38 diesel, less than 3 months old, charged over night and fitted in properly - not using jump leads) it.......spun over and started BUT not quickly like I'd expect, it still struggled over slowly once or twice then fired. So better than yesterday but still not great. I immediately turned it off, waited a minute and tried again and it spun over quickly and fired.

I then fitted the battery back in the P38 and it started it just as it should.

I refitted the battery from the landrover in the landrover (having charged it over night) and it started up fine.

I did however bypass the ammeter (It has 2 ring terminals on the back with wiring from alternator to battery - I joined them together with a short m6 nut and bolt and about 5 meters of black tape, I don't want an electrical fire!)
And now when it's running the voltage at the battery is 14.43volts as opposed to 14.07volts as tested immediately before I removed the meter from the circuit.

SO......Could it be a combination of factors causing my fault?
-A battery that's only marginally powerful enough
-An alternator that's not putting out what it should because of a dodgey ammeter and over the course of a few days the battery voltage/capacity is dropping causing the slow cranking
-The colder weather causing the increased resistance when cranking it over combined with low battery voltage

Guess we'll have to see what it's like tomiorrow morning

Blackburn · Feb 24, 2015

Mine also started straight away today, my battery is borderline for size.
Was originally fitted to my 15J 2010 then has been used on 200DI since Feb 2012 , but fits nicely under passenger seat without the lower battery tray .

Think I will soldier on with it till it becomes a non starter then alter my seat box.
Looked at some bigger CCA and AH batteries but most would require me alter floor of underseat space

trax · Feb 24, 2015

Blackburn said:
Mine also started straight away today, my battery is borderline for size.
Was originally fitted to my 15J 2010 then has been used on 200DI since Feb 2012 , but fits nicely under passenger seat without the lower battery tray .
View attachment 68974
Think I will soldier on with it till it becomes a non starter then alter my seat box.
Looked at some bigger CCA and AH batteries but most would require me alter floor of underseat space

one i linked to should fit. it has the sizes on it

trax · Feb 24, 2015

biggun1 said:
The story continues..

This morning with a fresh battery (Battery from a P38 diesel, less than 3 months old, charged over night and fitted in properly - not using jump leads) it.......spun over and started BUT not quickly like I'd expect, it still struggled over slowly once or twice then fired. So better than yesterday but still not great. I immediately turned it off, waited a minute and tried again and it spun over quickly and fired.

I then fitted the battery back in the P38 and it started it just as it should.

I refitted the battery from the landrover in the landrover (having charged it over night) and it started up fine.

I did however bypass the ammeter (It has 2 ring terminals on the back with wiring from alternator to battery - I joined them together with a short m6 nut and bolt and about 5 meters of black tape, I don't want an electrical fire!)
And now when it's running the voltage at the battery is 14.43volts as opposed to 14.07volts as tested immediately before I removed the meter from the circuit.

SO......Could it be a combination of factors causing my fault?
-A battery that's only marginally powerful enough
-An alternator that's not putting out what it should because of a dodgey ammeter and over the course of a few days the battery voltage/capacity is dropping causing the slow cranking
-The colder weather causing the increased resistance when cranking it over combined with low battery voltage

Guess we'll have to see what it's like tomiorrow morning

the p38 battery is still small though

also i think 14v would charge it over 11 miles. but deffo remove the ammeter from the way it's wired in.

when you've cranked a couple of times it will be generating heat and starting to move the cold engine oil and bits n bobs. which is why i think it fires

good luck with tomorrow, i think you know my thoughts

lynall · Feb 24, 2015

Both my Def and series are tdi, both start on the key no issues both not used for longish periods, Numax is a good battery, series has a std transit battery fitted.
I would still be looking at your starter motor.
Both cars I have an earth lead from bat neg straight to starter body and another from bat neg to chassis.

trax · Feb 24, 2015

lynall said:
Both my Def and series are tdi, both start on the key no issues both not used for longish periods, Numax is a good battery, series has a std transit battery fitted.
I would still be looking at your starter motor.
Both cars I have an earth lead from bat neg straight to starter body and another from bat neg to chassis.

old starter and brand new valeo doing the same thing. could be unlucky i guess

lynall · Feb 24, 2015

Hate to say it but new britpart starter transformed the starting on my 90 when I filled the old one up with mud, it had never spun over so fast.
Ive shagged a few starters on it all to do with water and mud ingress.

biggun1 · Feb 24, 2015

P38 battery not large enough?? It's a 664, puts out 800CCA and has a capacity of 115AH. How big a battery do you think it needs???

biggun1 · Feb 24, 2015

If it is still slow cranking tomorrow I think it's time to try another starter.....perhaps someone in Cornwall would be kind enough to lend me one that they know is good

RAMBIRKETT · Feb 24, 2015

Possibly a duff new starter as said. I had the same issues as you have described. Slow cranking in the cold, but fine when warm. Changed the starter for a new one and it starter no bother.

trax · Feb 24, 2015

biggun1 said:
P38 battery not large enough?? It's a 664, puts out 800CCA and has a capacity of 115AH. How big a battery do you think it needs???

haha is it.. fine that'll do :lol:

biggun1 · Feb 27, 2015

So this morning with the freshly charged battery it turned over slowly for the first revolution, I lett off the key then turned it again and it spun over quickly and fired.
I spoke to the factors I got the starter from and they really don't seem interested, telling me I'll have to buy another starter and send that one back to Valeo, if they find it faulty I'll receive a credit - Which sucks. They have however very kindly lent me a brand new 015 battery which I'm going to try tomorrow morning.
I'll report back.

biggun1 · Feb 28, 2015

With the brand new 019 battery in it is exactly the same. Cranks slowly for the first couple of revolutions, you release the key then have another go and it spins quickly and fires. Guess I'm going to have to buy another starter and send this one back for a warranty claim - what do you think the chances are of me actually getting any money back....

200TDi starting problem - not battery or starter.

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