Joe_H
Well-Known Member
'Tis truly amazing mate... a wonder of modern techologicowizzardry and things of - the like - For example - MY OM636 unit - was actually THROTTLED by a butterfly valve actuating a vacuum FP control via the intake pressure - amazing !! - truly amazing what those whiz kids of the 50's got up to.It's all so clever these days. Did you know that they can now make cider that doesn't contain apples. I guess that leaves more room for the alcohol
Did you also know - you may not - but hey
- that a modern compression ignition engine uses AIR intake (ok - let us be less simplistic - the QUANTITY of the MASS of 'air' to control the output the engine ? (we used to call it 'throttle' but that is an OTTO' term - not a compression ignition - so so incorrectly used by the great unwashed.- but really ! -ain't that a shock ! ??? not simply - squirt and see, rather - measure accurate intake of 02 and other sensors then add appropriate fuel to the appropriate content of 02.. It is amazing technology really - it is not 'throttled' by fuel - it is 'controlled' by the amount of fuel entering in accordance with the 02 content at a given time with appropriate sensor input. That way, similar to cider, they can make 'power' with acceptable and usable fuel consumption from a simple measurement of AIR INTAKE (MASS) when applied to other simple sensors. Gone are the days of 'pour it in and see if it smokes laddy - if so , back it off a bit....''Oh. and while you are at it, add some oil to the exposed rocker lube pots will ya lad ??'
It is so good to have moved on.
Oh
Here is my 'farm yard' impression ...................
'OY !! get OFF that Fecking Tractor !!'
Joe_H
Well-Known Member
Eee lad, Old Dougie eh ? - well , unfortunately not so old...I must stop posting at the same time as you.
Nice Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy reference Joe
Here is a pic of the 'out of date' fitter'' contemplating an Early Bambleweeny 57 ECU System along with a sensor derived Brownian Motion input from Fuel molecular breakdown to control injection - by AIR control ....
As in a nice cup of tea.....
About sums it up completely ...... brain the size o a peanut and expects a job parking cars. - Poor Marvin the paranoid android... Who believed the correct and constant Stoichiometric ratio of gasoil in all conditions was 42. without a towel.
In response to ridiculous claims of fuelling throttle only I can only add the following 'ecclesiastical / engineering study' (God it looks right'
) on the factors controlling power deliver in a compression ignition engine .It is actually the Vogon injection dilemma related to Schrodinger's cat
Oh freddled gruntbuggly,
Thy micturations are to me,
As plurdled gabbleblotchits,
On a lurgid bee,
That mordiously hath blurted out,
Its earted jurtles,
Into a rancid festering confectious organ squealer. [drowned out by moaning and screaming]
Now the jurpling slayjid agrocrustles,
Are slurping hagrilly up the axlegrurts,
And living glupules frart and slipulate,
Like jowling meated liverslime,
Groop, I implore thee, my foonting turling dromes,
And hooptiously drangle me,
With crinkly bindlewurdles,
Or else I shall rend thee in the gobberwarts with my blurglecruncheon,
See if I don't!
Absolute proof - the Bammbleweeny 57 ECU does NOT and never did use any form of throttling, it is simply a misguided word used by numpties who no beggar all else.
It is the MICE I tell you.........
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Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Joe_H
Well-Known Member
That would explain some of the quite deluded comments from 'anon' Nodge.......I think you need another
Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster
When the white lightening ran out - as the 'can bus' ceases service at this time of night... then ... nothing is left apart from a bottle of drain cleaner, some bicarb of soda and RED toothpaste.......................... then -
"After two of those babies, the dullest, most by-the-book Vogon will be up on the bar in stilettos, yodeling mountain shanties and swearing he's the king of the Gray Binding Fiefdoms of Saxaquine"
seems to be about right for the diatribe emission from the various orifice ...
That of course, presume an upright position..........................................
Joe_H
Well-Known Member
Quite true, it is often the case. True and accurate diagnosis of a problem is the most difficult part. Correct diagnosis allows them to identify the area that needs fixing. Then they need the skill and experience to actually replace the part., It is usually the customer who pays dearly for the lack of skill in the technician. So many are simple part swappers as they have nothing else to resort to. Too many technicians believe that all they need is a scan tool for most tech issues - if it say sensor X fault - they change sensor x - then oops, it doesn't work. Even with live data and graphing on quality diagnostic units the lack of ability to understand what they are seeing is quite glaring.
The skills needed today are completely different from 20 years ago, and also skills from 20 years ago are not that valid even 10 years ago - as for todays vehicles - the complexity is amazing, but also so is the self diagnostics - still the difficulty remains in knowing how to turn the guidelines from the scan tool into a physical test to confirm the issue else again the person is simply a parts swapper costing the customer dearly and usually giving up and telling them it is another issue and must go to the main dealer. This 'shop hopping' is so common as to be crazy. It is a continuous learning process and needs a wide and in depth knowledge of a range of subjects.
