myfirstl322
Well-Known Member
Ironically it looks like it survived due to paired down windage.
heli_madken
Well-Known Member
Exhaust arrived today, first attempts at fitting are not going so well.
The first problem is my fault, I figured I would order a range rover 3.9 EFI system the rational being a larger bore system than the 3.5. But I hadnt realised the gearbox cross member is different so oops -
The pipe from the collector heads straight to the cross member. Looking on line I cant seem to find any pictures of the 3.9 cross member or one for sale, does anyone have a 3.9 they can look at for me?
Failing getting hold of a 3.9 cross member I thought what I could do is to cut the cross member square across the line drawn in the picture above, flip the end 180' then weld a plate joining this to the lower section. This would allow the exhaust to go under the cross member and the prop shaft to go over. I can add gussets for strength etc.
So for now I removed the cross member and this is where its gone from bad to worse.
This is a Double S stainless exhaust, first problem was that the manifold flanges are way to big so I had to trim some material to get them to clear the cylinder head bolts. Getting them to line up with the manifold bolts was something else and I needed to make some of the holes in the manifolds bigger.
Next is this, the manifolds run needlessly close to the chassis, bit difficult to see sorry -
But now for the killer, the Y section is just to narrow, all my attempts up to now I havent been able to get it to fit -
It was worse to begin with I have managed to open it out a little.
Can someone please give me a sanity check, I have always assumed that all rover V8's from the 3.5 through to the 4.6 share the same external dimensions?
To me its almost like the manifolds have not been built correctly, why would they run so close to the chassis and the chassis I am sure in that area would be the same as the 3.9?
Not sure where I go from here.
The first problem is my fault, I figured I would order a range rover 3.9 EFI system the rational being a larger bore system than the 3.5. But I hadnt realised the gearbox cross member is different so oops -
The pipe from the collector heads straight to the cross member. Looking on line I cant seem to find any pictures of the 3.9 cross member or one for sale, does anyone have a 3.9 they can look at for me?
Failing getting hold of a 3.9 cross member I thought what I could do is to cut the cross member square across the line drawn in the picture above, flip the end 180' then weld a plate joining this to the lower section. This would allow the exhaust to go under the cross member and the prop shaft to go over. I can add gussets for strength etc.
So for now I removed the cross member and this is where its gone from bad to worse.
This is a Double S stainless exhaust, first problem was that the manifold flanges are way to big so I had to trim some material to get them to clear the cylinder head bolts. Getting them to line up with the manifold bolts was something else and I needed to make some of the holes in the manifolds bigger.
Next is this, the manifolds run needlessly close to the chassis, bit difficult to see sorry -
But now for the killer, the Y section is just to narrow, all my attempts up to now I havent been able to get it to fit -
It was worse to begin with I have managed to open it out a little.
Can someone please give me a sanity check, I have always assumed that all rover V8's from the 3.5 through to the 4.6 share the same external dimensions?
To me its almost like the manifolds have not been built correctly, why would they run so close to the chassis and the chassis I am sure in that area would be the same as the 3.9?
Not sure where I go from here.
LincolnSteve
Well-Known Member
So sorry to hear about your problems. I hope you’re able to find a solution. Take your time and maybe walk away from it for a day or two. Things can sometimes look a little better after a break. Good luck.
It seems like to many pieces are wrong, the exhaust is much to close to the chassis.
Get in touch with exhaust maker and ask their advice, show them the photos.
Hopefully, they have cocked up and will be able to see where
Get in touch with exhaust maker and ask their advice, show them the photos.
Hopefully, they have cocked up and will be able to see where
heli_madken
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone.
I have made initial contact with the supplier see what they say. I am not too hopeful it took over 6 weeks to get this exhaust and I am not too sure I want to wait further for another manifold which still might not fit. This is a stainless Double S exhaust I must say that overall I am not that impressed with the quality of workmanship on the parts and welding. Also 409 grade stainless is one of the least rust resistant steels of all the grades. In relation to the money I paid I am less than happy with it.
So I think I have three options here and would like to know peoples thoughts.
Firstly, wait for Double S to respond, I kind of know they are going to claim they should fit and will enter into a long drawn out battle. The problem I have here is I have non standard Merlin heads, I have written to RPI for confirmation that the machined exhaust mating surfaces are at the same angle as the standard heads, I am sure they will be but it will give Double S something to claim.
Secondly, Double S seem to have cornered the market with stainless exhausts for the Classic Range Rover so there is no point ordering anything else. So I could return the entire exhaust and go back to the original cast iron manifolds and buy a mild steel exhaust for now with a view to building a stainless system in the future.
