I know that:)
And would agree the OP might be better with a second car.

It’s not the diesel you have to worry about, it’s all those new fangled solar panels you have on you roof, are sure their safe:)

New things are good it’s just sometimes, old guard can’t admit (not calling you old by the way)

J

The panels are as safe as any electrical installation, they are only low voltage, and charge a battery bank.

I am in fact quite old, but generally keen to embrace new technology, if it will save me money, and be good for the environment. I not only use the panels, but I have a large wind turbine in Cornwall too.

But I always like to look for simple solutions first, and with vehicle use, the simplest way to reduce consumption will generally be to re-organise in a way that demands less mileage. And that is what I am trying to do.
 
@Hippo
Me thinks you sir have been taken in ^^^^^ by the hype:eek::eek::eek::oops:

Either that or you not taken it very serious:):)

Me thinks the latter.

J
 
A bin bag full of HHO would scare you. But the amounts produced in an HHO cell is going to be more like a poof/bang.
Hydrogen is far from safe as a single gas, expanding rapidly when ignited. But mix it with Oxygen and it becomes even more explosive.

See Thunderfoot demonstrate Hydrogen here fast forward to 6:46 for the relevant part, which is a minute or so long.

I can't see the an engine's internals lasting long, with highly fast burning gasses being introduced into the combustion chamber.
Bit like LPG I suppose
Hydrogen and Oxygen in the correct ratio to make water is very different to LPG.
 
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Hydrogen is far from safe as a single gas, expanding rapidly when ignited. But mix it with Oxygen and it becomes even more explosive

I think you miss the difference between H2 and HHO, HHO is used on demand and not stored. Not saying H2 is not explosive.
Filling a cup (upside down) with lighter gas and set it alight, see who jumps.

Hydrogen and Oxygen in the correct ratio to make water is very different to LPG

Is it ? It’s only burning gas.
We all know a car running LPG will sail through any MOT standard why is that?. So why would an exhaust producing water not be good?

I can't see the an engine's internals lasting long, with highly fast burning gasses being introduced into the combustion chamber.

As I have already said in my posts, yes it has to be considered. But then it only goes bang when you tell it. It also burns bad stuff that our petrol/diesel setups miss, hence emission standards.
There are concerns about embrittlement, but I am not going there.
What happens when you switch to LPG? Does it not switch to another ECU and alter things?
Let’s not get onto N2O then, ah but that’s breathable so why pump it in an engine to make it faster more power it’s not fuel, is it?

We also run Natural Gas in cars, is Hydrogen/HHO not an extension of this?

I take it you don’t believe the Mazda video then?

Again I enjoy a discussion about it. I seem to be in the minority here and on my own:(. (Except when hippo fits his new kit:))

J
 
Let's not forget HHO is a lot more explosive then LPG or petrol and has a much greater tendency to go bang
I guess it all depends on exactly how much HHO is introduced into the manifold and how do you even meter that? LPG is easy because it's a measured amount released
 
I think you miss the difference between H2 and HHO
Er no. If you split water into it's component gasses with electrolysis you end up with a 2 Hydrogen molecules and 1 Oxygen molecule. HHO as a name is simply based on the molecular count of Hydrogen X 2 =HH and Oxygen X 1 = O, putting them together gives HHO. I don't know why it's called brown gas as it'll be clear and highly explosive. Unless the explosion gives anybody near by brown trousers.
HHO is used on demand and not stored.
How is it metered if used on demand? If it's added for economy, then surely it needs to be used most of the time.
Not saying H2 is not explosive.
Good, because it is highly explosive.

Filling a cup (upside down) with lighter gas and set it alight, see who jumps.
Lighter gas less than a 3rd of the energy that Hydrogen gas has when burned in air. Adding O to HH, the cap will explode, not just go poof.

