Pillar
Well-Known Member
Not from this one though. Massively disappointing
Not from this one though. Massively disappointing
flat
Well-Known Member
To be honest I think these questions are weird to ask, if the answer to either indicates agreement with the question,then I don’t think that LZIR is in anyway a viable option.
Warm/dry yeah maybe as someone could ferry out blankets or remove said family to a loca hostelry etc for hot tea.
As for immediate danger? I am struggling with that a bit. How do you clarify immediate danger? If it’s an imminently life threatening situation then again, LZIR is inappropriate. If it’s safe as in ‘I might die from exposure if I am still here in 2 days’ type safe then again if it’s THAT bad then professionals are required surely? Is it possible that LZIR could actually interfere with the work of professional als and make a situation worse?
I have definitely seen the general public Male professionals jobs much harder/riskier, even though well intended.
I fee this is going a bit the way of the guy that lives near me, that drives a 15year old liveried up ‘4x4 response vehicle’ with about 10 flashing orange lights and permanently wears a high viz.
From a legal point of view, how ‘covered’ is LZIR actually? I mean if something did go wrong, will paper disclaimers stand up in court etc?
The dispatch agents have been brought on to carry out that most terrible of things-health n safety. Basically a risk assessment. It wasn't being done before and now it is. So yes, some of the questions are by appearance a bit silly. But then they do need answering. If there is immediate danger and they post on here they are gonna get told to ring the proper services. All very obvious to some, but not all. Common sense isn't that common.
At the risk of stirring this argument up I'll give an example. A few years ago a bloke parked his truck (3 tonner) on the beach and went for a surf. The inevitable happened: the tide came in. His truck was swamped up to the top of the tyres and sinking further into the sand before he came back. Was it serious? Well, it was certainly getting serious for his truck and for his livelihood (the truck was for his landscaping business). Was anyone's life in danger? No. Would the emergency services have turned up for a swamped truck? Probably not. Would the AA or whoever? Possibly, shortly after the tide had gone out most likely if their usual response time is anything to go by. The option would be to pay a local garage but after 5pm you might have a wait until someone can find them, particularly when you're 300 odd miles from London and there aren't as many people about and businesses actually close around closing time. As it happens I shoved the Landy in low and towed him straight out with my little boy loving every minute of it from the passenger seat. I'd like to think in a similar situation someone would do the same for me. That's kind of the point of LZIR for me. We help each other out. One day it might be me stuck in a rut and kicking myself for not checking the terrain properly on that day. Hopefully someone nearby will pull me out.
flat
Well-Known Member
Cool thanks, I presume records are kept?
Pillar
Well-Known Member
I quite agree. If we cast our minds back to the Wales one at Christmas, my brother and I were going to embark on a 8 hour round trip because we had nothing better to do.
When I'd got there, I would have conducted an assessment and decided whether I could have helped. More than likely we would have done a stand off recce and just laughed at the bloke.
We are all big boys, and just because LZ is used as a mechanism for asking for help, no court in the land would hold the forum accountable for any would be rescuers actions.
When I'd got there, I would have conducted an assessment and decided whether I could have helped. More than likely we would have done a stand off recce and just laughed at the bloke.
We are all big boys, and just because LZ is used as a mechanism for asking for help, no court in the land would hold the forum accountable for any would be rescuers actions.
There all on the forum.
flat
Well-Known Member
Are you sure of that? If something went wrong (life changing injury/death etc) - would the forum be held accountable as the ‘intermediary’ that put the 2 relevant parties in touch?
It’s a bit different if you happen to be driving by and see someone stuck and stop to help than if you are told about it and you then decide to help.
Seems like a grey area to me, unless someone has a definitive answer?
Behind the scenes stuff? Records of telephone calls etc?
flat
Well-Known Member
Grim
Well-Known Member
I get what you're saying, and if the situation was life threatening, then yes, they should be calling the emergency services. As for RAC/AA/other recovery services, some won't do it. I've heard of people that had broken down on lanes (admittedly, they shouldn't have gone out alone) and recovery services won't help due to location and difficulty for their vehicle to get there. A serious situation doesn't always have to mean that a life is in danger, but the only option sometimes is fellow 4x4 enthusiasts.
