When is the US going to get "real" Land Rovers?

R. David Steele <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:

> |A better solution might be the new Discovery III, which apparently is a
> |much, much better off-roader than the Defender. I'm wondering, since one
> |option is to get a Disco III with a 4.4L Jaguar engine, how long it will
> |be before someone bolts on the supercharger from the Jag XJR/XKR to the
> |Disco?
>
> Any info on this??

Full review in Top Gear magazine this month.

Brief review at: http://www.carbc.com/Car-News-764.html
and another at: http://tinyurl.com/336mn
and another at: http://tinyurl.com/3cajd

The online reviews don't mention the interesting idea of the webcam
provided that can be mounted on any part of the bodywork that gives a
picture on the dash screen. This allows (e.g.) the camera to be attached
to the chassis so that you can check the terrain close up for rock
scrambling. They do mention the terrain response system that allows a
driver to dial in the type of terrain they are driving on and get a
pre-set combination of suspension, transmission and hill descent
settings for that type of terrain. Hill descent now includes the option
to select descent speed.

The online sites also mention that the Discovery III will be available
with a 4.0 V6 from the world's best selling SUV "in some markets". So I
don't suppose it takes long to guess, Explorer 4.0V6, North America.

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Pantelis Giamarellos <[email protected]> wrote:

> As for the US military, it does use Land Rovers. IIRC US Marines and some
> other special forces use them.

The Marines and others (Rangers?) ordered a small number of Defenders
after the first Gulf War, because the Defender turned out much more
suitable for the rapid desert raids than the Hummer. However IIRC the
Defenders were ordered without engines to be fitted with GMC 6.3L V8
diesels on arrival. I'm not sure how that would affect desert driving,
for the worse I would think it's a heavy engine.

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On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 02:53:43 GMT, R. David Steele
<[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:

>and, btw, US gas prices are now climbing over $2 per gallon, or
>so my wife recently told me.

With the GBP:USD rate as it is at the moment, petrol in the UK is
getting on for $2 per litre ...

--
QrizB

"On second thought, let's not go to Z'Ha'Dum. It is a silly place."

R. David Steele wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 16:47:46 GMT, "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> R. David Steele wrote:
>>> Why can't the US get Defender 90s, 110s and 130s?
>>
>> The main problem is that LR and Ford's marketing dept have trouble
>> seeing where they wouls fit in to the US market. They would be
>> smaller than many US pick-ups but would be more expensive to buy.
>> They do not have the comfort and luxury of a typical US pick-up and
>> most of the market demands this. The sheer utility of a Defender and
>> the off-road ability would of course be superior to most pick-ups
>> but perhaps still not create a large enough market to make them
>> viable. LR continually say the no longer sell Defenders in the US
>> because of emmissions and passenger airbag issues - this of course
>> is nonsense as they sell thousands of Discoverys with exactly the
>> same engine and emmissions and fitting a passenger airbag is not
>> beyond the engineering wit of Lode Lane either. On the upside, the
>> US will definitely get the new Defender based on the T5 chassis in a
>> few years, so you'll have to hang on.
>
> Word was that we were going to get the TD6, not the TD5. And you
> forget that we have a midsize and compact size pickup market.
> All most all the big trucks have smaller brothers.
>
I realise that, but the market for a Defender in the US that is the same
size as the smaller pick-ups but costs more than the full-size ones is still
thought to be very limited by LR. Maybe they are wrong. The TD6 is also too
expensive to fit to Defenders and has already been dropped by Ford as it is
a BMW engine and they don't like buying outside. You should however get the
new Ford-Peugeot 2.7 V6 diesel jointly developed for the new Discovery which
has 200bhp and 300lb-ft of torque.

>>>
>>> Why can't we have diesel powered Landies?
>>>
>> The two biggest problems are that US diesel is very porr quality
>> with a high sulfur content and modern high-tech turbo-diesels won't
>> swallow it. The other problem is that petrol is cheap and there in
>> very little diesel-car culture in the states yet. It would however
>> be great to drive a 30mpg TD5 in the states so you can tell all the
>> tree-huggers who think you drive a gas-guzzling SUV to **** off!
>
> We have low sulfur diesel now. I have a VW Jette TDI back in the
> states. In fact the US environmental laws are far more harsh
> than anything in Europe.
>
They can't be that harsh judging by the the numbers of people I see over
there driving round in 6.8 litre V10 petrol motors! I think petrol will need
to get a lot more expensive than it is now before a real market for diesels
in anything but large pick-ups will develop properly, rather than just a
niche.

> BTW, Jeep is suppose to sell the Liberty with the Mercedes Common
> Rail Diesel but that not yet happened.
>
There are no technical reasons why you should not have a big choice of
diesels - it's the marketing departments of the motor manufacturers who
don't believe the market exists or you would already have them.