It’s only burning gas
Hydrogen explodes violently, it doesn't just burn.
So why would an exhaust producing water not be good?
I'm not talking about extra water from the exhaust. Water is already a by-product of normal engine combustion. You'll see it on a cold morning, before the exhaust system has heated up. It's a simple chemical reaction between a complex mix of Hydrocarbon molecules (petrol, diesel or LPG), and air (mostly Nitrogen, Oxygen with some lesser gasses).

Petrol molecule is made up as such: C8H18 (or 8 Carbon atoms and 18 Hydrogen atoms) Energy is obtained from the combustion of it by the conversion of this hydrocarbon to carbon dioxide and water. The combustion of process follows this reaction: 2 C8H18 + 25 O2 → 16 CO2 + 18 H2O Or better said, you have two of the hydrocarbon molecules along with 25 oxygen atoms, they swirl together into a mix, the spark plug ignites them, and out the exhaust comes 16 carbon dioxide molecules and 18 water molecules.
So providing the engine is running correctly more water molecules come out the exhaust than carbon molecules.


We all know a car running LPG will sail through any MOT standard why is that?
LPG and HHO are two very different things. If an engine only passes the MOT when running on LPG, then it's running badly and needs fixing correctly.

So why would an exhaust producing water not be good?
It's irrelevant. There's already huge amounts of water in exhaust gasses from burning a Hydrocarbon fuel in air.
But then it only goes bang when you tell it.
Does it? A vehicle engine has to ignite the fuel in the chamber before the power is needed, as the flame burns slowly. This pre-ignition is call ignition advance, and has to be there, or the energy runs inefficiently and very hot, especially the exhaust side of the engine.

Adding H2 + O to the mixture will reduce the need for ignition advance, so how is this overcome if destructive detonation is to be avoided?

It also burns bad stuff that our petrol/diesel setups miss, hence emission standards
A correctly running engine shouldn't have any undue build up of deposits and should burn cleanly anyway. If it's not, then it needs fixing.

What happens when you switch to LPG? Does it not switch to another ECU and alter things?

It has to do some modification to the combustion cycle, but it's irrelevant as HHO isn't LPG, not even close.

Let’s not get onto N2O then, ah but that’s breathable so why pump it in an engine to make it faster more power it’s not fuel, is it?
N2O is an oxidizer. It's added to an engine as a sort of chemical turbocharger. If N2O is being used, then extra fuel is needed at the same time, or no power is gained, and the engine melts pistons. Even when extra fuel is added, the pistons often melt.

Again it's irrelevant here, as were discussing HHO, not the properties of Nitrous Oxide.

We also run Natural Gas in cars, is Hydrogen/HHO not an extension of this
Natural gas a complex molecular string, just like LPG, petrol or diesel.
This molecular string is made up of Hydrogen and Carbon molecules. Not simply pure Hydrogen with Oxygen.
I take it you don’t believe the Mazda video then
Didn't see the video. Sorry.
hho generators are bull***

That's my opinion.
 
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Sorry I said vid but it’s olny an article.

I see you know your way around the chemical make ups.

Just have a look at hydrogen highway Norway and see what they are doing.

“Browns gas” name of the guy who invented it. Think he was Bulgarian actually.

J
 
I see you know your way around the chemical make ups.

No more than high school chemistry and physics from 35 years ago.

IMO, Brown's Gas and HHO as a fuel is a scam. These scams are based on the idea that you can disassociate hydrogen and oxygen from water using electricity. However the engine then has to provide extra work to spin the alternator, and this extra work comes from the fuel being burnt. The alternator is probably around 60% efficient and the IC engine more like 30% efficient. So straight away there's huge losses in the system.

Like I said right at the beginning of this thread. It'll take more energy from the alternator to break H2O into H2 and O, than burning it will generate.

There's no free lunches with physics. ;)
 
No more than high school chemistry and physics from 35 years ago

Wish I could remeber what I learnt in school sometimes.

I am not saying it’s a free lunch, and understand the inefficient production process can be a limiting factor.

As a fuel you cannot deny it is clean. Does it need a lot more r&d for sure it does.
But hey we (the human race) have done all sorts of stuff that was first poo pooed. And after a lot of nay sayers but still persevering has led to some great things.