Pillar
Well-Known Member
Exactly that, they put a party in need and willing help in touch. LZ is not press hanging anyone into doing anything. If I was stuck and asked on a WhatsApp group for help would whatsapp be held accountable?
jamesmartin
Well-Known Member
yes theres a difference if your just waiting for the AA for tow etc its not serious,ive given plenty a hand either by tractor or landy,though if someone get stuck out at the local beach the coast guard are informed due too its nature you can be a mile out and the sea comes in from behind as well
Grim
Well-Known Member
For sure. I've seen a couple of instances where AA etc probably couldn't handle it with one guy and his vehicle, as it's taken a couple of landy's, a few straps and other recovery gear to get the stuck vehicle moving. Admittedly, some cases, a bit of planning and research may have prevented them getting stuck.
That would be quite a daunting prospect for any Landy though, being submerged in the sea!! What was the furthest out you had to go to recover someone?
Phone calls aren't recorded. By the point phone calls are being made it's usually a stuck person relaying their position to someone who has chosen to come out to assist them. We cannot tell anyone to go or tell them not to so we advise from the info given-which is not always a true reflection of the situation. Therefore we advise any one that does want to help they can walk away at any point. No point hurting people or landies.
Hicap phill
Well-Known Member
Previous recovery work involved rally cars that were off on Forest stages.
Hanging from a front winch & using the rearwinch is fun in small doses.
Yes this was sometimes payed & MSA forms signed for legal purposes. Things can go wrong quick but a slow thought process & walk through can stop these things from starting.
Bit like getting the owner to sign the disclaimer. This slows you down & not pilling straight into the danger they have put themselves in.
But if out for a jolly & I find someone stuck they put the recovery kit to their motor I check it & off we go. If they moan it could be a long walk back.
As said in earlier posts common sense & where there's blame there's a claim society is getting worse.
I do enjoy all the comments on LZR. It's a good discussion topic
Hanging from a front winch & using the rearwinch is fun in small doses.
Yes this was sometimes payed & MSA forms signed for legal purposes. Things can go wrong quick but a slow thought process & walk through can stop these things from starting.
Bit like getting the owner to sign the disclaimer. This slows you down & not pilling straight into the danger they have put themselves in.
But if out for a jolly & I find someone stuck they put the recovery kit to their motor I check it & off we go. If they moan it could be a long walk back.
As said in earlier posts common sense & where there's blame there's a claim society is getting worse.
I do enjoy all the comments on LZR. It's a good discussion topic
flat
Well-Known Member
Dunno that’s why I was asking, *shrugs*
jamesmartin
Well-Known Member
20-30 miles for people i know generally local or situations you come across for people i dont,its not a rule
Hippo
Lord Hippo
When I mentioned the AA/RAC above... they will use their own patrols at first. If it's more than they can do or want to do, then they call in more help. That could end up with a wrecker winching yer 200 meters if needed. There are specialist recovery companies which recover cars from the bottom of a cliff etc for insurance companies. They won't put themselves or others at risk. There's no guarantee they'll rescue yer without damage. It's a service they can provide. In reality they have a serious amount of kit/help available. Far more than we have. It's an option if needed but it will cost. It's a companiy so there's no surprise it will cost.
Hippo
Lord Hippo
Peeps talking about when a recovery is an emergency or not... Look back at the Honda recovery. Info obtained was incorrect. It was said to just need a quick tug. It was at the bottom of a steep wet grass slope on a hill side. Vehicles trying to recover got themselves in a dangerous situation where they could have rolled off the hill side.
Also look at the one where two tratters got stuck in 3 or 4 foot of snow in Wales. All they wanted was someone to pull them out. Problem was the same as above, the vehicle assisting would also get stuck. They spent some time trying to dig themselves out. It got dark and they asked for help. Ended up staying in their tratters with the engine running for heat over night until friends recovered them.
In both situations the stuckee’s perception of the situation was to consider it none emergency. The honda could walk home. The snow tratters were int middle of know where and therefore at great risk.
Ones perception of danger is different to the next persons. Part of the role of the dispatch agent is to assess the situation by obtaining enough info beforehand. If it’s too difficult or needs help of the emergency services, or the recovery goes t*ts up, then they make that choice and everyone sticks to it. It’s true there’s a lot of questions but not everyone admits at first how difficult the recovery may be. Some don’t need recovery until the next day.
