Montyjohn said:
I've not read this entire thread, but I think your being a little unfair to your garage.
I usually do all my own work, but when I've asked for simple things from auto-electricians, like crimping on new battery terminals they refuse to do the work because they don't want a response similar to yours just because the P38 is in a bad mood that day. Lot's of places refuse basic work on these cars.

We choose to live with these grumpy cars, we need to put up with it and take responsibility when they misbehave. Which they will.

Short of cutting/drilling through an air hose, I can't think of anything that the garage could have done that they are responsible for.

If lifting it on a high lift over-extended the bags due to the wrong dampers being fitted, or moved the sensors into a dodgy region, then that's a fault with the car.

The fact that somehting packed in on the day they had it really could be just dumb luck. The fact it's been faultless for years just means you're overdue something breaking.

If it really is a failure of all four bags, then there's somehting else with with the suspension set-up that made them vulnerable to being extended.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm having a go, and maybe you've already come to this conclusion, but the quicker we accept that these things just happen, the sooner we'll be happy with our somewhat terrible life choices, and if we all follow this, garages may be more supportive with us.
Click to expand...
You can think what you want. I just said it is suspicious that it failed within about an hour of coming off of their ramp. It may have failed immediately it was lowered, it is just I did not pick it up for an hour or 2. I have not mentioned their name, as they are generally good guys. They are 4x4 specialists and some are ex-LR.

All air springs are folded in on themselves, immediately after being up on a 2-post lift for 4 hours (not sure why so long) with suspension dangling. No modifications to suspension at all, all stock. The car was dropped back to the ground with insufficient air in the bags. I have been warned that can cause them to fold over on themselves. How otherwise could these have folded in on themselves when it was working 1 hour previous to their work, working well enough to pass an MOT with no advisories?
They already openly admitted that something has seemed to damage the rear height sensors. Do not know how, they replaced them free of charge. They have not charged me to do any other work on the car, at their request (not mine as I was expecting to pay them something for their time. So I do not see how I am being unfair. I am not pursuing anything with them on this failure, and have not decided to stop using them.

Whatever has happened, is that it threw an EAS FAult. That then brought to the surface the underlying problem of bad wiring. That is not their fault, it is the overall bad design of the car that allows rain to get in there and corrode.


I will be carrying on with this on my own with the help of the excellent advice from the knowledgeable people on this forum.
 
pwood999 said:
And it's even in the owner's handbook !!

View attachment 310803
Click to expand...
I know what the manual says, and after 15 years or more of ownership I know what the lights mean when in general usage.
However, I am positive I read only a week or so ago that you can also use this combination to determine where a fault is at a high level.
These 2 lights are on solid. No flashing anywhere at this point, so no new height was selected.
 
Why did you remove the emergency inflation valves? were they not "T" in and just on the lines?

JamesBB said:
The height indicators were initially all flashing, then settled as shown here:
leds.jpg
Click to expand...

From this position did you actually try and push the "up" button?

It may go to high (light) but then push down again and it will go to normal. it looks confused.

J
 
marjon said:
Why did you remove the emergency inflation valves? were they not "T" in and just on the lines?



From this position did you actually try and push the "up" button?

It may go to high (light) but then push down again and it will go to normal. it looks confused.

J
Click to expand...
I did not T them in, just attached them directly to the lines that came out from the block. i could T them in for future usage.
 
It would be easier to do all the connector checking after you can confirm leaky bags or not, first IMO.
Put the emergency valves back on and get 60-70psi in them, drive it home, or confirm a proper leak.
Your communication issues with diagnostics will need to be sorted as you need to recalibrate the 2 new rear sensors, but start with the system holding air at height.

J
 
I wonder if all the air leaked out the system whilst it was dangling, engine off , thus the bags folding when let back down? My mot man leaves the engine running for the full duration of the test.
 
JamesBB said:
You can think what you want
Click to expand...
Not looking for an argument, just a suggestion. If it did fail due to being on the 2 post ramp, there's a clue in there what problem(s) the car might have had before it went on the ramp.
JamesBB said:
..... working well enough to pass an MOT with no advisories
....... The car was dropped back to the ground with insufficient air in the bags.
Click to expand...

Do you find it on bump stops over night? I assume not as you said it was working fine before. So if it's not normally leaking, the only reason for the bags to fully deflate on the ramp is if they had damage that is only able to leak when fully extended. If this is the case, your bags were on borrowed time.
I wouldn't expect an MOT to pick this sort of thing up. They just check if things work at the time of the MOT, not if lifting it int he air could disturb something.
 
JamesBB said:
You can think what you want. I just said it is suspicious that it failed within about an hour of coming off of their ramp. It may have failed immediately it was lowered, it is just I did not pick it up for an hour or 2. I have not mentioned their name, as they are generally good guys. They are 4x4 specialists and some are ex-LR.

All air springs are folded in on themselves, immediately after being up on a 2-post lift for 4 hours (not sure why so long) with suspension dangling. No modifications to suspension at all, all stock. The car was dropped back to the ground with insufficient air in the bags. I have been warned that can cause them to fold over on themselves. How otherwise could these have folded in on themselves when it was working 1 hour previous to their work, working well enough to pass an MOT with no advisories?
They already openly admitted that something has seemed to damage the rear height sensors. Do not know how, they replaced them free of charge. They have not charged me to do any other work on the car, at their request (not mine as I was expecting to pay them something for their time. So I do not see how I am being unfair. I am not pursuing anything with them on this failure, and have not decided to stop using them.