>>> And why doesn't the US military use the Defender as a basic, and
>>> cheaper, vehicle for the average troops?
>>
>> Politically, it is very difficult for the US to procure non-domestic
>> military kit. Even when the US military decided they must have
>> British Harriers, the top brass had to lie to congress and leap
>> through all sorts of hoops to make them look American before they
>> could purchase them. Same thing with the British Chobham armour used
>> on all abrams tanks. The US Rangers bought some special Defenders
>> called RSOV but I doubt they will ever figure very highly.
>
> LD is now part of Ford Motor Company, just as Jeep is now part of
> Mercedes.

Perception is reality I'm afraid. People see LR and think English. Maybe
when the POTUS swaps his limo for a Jag your army will get LR's, but I
wouldn't hold my breath!

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

|>> R. David Steele wrote:
|>>> Why can't the US get Defender 90s, 110s and 130s?
|>>
|>> The main problem is that LR and Ford's marketing dept have trouble
|>> seeing where they wouls fit in to the US market. They would be
|>> smaller than many US pick-ups but would be more expensive to buy.
|>> They do not have the comfort and luxury of a typical US pick-up and
|>> most of the market demands this. The sheer utility of a Defender and
|>> the off-road ability would of course be superior to most pick-ups
|>> but perhaps still not create a large enough market to make them
|>> viable. LR continually say the no longer sell Defenders in the US
|>> because of emmissions and passenger airbag issues - this of course
|>> is nonsense as they sell thousands of Discoverys with exactly the
|>> same engine and emmissions and fitting a passenger airbag is not
|>> beyond the engineering wit of Lode Lane either. On the upside, the
|>> US will definitely get the new Defender based on the T5 chassis in a
|>> few years, so you'll have to hang on.
|>
|> Word was that we were going to get the TD6, not the TD5. And you
|> forget that we have a midsize and compact size pickup market.
|> All most all the big trucks have smaller brothers.
|>
|I realise that, but the market for a Defender in the US that is the same
|size as the smaller pick-ups but costs more than the full-size ones is still
|thought to be very limited by LR. Maybe they are wrong. The TD6 is also too
|expensive to fit to Defenders and has already been dropped by Ford as it is
|a BMW engine and they don't like buying outside. You should however get the
|new Ford-Peugeot 2.7 V6 diesel jointly developed for the new Discovery which
|has 200bhp and 300lb-ft of torque.
|
|>>>
|>>> Why can't we have diesel powered Landies?
|>>>
|>> The two biggest problems are that US diesel is very porr quality
|>> with a high sulfur content and modern high-tech turbo-diesels won't
|>> swallow it. The other problem is that petrol is cheap and there in
|>> very little diesel-car culture in the states yet. It would however
|>> be great to drive a 30mpg TD5 in the states so you can tell all the
|>> tree-huggers who think you drive a gas-guzzling SUV to **** off!
|>
|> We have low sulfur diesel now. I have a VW Jette TDI back in the
|> states. In fact the US environmental laws are far more harsh
|> than anything in Europe.
|>
|They can't be that harsh judging by the the numbers of people I see over
|there driving round in 6.8 litre V10 petrol motors! I think petrol will need
|to get a lot more expensive than it is now before a real market for diesels
|in anything but large pick-ups will develop properly, rather than just a
|niche.

Too many gear heads into performance vehicles among US automotive
engineers. That is the real problem.

We do have a large diesel market, truck based. And people are
now wanting diesels in the smaller pickups. They also want a
pickup that is tough. Most US pickups will not take the abuse
that the LD Defender will take. Besides we have too many Toyota
pickups anyway.

|> BTW, Jeep is suppose to sell the Liberty with the Mercedes Common
|> Rail Diesel but that not yet happened.
|>
|There are no technical reasons why you should not have a big choice of
|diesels - it's the marketing departments of the motor manufacturers who
|don't believe the market exists or you would already have them.
|
|>>> And why doesn't the US military use the Defender as a basic, and
|>>> cheaper, vehicle for the average troops?
|>>
|>> Politically, it is very difficult for the US to procure non-domestic
|>> military kit. Even when the US military decided they must have
|>> British Harriers, the top brass had to lie to congress and leap
|>> through all sorts of hoops to make them look American before they
|>> could purchase them. Same thing with the British Chobham armour used
|>> on all abrams tanks. The US Rangers bought some special Defenders
|>> called RSOV but I doubt they will ever figure very highly.
|>
|> LD is now part of Ford Motor Company, just as Jeep is now part of
|> Mercedes.
|
|Perception is reality I'm afraid. People see LR and think English. Maybe
|when the POTUS swaps his limo for a Jag your army will get LR's, but I
|wouldn't hold my breath!

when I tell the local cops about how British bobbies drive the
Jag XJ8, they are ready to swap their Crown Vics in for the XJ8.
Now there would be a sales tool! US folks do like to buy what
the coppers drive.

|> As for the US military, it does use Land Rovers. IIRC US Marines and some
|> other special forces use them.
|
|The Marines and others (Rangers?) ordered a small number of Defenders
|after the first Gulf War, because the Defender turned out much more
|suitable for the rapid desert raids than the Hummer. However IIRC the
|Defenders were ordered without engines to be fitted with GMC 6.3L V8
|diesels on arrival. I'm not sure how that would affect desert driving,
|for the worse I would think it's a heavy engine.