Nodge68
Well-Known Member
Technician's of today are just renamed "Fitter's" of yesterday. Most don't have a clue about the items they are changing, or what the items function is. They just swap this part and that part, in the hope that they'll get lucky. Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Either way, the person paying the bill gets stung, not that the "fitter" cares.
Proper diagnosis requires an understanding of the modern engine and how all its components work together. Then after a few tests on various sensors, the faulty item can be pinpointed, without the need for random part changing.
Diagnostic equipment can help to a degree. However they normally display the symptom of the fault, not the actual fault. This is where "fitters" fall short. Mostly because they don't have a clue what fault creates a particular symptom.
Classic example is the MAF. Now the M47R ECU will control fuel supplied, based on measured air mass. Now if the MAF signal starts to reduce, because of sensor film oxidation. The ECU will reduce fueling accordingly, to limit black smoke production. This will lower the torque the engine produces. Now the casual "fitter" will throw on a new LP fuel pump and filter, because those items can cause a loss of torque. However it's the MAF causing the issue. So a perfectly serviceable fuel pump was changed for no reason, the engine is still low on torque.
This is where an in depth knowledge of the modern engine comes into play.
Proper diagnosis requires an understanding of the modern engine and how all its components work together. Then after a few tests on various sensors, the faulty item can be pinpointed, without the need for random part changing.
Diagnostic equipment can help to a degree. However they normally display the symptom of the fault, not the actual fault. This is where "fitters" fall short. Mostly because they don't have a clue what fault creates a particular symptom.
Classic example is the MAF. Now the M47R ECU will control fuel supplied, based on measured air mass. Now if the MAF signal starts to reduce, because of sensor film oxidation. The ECU will reduce fueling accordingly, to limit black smoke production. This will lower the torque the engine produces. Now the casual "fitter" will throw on a new LP fuel pump and filter, because those items can cause a loss of torque. However it's the MAF causing the issue. So a perfectly serviceable fuel pump was changed for no reason, the engine is still low on torque.
This is where an in depth knowledge of the modern engine comes into play.
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Joe_H
Well-Known Member
Absolutely !. the small workshops are closing all the time here - even the medium sized ones. It is ALL down to lack of ability. Many actually say that it is IMPOSSIBLE to work on modern vehicles - that is their reasoning. The truth is it is perfectly possible, it is the ability of the people working there that unfortunately cannot progress. The skill needed to be a spanner man or extremely skilled diagnostic guy on normal mechanical systems to then being aware of and able to use electronic diagnostics (not simply scan code readers ) is a HUGE difference. The ability to understand electronics considerably above a basic level - the ability to understand and visualise how a system works - even in component blocks is a huge hurdle. Also correctly reading and interpreting wiring diagrams is a level many cannot get their head around. By interpreting I do not just mean 'following it and tracing' I mean looking at and understanding the interactivity.
I have seen ECU's condemned at HUGE expense due to a 'fitter' changing a sensor from a code diag - finding it didn't work, Checking the connector plug with (what he believes should have - a reference supply, a ground (digital / analogue ecu supplied ground as opposed to chassis) and a sensor input to the ecu.
He checks with his multimeter and sees 5v ground so supply is ok (he thinks) and then sees a constant 5v on the sensor (which is supposed to be an input TO ecu - hence concludes the ecu is the culprit and condemns it - at the customers expense - which may actually lead to the car being scrapped as an uneconomical repair.
His fault finding is totally flawed as he is not ware that most inputs to the ecu are internally 'pulled up' to 5v by a reasonably high value resistor. His multi-meter cannot detect this and is not the tool for the job. A simple 50 / 100 mA load (via a small test light) - the larger ones are ok but tend to run around 200mA - still fine for this though. would show the 'input' is pulled up by a fairly high value (as should be expected) and the bulb does not light - even at 20mA via an LED it would not illu,inate tan the 5v on the input would drop to virtually zero. The pull-up internal to the ECU is simply to prevent a floating supply input in the even of failure or disconnection and is standard practice.
Sorry Lady - your car is an uneconomical repair when the issue was actually a corroded ground terminal on the connector plug that you could also have tested with your simple light, yet showed perfectly ok with a multi meter.
Skinny Mike
Well-Known Member
@Nodge68 @Joe_H
A story!!
Work van goes to have a service. It's given to one of the younger technician's(fitter) Job done, I pick it up.
Off on my merry way, pick up fly tips etc, go to the tip.