Whatever has happened, is that it threw an EAS FAult. That then brought to the surface the underlying problem of bad wiring. That is not their fault, it is the overall bad design of the car that allows rain to get in there and corrode.


I will be carrying on with this on my own with the help of the excellent advice from the knowledgeable people on this forum.
Click to expand...
The question is, why was there no air in the bags after the car had been on the lift? They should not have lost pressure unless there is a leak that was exposed when the bags were extended. How old are the bags?
 
Flossie said:
I wonder if all the air leaked out the system whilst it was dangling, engine off , thus the bags folding when let back down? My mot man leaves the engine running for the full duration of the test.
Click to expand...
That should not be necessary.
 
Montyjohn said:
Not looking for an argument, just a suggestion. If it did fail due to being on the 2 post ramp, there's a clue in there what problem(s) the car might have had before it went on the ramp.


Do you find it on bump stops over night? I assume not as you said it was working fine before. So if it's not normally leaking, the only reason for the bags to fully deflate on the ramp is if they had damage that is only able to leak when fully extended. If this is the case, your bags were on borrowed time.
I wouldn't expect an MOT to pick this sort of thing up. They just check if things work at the time of the MOT, not if lifting it int he air could disturb something.
Click to expand...
+1^^^^^^
 
Flossie said:
I wonder if all the air leaked out the system whilst it was dangling, engine off , thus the bags folding when let back down? My mot man leaves the engine running for the full duration of the test.
Click to expand...
I've just thought of something.
Could leaving it running actually be the issue? I appreciate this is the opposite of what you are suggesting.
If the suspension is fully extended and the engine is running, the ECU is going to think that it's too high and release air, only to find it never reaches its target level.
 
Montyjohn said:
I've just thought of something.
Could leaving it running actually be the issue? I appreciate this is the opposite of what you are suggesting.
If the suspension is fully extended and the engine is running, the ECU is going to think that it's too high and release air, only to find it never reaches its target level.
Click to expand...
Wheels off the ground the ECU should assume the car has grounded and raise the height above extended height to attempt clearance.
At no point should ir release so much air that the bags could fold in on themselves. If the owners handbook was followed, the rear hatch should have been left ajar to lock the suspension.
 
Montyjohn said:
I've just thought of something.
Could leaving it running actually be the issue? I appreciate this is the opposite of what you are suggesting.
If the suspension is fully extended and the engine is running, the ECU is going to think that it's too high and release air, only to find it never reaches its target level.
Click to expand...
I was suggesting that with the engine off the compressor can't run so a leak, if you have one, can't be topped up, springs empty will fold up when the vehicle is lowered back on to its wheels. As we don't know how long it was left dangling or how bad a leak ?
I'm a p38 newbie, still learning, probably talking balllocks?
Mines had 3 mot's over 2 yrs of my ownership and she's always been OK left dangling but it's only for 30 odd mins.
 
Datatek said:
Wheels off the ground the ECU should assume the car has grounded and raise the height above extended height to attempt clearance.
At no point should ir release so much air that the bags could fold in on themselves. If the owners handbook was followed, the rear hatch should have been left ajar to lock the suspension.
Click to expand...
Ah yes of course. Forgot about the extended setting.
 
Datatek said:
The question is, why was there no air in the bags after the car had been on the lift? They should not have lost pressure unless there is a leak that was exposed when the bags were extended. How old are the bags?
Click to expand...
The bags are Dunlops fitted 10 years ago and have seen about 3-4K miles a year.
 
Flossie said:
I was suggesting that with the engine off the compressor can't run so a leak, if you have one, can't be topped up, springs empty will fold up when the vehicle is lowered back on to its wheels. As we don't know how long it was left dangling or how bad a leak ?
I'm a p38 newbie, still learning, probably talking balllocks?
Mines had 3 mot's over 2 yrs of my ownership and she's always been OK left dangling but it's only for 30 odd mins.
Click to expand...
I was charged 4 hours labour to fit the steps, so it was dangling at least 3, could be more.
 
Datatek said:
Wheels off the ground the ECU should assume the car has grounded and raise the height above extended height to attempt clearance.
At no point should ir release so much air that the bags could fold in on themselves. If the owners handbook was followed, the rear hatch should have been left ajar to lock the suspension.
Click to expand...
I cannot say whether the rear hatch was left open or not.
 
Montyjohn said:
Not looking for an argument, just a suggestion. If it did fail due to being on the 2 post ramp, there's a clue in there what problem(s) the car might have had before it went on the ramp.


Do you find it on bump stops over night? I assume not as you said it was working fine before. So if it's not normally leaking, the only reason for the bags to fully deflate on the ramp is if they had damage that is only able to leak when fully extended. If this is the case, your bags were on borrowed time.
I wouldn't expect an MOT to pick this sort of thing up. They just check if things work at the time of the MOT, not if lifting it int he air could disturb something.
Click to expand...
It was on the bump stops within an hour or so of them completing the work and it was lowered.
 
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