Is it a scam? I suppose it all depends on what you think you are getting and why. I will admit that some/most of the claims made by sellers tend to be all good and exaggerated. But then what seller doesn’t do the same thing regardless of the product?

Does H2 &HHO have a place/use in our future? I think it does.

Guess we will have to wait now for the OP to get back to us all when he fits his. :)

J
 
This just gets betterer and betterer. If eye can collect the additional hot water from the eggsauce eye can have a bath fer free and pump the eggsauce gas through the house radiators to heat it fer free, if eye leave me engine ont tick over, generating fool eye can sell. :)
 
I can tell @Hippo is getting in on the r&d :)

@Turboman how many posters don’t get the answer they want, but still go ahead anyway:D

Although I will admit don’t think it’s the best choice of vehicle to test it on. Now hippos hippo might be the ideal test subject/sacrifice :oops::D
J.
 
As a fuel you cannot deny it is clean.
As a cleaner fuel, if it was environmentally cheap to make, the Hydrogen is a good fuel source.
Does it need a lot more r&d for sure it does.
More thorough and unbiased testing would be more useful.

But hey we (the human race) have done all sorts of stuff that was first poo pooed. And after a lot of nay sayers but still persevering has led to some great things.
That's true enough.

Is it a scam? I suppose it all depends on what you think you are getting and why. I will admit that some/most of the claims made by sellers tend to be all good and exaggerated.
I put it up there with fuel magnets and special twin core HT leads for MPG improvements.:D
Does H2 &HHO have a place/use in our future? I think it does
I would only be viable if production of the stuff doesn't require huge amounts of electricity to make it, which unfortunately, at the present time, it does.

I looked at the spec of one of the kits available. It shows a current consumption of 35 Amps, which at 12 Volts nominal would be 420 Watts.:eek: That's a huge demand on the alternator, and will definitely use lots of extra power from the engine to provide it. That's actually more power than needed to run the AC compressor, so the electrical demand alone will hamper it's ability to add economy.

Guess we will have to wait now for the OP to get back to us all when he fits his.
I look forward to it.:)
 
I've not given up yet.
There's a reason hydrogen isn't used in the ICE, well at least 2! Firstly storage, that's difficult. You simply can't store that much of it in a container, even if that container is at many thousands of psi. That means the power to weight ratio is poor.
Secondly, petrol (or diesel) 'burns very quickly' (I don't know the scientific word for that) but it doesn't explode, usually. Sometimes it does and that's what we usually hear as knocking or 'pinking' noises. We all know this is a bad thing.
Hydrogen explodes, or detonates, see above.
That doesn't go into HHO specifically, but if meaningful amounts are used then surely is going to be bad for your engine. If lesser amounts are in play, then my guess would be that is not making any real difference. That's irrespective of the energy requirements to split water in the first place
 
I've not given up yet.
There's a reason hydrogen isn't used in the ICE, well at least 2! Firstly storage, that's difficult. You simply can't store that much of it in a container, even if that container is at many thousands of psi. That means the power to weight ratio is poor.
Secondly, petrol (or diesel) 'burns very quickly' (I don't know the scientific word for that) but it doesn't explode, usually. Sometimes it does and that's what we usually hear as knocking or 'pinking' noises. We all know this is a bad thing.
Hydrogen explodes, or detonates, see above.
That doesn't go into HHO specifically, but if meaningful amounts are used then surely is going to be bad for your engine. If lesser amounts are in play, then my guess would be that is not making any real difference. That's irrespective of the energy requirements to split water in the first place

Petrol and diesel do explode if mixed with air at the right proportions, and under the correct temperature and pressure conditions.

Personally, I would not introduce hydrogen into a motor vehicle engine, unless that engine had been specifically designed to burn hydrogen.
But for those who wish to experiment, they are welcome to do so at their own cost, not a problem to me.
 
So rather than driving along taking normal air for combustion why would it not be cleaner and more efficient if you drove down a tunnel containing oxygen rich air.
 

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