The advantage of this route is that I can get the body back on quickly which I am anxious to do after the recent episode with Storms which seem to keep coming.
Lastly, admit to myself that I always knew I would have to alter any exhaust, suck it up and start cutting and welding. This is what I would have to do -
Carefully cut off the manifold exhaust flanges here -
Grind off the welds and face off the tubes at an angle so I can weld them back on to clear the chassis. I would need to build a heat shield to protect the starter solenoid as it will get toasted otherwise.
Next cut off the downward slant at the end of the headers and weld on a straight section of tube -
Then cut off the upward section of the Y pipe and its joining flange and stitch in a straight section of pipe. I will also need to stitch in pipe where the label is to match the new width of the manifolds -
The aim of this is to come across the top of the gearbox cross member which I may need to notch a little for clearance.
Then I will need to make any other adjustments to marry up the rest of the exhaust and alter the mounting points which should be straight forward enough.
The only flaws with this approach is that warranty is out of the window and also welding 409 stainless steel which I have never done but if I struggle I can always farm this out.
Heard back from the supplier who claims it should fit with some force which I know it wont so my feelings are at present to take the last approach but am I throwing good money after bad?
Apologies for the long post, it does actually help to write it all down
I have made initial contact with the supplier see what they say. I am not too hopeful it took over 6 weeks to get this exhaust and I am not too sure I want to wait further for another manifold which still might not fit. This is a stainless Double S exhaust I must say that overall I am not that impressed with the quality of workmanship on the parts and welding. Also 409 grade stainless is one of the least rust resistant steels of all the grades. In relation to the money I paid I am less than happy with it.
So I think I have three options here and would like to know peoples thoughts.
Firstly, wait for Double S to respond, I kind of know they are going to claim they should fit and will enter into a long drawn out battle. The problem I have here is I have non standard Merlin heads, I have written to RPI for confirmation that the machined exhaust mating surfaces are at the same angle as the standard heads, I am sure they will be but it will give Double S something to claim.
Secondly, Double S seem to have cornered the market with stainless exhausts for the Classic Range Rover so there is no point ordering anything else. So I could return the entire exhaust and go back to the original cast iron manifolds and buy a mild steel exhaust for now with a view to building a stainless system in the future.
The advantage of this route is that I can get the body back on quickly which I am anxious to do after the recent episode with Storms which seem to keep coming.
Lastly, admit to myself that I always knew I would have to alter any exhaust, suck it up and start cutting and welding. This is what I would have to do -
Carefully cut off the manifold exhaust flanges here -
Grind off the welds and face off the tubes at an angle so I can weld them back on to clear the chassis. I would need to build a heat shield to protect the starter solenoid as it will get toasted otherwise.
Next cut off the downward slant at the end of the headers and weld on a straight section of tube -
Then cut off the upward section of the Y pipe and its joining flange and stitch in a straight section of pipe. I will also need to stitch in pipe where the label is to match the new width of the manifolds -
The aim of this is to come across the top of the gearbox cross member which I may need to notch a little for clearance.
Then I will need to make any other adjustments to marry up the rest of the exhaust and alter the mounting points which should be straight forward enough.
The only flaws with this approach is that warranty is out of the window and also welding 409 stainless steel which I have never done but if I struggle I can always farm this out.
Heard back from the supplier who claims it should fit with some force which I know it wont so my feelings are at present to take the last approach but am I throwing good money after bad?
Apologies for the long post, it does actually help to write it all down
If you search on here you will find many (mainly defenders but I believe same chassis width and gearbox crossmembers ish) have the same clearance issues.
I dont expect any difference in the exterior size of your heads.
What is the best way around it, is a very difficult answer.
You have such a lovely engine you don't want to stifle it.
You are not happy with the workmanship and material.
But you want to get the body on (understandable) But of course that hampers access.
You can buy tubular manifold kits to weld up yourself, with the correct manifold flanges if you thought of tackling it yourself. (cost?)
As for the starter heat shield many ways round it, I would say wrap the manifold cos it will get hot under the bonnet with that beast. Its on the list to do the 630R cos it dont half chuck heat out when under loads (towing)
In some of the threads are some recommendations of other exhaust manufacturers.
Sorry no real answer, and understand your frustration.
J
I dont expect any difference in the exterior size of your heads.
What is the best way around it, is a very difficult answer.
You have such a lovely engine you don't want to stifle it.
You are not happy with the workmanship and material.
But you want to get the body on (understandable) But of course that hampers access.