Sat in said van, raise tipper, oh Eck, I can smell burning rubber. Check with mate, he can smell burning rubber. So thinks something is smouldering in the waste and better tell the tip operatives.
Lower tipper set off, plumes off smoke from the engine, warning light disco time. Park van safely and jump out. Wait a minute with fire extinguishers at the ready, smoke subsides.
Open bonnet after a bit, the drive belt has come off, crank pulley collapsed, pulley tensioner stuck solid.
One of the time served technician's comes down, shakes his head and Tut's, well, swore alot actually. This should have been picked up on the service.
Technician's aren't actually that anymore. Just glorified fitters.
Only upside to this, is I got to drive the old 110 defender he came down in forgotten how tractor like they are
This all happened last week. And they say my jobs boring, never a dull moment.
Mike
A story!!
Work van goes to have a service. It's given to one of the younger technician's(fitter) Job done, I pick it up.
Off on my merry way, pick up fly tips etc, go to the tip.
Sat in said van, raise tipper, oh Eck, I can smell burning rubber. Check with mate, he can smell burning rubber. So thinks something is smouldering in the waste and better tell the tip operatives.
Lower tipper set off, plumes off smoke from the engine, warning light disco time. Park van safely and jump out. Wait a minute with fire extinguishers at the ready, smoke subsides.
Open bonnet after a bit, the drive belt has come off, crank pulley collapsed, pulley tensioner stuck solid.
One of the time served technician's comes down, shakes his head and Tut's, well, swore alot actually. This should have been picked up on the service.
Technician's aren't actually that anymore. Just glorified fitters.
Only upside to this, is I got to drive the old 110 defender he came down in
forgotten how tractor like they areThis all happened last week. And they say my jobs boring, never a dull moment.
Mike
Skinny Mike
Well-Known Member
The joy of modern job titles, call everybody by the same title and you can pay em all less money, no matter what specialty they have.A fitter assembles things a mechanic repairs things. A lot of modern technicians can't do either.
Me, unofficial title "Sh1t shifter”
Official title "estate officer" I mean, what does that even stand for?? Sounds like im some jumped up official handing out fines.
Although they call the bin men "waste disposal operatives" they really hate that
Mike
Joe_H
Well-Known Member
I welcome your humility in admitting you are so far past it that you now admit openly to being devoid of knowledge, as a humble, and fairly low IQ fitter yourself you, can do neither and are also totally deficient in learning potential - mostly due to your attitudeA fitter assembles things a mechanic repairs things. A lot of modern technicians can't do either.
- a 'mechanic' can also not 'repair things' without extensive knowledge that you now quite rightly admit eludes you and also is way beyond WAY beyond your comprehension - you see, you can be sensible for a few minutes before the 'can bus' arrives.If that is your admission of submission for the day in your porcine attitude.. well done... a red star on your wall chart.
There is a small brain like object underneath the BS......
Alas, I doubt it.....
I welcome your confession as to lack of knowledge and ability.
Joe_H
Well-Known Member
Hey - mike mate - I always have - for 40 years - called them Spanner W&nkers.The joy of modern job titles, call everybody by the same title and you can pay em all less money, no matter what specialty they have.
Me, unofficial title "Sh1t shifter”
Official title "estate officer" I mean, what does that even stand for?? Sounds like im some jumped up official handing out fines.
Although they call the bin men "waste disposal operatives" they really hate that
Mike
......The epitome was the Kwik fit fitter - a spanner w&nker with a windy gun
Jeez Criz -....
I mean, would you buy a car of these guys ? or the resident troll ?? - yikes -
Arthur Daley - err troll cough cough - he's the man to trust....
Joe_H
Well-Known Member
Amazon employs 'Geometrical construction technicians' (SeriouslyThe joy of modern job titles, call everybody by the same title and you can pay em all less money, no matter what specialty they have.
Me, unofficial title "Sh1t shifter”
Official title "estate officer" I mean, what does that even stand for?? Sounds like im some jumped up official handing out fines.
Although they call the bin men "waste disposal operatives" they really hate that
Mike
) We call them box openers and packers - or Polaks ...
Oooops....
The joy of modern job titles, call everybody by the same title and you can pay em all less money, no matter what specialty they have.
Me, unofficial title "Sh1t shifter”
Official title "estate officer" I mean, what does that even stand for?? Sounds like im some jumped up official handing out fines.
Although they call the bin men "waste disposal operatives" they really hate that
Mike
Sadly most technicians are nothing like as skilled as the old mechanics were. And as it has been said just change things until they get a result. Many will know how to change a gearbox for instance but not many could strip and repair it. Sign of the times unfortunately, power plants or at least their control systems are becoming more complexed due to emission regulations and manufacturers producing vehicles that are designed to preclude servicing other than at dealers. You only need to look at the new Range Rover for evidence of that. For some jobs on the engine and transmission the body has to be lifted off. Try that in your drive.