Also look at the one where two tratters got stuck in 3 or 4 foot of snow in Wales. All they wanted was someone to pull them out. Problem was the same as above, the vehicle assisting would also get stuck. They spent some time trying to dig themselves out. It got dark and they asked for help. Ended up staying in their tratters with the engine running for heat over night until friends recovered them.
In both situations the stuckee’s perception of the situation was to consider it none emergency. The honda could walk home. The snow tratters were int middle of know where and therefore at great risk.
Ones perception of danger is different to the next persons. Part of the role of the dispatch agent is to assess the situation by obtaining enough info beforehand. If it’s too difficult or needs help of the emergency services, or the recovery goes t*ts up, then they make that choice and everyone sticks to it. It’s true there’s a lot of questions but not everyone admits at first how difficult the recovery may be. Some don’t need recovery until the next day.
madmonky
Member
Well this thread stirred up far more than just the peat I was stuck in!
I am aware of how LZIR procedures work, although with crap signal, covered in mud and help on the way, replying was the least of my concerns at the time (I also then had a week of holiday to proceed with once un-stuck).
No I was not in any danger, it was simply a very stupid mistake and one I have learnt from. If I was in danger then I would have called the appropriate services (with John O Groats fire department a few miles away). What I actually did was contact UK 4x4 response (Highland 4x4 Response in this case) after trying to phone the local fire dispatch office with no success and posting on here to see if anyone was in the area.
Obviously, no one was (not surprising given where we were! also no farmers for a couple of miles to be begged). I contact 4x4 response who ended up confirming that of the two people who cover that area, one couldn't leave work at the time and the other one's vehicle was currently away having work done. The dispatcher then offered to come up from south of Inverness. An hour later I was pulled out by a disco 4 with a tiny ATV winch and a bit of tugging once I was a bit closer to firm ground. I called 4x4 response back and told him. I will be donating to H4x4 Response to cover the cost of the fuel he spent driving 2 hours for nothing.
After all that, we drove up to the viewpoint and continued the rest of the holiday, all be it with the brakes smelling like a log burning stove for a couple of days despite trying to clear as much out by hand (car washes are not too common up there).
So now for the bit you wanted. Pictures of a small stupid man stuck in a standard D2 on road tyres in a very soggy hole
(at the time of the pictures I had put ~20 head sized rocks in that hole...all of which had disappeared. I still cant quite get my head around how soft it was under the surface)
As you can see it was just sat on the diff's. with a CDL and some better tyres I think it would have pulled itself out backwards but not this time. Lesson learnt!
I am aware of how LZIR procedures work, although with crap signal, covered in mud and help on the way, replying was the least of my concerns at the time (I also then had a week of holiday to proceed with once un-stuck).
No I was not in any danger, it was simply a very stupid mistake and one I have learnt from. If I was in danger then I would have called the appropriate services (with John O Groats fire department a few miles away). What I actually did was contact UK 4x4 response (Highland 4x4 Response in this case) after trying to phone the local fire dispatch office with no success and posting on here to see if anyone was in the area.
Obviously, no one was (not surprising given where we were! also no farmers for a couple of miles to be begged). I contact 4x4 response who ended up confirming that of the two people who cover that area, one couldn't leave work at the time and the other one's vehicle was currently away having work done. The dispatcher then offered to come up from south of Inverness. An hour later I was pulled out by a disco 4 with a tiny ATV winch and a bit of tugging once I was a bit closer to firm ground. I called 4x4 response back and told him. I will be donating to H4x4 Response to cover the cost of the fuel he spent driving 2 hours for nothing.
After all that, we drove up to the viewpoint and continued the rest of the holiday, all be it with the brakes smelling like a log burning stove for a couple of days despite trying to clear as much out by hand (car washes are not too common up there).
So now for the bit you wanted. Pictures of a small stupid man stuck in a standard D2 on road tyres in a very soggy hole
(at the time of the pictures I had put ~20 head sized rocks in that hole...all of which had disappeared. I still cant quite get my head around how soft it was under the surface)
As you can see it was just sat on the diff's. with a CDL and some better tyres I think it would have pulled itself out backwards but not this time. Lesson learnt!
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