You can buy tubular manifold kits to weld up yourself, with the correct manifold flanges if you thought of tackling it yourself. (cost?)
As for the starter heat shield many ways round it, I would say wrap the manifold cos it will get hot under the bonnet with that beast. Its on the list to do the 630R cos it dont half chuck heat out when under loads (towing)
In some of the threads are some recommendations of other exhaust manufacturers.
Sorry no real answer, and understand your frustration.
J
heli_madken
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the support much appreciated.
Yes I remember looking at a 110 thread where they had clearance issues but as it was 2008 I thought the problem should have been sorted by now, obviously not.
I meant to say in my head I stupidly thought I was going to get this lovely shiny stainless steel exhaust, in reality it looks not unlike mild steel and just as dull, plus there are plenty of scratch marks inflicted during manufacture. So I think wrapping the headers is definitely on the cards.
Yes I remember looking at a 110 thread where they had clearance issues but as it was 2008 I thought the problem should have been sorted by now, obviously not.
I meant to say in my head I stupidly thought I was going to get this lovely shiny stainless steel exhaust, in reality it looks not unlike mild steel and just as dull, plus there are plenty of scratch marks inflicted during manufacture. So I think wrapping the headers is definitely on the cards.
LincolnSteve
Well-Known Member
My two-penneth would be to return the stainless one and go standard for now. Gets the big project moving and could make an interesting mini project at a later date. I appreciate accessibility is going to be harder later but also having everything in place to show you exactly where it needs to go with no surprises when another bit goes back on can also be good. One caveat though, I have a habit of making really stupid decisions but with very good intentions. Feel free to ignore me.
Hicap phill
Well-Known Member
Send it back… you have spent enough time on it to know it’s wrong.
As for cross member it was built for a v8 so should be right. Nothing has changed ie gearbox location or diff angles so unsure why it’s touching.
Later RR/disco are tubes but look bigger
Later TD5 90 ones are smaller
As for cross member it was built for a v8 so should be right. Nothing has changed ie gearbox location or diff angles so unsure why it’s touching.
Later RR/disco are tubes but look bigger
Later TD5 90 ones are smaller
heli_madken
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone,
Apparently the 3.9 had a tubular cross member and the exhaust went underneath it, not convinced though that there would be enough room with this exhaust.
What you are saying sounds sensible and I know I should really send it back but I dont think it will take me that much time to alter the exhaust so long as I can weld the stainless ok. I think the other killer factor is do I really want to put this back on my car -
The studs are well and truly fooked and rusted into the flange solid, its going back on the scrap pile.
Just waiting on bits to get started on the exhaust so thought I would get the tailgate done so I can put it away.
First off gave the inside surfaces a coat of primer and gloss -
Before attaching the skins I gave everything a coat of dinitrol. The top joint I used some seam sealer to stop water getting in and bonded the the mid joint together and to the frame with Sikaflex. What I was aiming for was not to use any welding so all the internal paintwork is intact. Attached the lower section and dressed over all the flanges. Finished off with a thin bead of seam sealer to make sure water cant get through the joint, some filling required in areas -
And then an initial coat of primer -
One other task I am getting done is propshafts, for the front I simply used a 15mm spacer to make up the length -
I have a long journey up to Bonnybridge next week to get the rear propshaft shortened by 15mm, could not find anyone to do it closer.
I will let you know how I am getting on with the exhaust.
Apparently the 3.9 had a tubular cross member and the exhaust went underneath it, not convinced though that there would be enough room with this exhaust.
What you are saying sounds sensible and I know I should really send it back but I dont think it will take me that much time to alter the exhaust so long as I can weld the stainless ok. I think the other killer factor is do I really want to put this back on my car -
The studs are well and truly fooked and rusted into the flange solid, its going back on the scrap pile.
Just waiting on bits to get started on the exhaust so thought I would get the tailgate done so I can put it away.
First off gave the inside surfaces a coat of primer and gloss -
Before attaching the skins I gave everything a coat of dinitrol. The top joint I used some seam sealer to stop water getting in and bonded the the mid joint together and to the frame with Sikaflex. What I was aiming for was not to use any welding so all the internal paintwork is intact. Attached the lower section and dressed over all the flanges. Finished off with a thin bead of seam sealer to make sure water cant get through the joint, some filling required in areas -
And then an initial coat of primer -
One other task I am getting done is propshafts, for the front I simply used a 15mm spacer to make up the length -
I have a long journey up to Bonnybridge next week to get the rear propshaft shortened by 15mm, could not find anyone to do it closer.
I will let you know how I am getting on with the exhaust.