I welcome your humility in admitting you are so far past it that you now admit openly to being devoid of knowledge, as a humble, and fairly low IQ fitter yourself you, can do neither and are also totally deficient in learning potential - mostly due to your attitude
If that is your admission of submission for the day in your porcine attitude.. well done... a red star on your wall chart.
There is a small brain like object underneath the BS......
Alas, I doubt it.....
I welcome your confession as to lack of knowledge and ability.
Think you need to take English lessons in order that you are able to understand what is written Same as when you read technical bumff and don't understand it. Then repeat parrot fashion a load of bollocks.
Lowbank
Active Member
When modern car manufacturers design this systems, do they do PFMEA's. They dont seem to, some modern cars are just downright dangerous. Two examples.
I had a VW passat 07 plate. They had a common fault on the injectors. Mine, dash lights up like a christmas tree and engine is cut by ECU. I am doing about 20 up this hill , first dab the brakes, then think it might make it over the crest as there is no where to stop where its cut out. Dont make it to the top of the hill and car starts rolling back. The dabbing of brakes used the servo assistance, so when I push the brakes feck all happens. Hit the hand brakes electric switch, starts to put hand brake on, electronics sense car is moving and immediately release hand brake. Car rolls about 30 yards backwards till it levels out.
So no power steering, no brakes, no emergency brake. I was working that hard trying to ensure it didnt hit anything going backwards My brain didnt think to try putting it in gear, but as I was turned arpund looking out the back window in a panic not I would have completed the action anyway.
So point is ECU senses an injector failure, as the new ijectors can fail open it turns off the engine, this has happened to people in the 3 rd lane of the motoway. How can they have an emergycy brake that will go on. madness. Oh yes and VW want £4000 for four injectors. Luckily for me VOSA had put out a safety dirrective instructing VW to change them for free.
Second one happened 4 weeks ago, Brand new Audi, 800 miles on the clock. Oil light comes on, just as one of our managers turns onto the slip road at Preston. few yards later car stops itself . Poor guy in th transit van behind him ploughs into the back of said Audi. Now if they did a PFMEA as we would . Full title Process Failure Mode and effect analysis.
You would assess the failure mode and and what the effect would be . Then you try to mitigate said effect. So engine not running is the failure mode, effect would be car stops, whats the risks , driver behind has no warning. Mitigation, turn the fecking hazzards on.
people will have to killed before action is taken.
One main reason I wanted a Freelander is it has stick type thing, with some wires connected that attach to some wizardry that stops the wheels turning WHEN I decide
Rant over
ps I would not own another VW/Audi if you paid me to own it.
I had a VW passat 07 plate. They had a common fault on the injectors. Mine, dash lights up like a christmas tree and engine is cut by ECU. I am doing about 20 up this hill , first dab the brakes, then think it might make it over the crest as there is no where to stop where its cut out. Dont make it to the top of the hill and car starts rolling back. The dabbing of brakes used the servo assistance, so when I push the brakes feck all happens. Hit the hand brakes electric switch, starts to put hand brake on, electronics sense car is moving and immediately release hand brake. Car rolls about 30 yards backwards till it levels out.
So no power steering, no brakes, no emergency brake. I was working that hard trying to ensure it didnt hit anything going backwards My brain didnt think to try putting it in gear, but as I was turned arpund looking out the back window in a panic not I would have completed the action anyway.
So point is ECU senses an injector failure, as the new ijectors can fail open it turns off the engine, this has happened to people in the 3 rd lane of the motoway. How can they have an emergycy brake that will go on. madness. Oh yes and VW want £4000 for four injectors. Luckily for me VOSA had put out a safety dirrective instructing VW to change them for free.
Second one happened 4 weeks ago, Brand new Audi, 800 miles on the clock. Oil light comes on, just as one of our managers turns onto the slip road at Preston. few yards later car stops itself . Poor guy in th transit van behind him ploughs into the back of said Audi. Now if they did a PFMEA as we would . Full title Process Failure Mode and effect analysis.
You would assess the failure mode and and what the effect would be . Then you try to mitigate said effect. So engine not running is the failure mode, effect would be car stops, whats the risks , driver behind has no warning. Mitigation, turn the fecking hazzards on.
people will have to killed before action is taken.
One main reason I wanted a Freelander is it has stick type thing, with some wires connected that attach to some wizardry that stops the wheels turning WHEN I decide
Rant over
ps I would not own another VW/Audi if you paid me to own it.