Hicap phill
Well-Known Member
If you can weld, the prop is an easy job.
It has an internal collar to make mating up/re welding easy
Did you take the measurement of the prop when it was on bump stops?(no springs) allows for bottoming out
It has an internal collar to make mating up/re welding easy
Did you take the measurement of the prop when it was on bump stops?(no springs) allows for bottoming out
heli_madken
Well-Known Member
I think I assumed that balancing the prop after welding would be difficult, also making sure it was phased correctly. Guess I am not brave enough to try cutting it down myself.
As for measurement the gearbox is 15mm longer, I found a thread somewhere that listed the distance between flanges and true enough mine was 15mm shorter, seemed to make sense to take the 15mm of the length.
As for measurement the gearbox is 15mm longer, I found a thread somewhere that listed the distance between flanges and true enough mine was 15mm shorter, seemed to make sense to take the 15mm of the length.
heli_madken
Well-Known Member
Hi Everyone,
Really bad Man-Flu and Christmas has slowed me down some but I am on track now and have the exhaust sorted.
For the manifolds I took some drastic action and carefully trimmed off the flanges and removed the downward angle tail piece -
Bolted the flanges in place and used a spacer to get the clearance I wanted to the chassis and tack welded in place -
I bolted the manifold to some plate steel, partly to keep everything lined up but also to act as a heat soak to control cool down -
Used some 308 stainless welding wire and a Mapp torch both to pre-heat and cool down slowly the welds to prevent cracking. Got everything welded in place. Welds arent 'pretty' but will do the job and I got better penetration in to the tube than Double S did -
Test bolted back in place, thats better -
I am not convinced the flanges are stainless they are too soft so I gave them a coat of ceramic manifold paint for protection -
I cut out the upward bend on both sides of the 'Y' section and used some 409 tube to make a straight section which I held in place with some battens so I could get both sides done and tacked -
Once done I could wrap the manifolds and get them bolted in place, to be sure I lined the chassis with some reflective film which you can just see -
The cross member needed to be notched for clearance, I used some 4mm plate to get some strength back -
Then I could get the Y piece fixed in place and wrapped and the O2 sensors fitted -
The 3.9 must have some form of bracket welded to the chassis for the forward mount as it was completely in the wrong place so I had to cut it off the rear of the silencer and re-weld it nearer to the gearbox mount, I used a 3.9 chassis mount which worked well -
The middle mount was in the correct place at least -
Silencer fits well -
For the rear mount I made up a simple bar chassis mount and again cut off the rear pipe mount and welded it to suit the original 3.5 chassis mount -
Rear tail pipe is nice and big, I have some positional adjustment available, for now I have just guessed where it should exit -
Next up is to sort the gearbox cooler pipes out, fit the gearbox breather pipes, give the body a good clean and then I am ready to fit it back to the chassis. At least the weather over the next few days looks good.
Really bad Man-Flu and Christmas has slowed me down some but I am on track now and have the exhaust sorted.
For the manifolds I took some drastic action and carefully trimmed off the flanges and removed the downward angle tail piece -
Bolted the flanges in place and used a spacer to get the clearance I wanted to the chassis and tack welded in place -
I bolted the manifold to some plate steel, partly to keep everything lined up but also to act as a heat soak to control cool down -
Used some 308 stainless welding wire and a Mapp torch both to pre-heat and cool down slowly the welds to prevent cracking. Got everything welded in place. Welds arent 'pretty' but will do the job and I got better penetration in to the tube than Double S did -
Test bolted back in place, thats better -
I am not convinced the flanges are stainless they are too soft so I gave them a coat of ceramic manifold paint for protection -
I cut out the upward bend on both sides of the 'Y' section and used some 409 tube to make a straight section which I held in place with some battens so I could get both sides done and tacked -
Once done I could wrap the manifolds and get them bolted in place, to be sure I lined the chassis with some reflective film which you can just see -
The cross member needed to be notched for clearance, I used some 4mm plate to get some strength back -
The 3.9 must have some form of bracket welded to the chassis for the forward mount as it was completely in the wrong place so I had to cut it off the rear of the silencer and re-weld it nearer to the gearbox mount, I used a 3.9 chassis mount which worked well -
The middle mount was in the correct place at least -
Silencer fits well -
For the rear mount I made up a simple bar chassis mount and again cut off the rear pipe mount and welded it to suit the original 3.5 chassis mount -
Rear tail pipe is nice and big, I have some positional adjustment available, for now I have just guessed where it should exit -
Next up is to sort the gearbox cooler pipes out, fit the gearbox breather pipes, give the body a good clean and then I am ready to fit it back to the chassis. At least the weather over the next few days looks good.
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heli_madken
Well-Known Member
Thanks Marjon!
One last picture of the chassis on a lovely cold crisp sunny day -
Before -
Assembly is the reverse of ... etc, except we did find it was much easier to push the body over the chassis this time, will definitely do it that way if I ever do this again -
Relieved to get this done as the body has suffered being outside and exposed in this weather, safely in the garage now.
Next up is to tidy up the floor and a few other areas then back on to body panels.
One last picture of the chassis on a lovely cold crisp sunny day -
Before -
Assembly is the reverse of ... etc, except we did find it was much easier to push the body over the chassis this time, will definitely do it that way if I ever do this again -
Relieved to get this done as the body has suffered being outside and exposed in this weather, safely in the garage now.
Next up is to tidy up the floor and a few other areas then back on to body panels.
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heli_madken
Well-Known Member
Getting the new front inner wings assembly done, fits really nice -
Sorry about the pictures being dark -
These are Froggatts panels, extremely nicely made and put together. I am bolting everything together as in the earlier cars, easier for trial fitting and ultimately painting.
What the hell lets put the wings on just to see how it looks and how it all fits -
Put my new lights on as well, pleased with these they change the look of the front end considerably -
Also got the wings stripped, cleaned with Deoxidine and treated with Alocrom 1200. Rears have had their initial blocking and trial fitted -
Incidentally I can fully recommend Durafix Easyweld aluminium rods. I have used them to patch where corrosion has damaged mounting points and also several holes in the wings. The surface tension is amazing and you can bridge quite large holes easily. I used a mapp torch to get the base metal hot enough -
Next up is to fill and block the front wings to where I want them to be. Then door frames, scuttle and bonnet, ultimately get all the body panels in primer so I can do a complete trial fit, probably a couple of weeks work.
Sorry about the pictures being dark -
These are Froggatts panels, extremely nicely made and put together. I am bolting everything together as in the earlier cars, easier for trial fitting and ultimately painting.
What the hell lets put the wings on just to see how it looks and how it all fits -
Put my new lights on as well, pleased with these they change the look of the front end considerably -
Also got the wings stripped, cleaned with Deoxidine and treated with Alocrom 1200. Rears have had their initial blocking and trial fitted -
Incidentally I can fully recommend Durafix Easyweld aluminium rods. I have used them to patch where corrosion has damaged mounting points and also several holes in the wings. The surface tension is amazing and you can bridge quite large holes easily. I used a mapp torch to get the base metal hot enough -
Next up is to fill and block the front wings to where I want them to be. Then door frames, scuttle and bonnet, ultimately get all the body panels in primer so I can do a complete trial fit, probably a couple of weeks work.
Attachments
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LincolnSteve
Well-Known Member
That's interesting about the Durafix on body panels. I made a right mess with them when I tried. Everything distorted like mad. I think my torch wasn't hot enough. Either that or you're a wizard.
heli_madken
Well-Known Member
Instructions say Butane but I think because we are working with thin large panels the natural tendency of an alloy is to dissipate heat so Mapp is really a better option hit it hard and fast. I did get distortion but nothing a hammer and dolly couldn't sort
Totally agree with this. I just don't see that you're going to be happy with the compromise system you'll end up with modifying the DoubleS to suit. It'll always be niggling. I also don't see that it'd be worth trying to make one without the car assembled. I'm in the middle of making a set of downpipes/cats for my 1993 at the moment. While it's a pain having to keep climbing under the car to test fit every time I adjust and re-tack a joint, it's been a right pain making it fit around everything. I don't think that there are many places the body could get in the way, but if you build one without the body one I'm certain you'd find one.
Richard
heli_madken
Well-Known Member
Thanks Richard,
I think I am happy with the result I have achieved and I think it was easier being able to work without the body, particularly adjusting and fitting the manifolds. The Double S system was from a 3.9 so I figured the major part of the exhaust would clear the body. Once I had the body on I could see there where no issues.
My only concern was how the tailpipe exited but as it happens my guesstimate has worked out I think. Will know more when I have the rear bumper on, I have left myself some adjustment but I think it is ok -
I think I am happy with the result I have achieved and I think it was easier being able to work without the body, particularly adjusting and fitting the manifolds. The Double S system was from a 3.9 so I figured the major part of the exhaust would clear the body. Once I had the body on I could see there where no issues.
My only concern was how the tailpipe exited but as it happens my guesstimate has worked out I think. Will know more when I have the rear bumper on, I have left myself some adjustment but I think it is ok -