Question: how tough is the Defender in comparison to the Hummer?
Will it take the abuse that US soldiers give?

Frankly, in comparison to the cost of the Hummer, an armored LD
would allow us to equip more troops with vehicles.

Nothing is going to stop an RPG-7 round this side of a tank.
But a little armor might help protect from small arms fire and
some land mines.

My concern is having a vehicle that does not cost us over
$100,000 US.

I think one of the deciding factors in the purchase of Defenders for SF use
is that they are air portable, and fit inside Chinook helicopters, this
allows SF teams to be flown behind enemy lines with transport. A lot better
than having to drive over hostile terrain to your patrol area.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]/OMEGA says...
>
> |> As for the US military, it does use Land Rovers. IIRC US Marines and some
> |> other special forces use them.
> |
> |The Marines and others (Rangers?) ordered a small number of Defenders
> |after the first Gulf War, because the Defender turned out much more
> |suitable for the rapid desert raids than the Hummer. However IIRC the
> |Defenders were ordered without engines to be fitted with GMC 6.3L V8
> |diesels on arrival. I'm not sure how that would affect desert driving,
> |for the worse I would think it's a heavy engine.
>
> Question: how tough is the Defender in comparison to the Hummer?
> Will it take the abuse that US soldiers give?
>
> Frankly, in comparison to the cost of the Hummer, an armored LD
> would allow us to equip more troops with vehicles.
>

Half the abuse the Hummer is subjected to is due to it's own lumbering
weight.

> Nothing is going to stop an RPG-7 round this side of a tank.
> But a little armor might help protect from small arms fire and
> some land mines.

Not being the size of a battleship or as slow as one helps you not to
get shot in the first place.

> My concern is having a vehicle that does not cost us over
> $100,000 US.
>

Isn't that the cost of a chevy pickup with green paint in the US
military?

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____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

R. David Steele <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:

> Question: how tough is the Defender in comparison to the Hummer?
> Will it take the abuse that US soldiers give?

The Hummer has a reputation of being rather fragile, among the British
military. Certainly the H1 at least was regarded as a mild joke rather
than a battle vehicle. I think the H2 was supposed to be better.

The Land Rover isn't perfect, but it is IMO way better than a Hummer as
far as rugged build and longevity goes. I just saw a reminder (on TV
tonight) that for the ultimate in off-road there's the Bowler Wildcat.
Loosely based on a Defender with Hummer type long travel suspension and
a decent V8. It's capable of 0.-60 in 5s but can also travel all day
across the desert at >70mph. At GBP 40,000 it's also still (just)
cheaper than a Hummer.

> Frankly, in comparison to the cost of the Hummer, an armored LD
> would allow us to equip more troops with vehicles.

The SAS tend to use very old Land Rovers, Series III with a windscreen
(only), no roof. These are both v. cheap and v. rugged and they can
carry a decent payload.

> Nothing is going to stop an RPG-7 round this side of a tank.
> But a little armor might help protect from small arms fire and
> some land mines.

Well... composite armour is a possibility as well as reactive armour. It
may be possible to get an armoured vehicle that could stop an RPG and
still weigh less than 7 tonnes.

> My concern is having a vehicle that does not cost us over
> $100,000 US.

Cost of a hammer to the US Army isn't it? (Independence Day)

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R. David Steele <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:

> when I tell the local cops about how British bobbies drive the
> Jag XJ8, they are ready to swap their Crown Vics in for the XJ8.

There's one American cop car that is a poor copy of the older XJ40 - I
think it's a Pontiac. Can't recall the name of it, but it has the same
overall look of an XJ40 with the same square headlights.

> Now there would be a sales tool! US folks do like to buy what
> the coppers drive.

Humm, very few UK coppers get to drive XJ8s. Nowadays they are mostly
reserved for Whitehall (government) use. The standard "tool" for
motorway work is the Volvo T5. Most local coppers use a Vauxhall Astra
(GM) or a Peugeot (French but built in Coventry). I couldn't see any
doughnut sucking American Cop fitting behind the steering wheel of the
either of last two cars.

One of the police stations I visit for my work has a fleet of Ford
Explorers.

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So, the Defender might do as an affordable
combat vehicle. What is that Mercedes G-Wagon?
I hear that it is over $100,000!!!

And now the army is pushing some "off the shelf"
Chevy truck that is going to cost $100,000 per
unit!!! No wonder they have to make the military
smaller, there is no other way to equip the troops.

But then the Canadian army only has four tanks....



>>Question: how tough is the Defender in comparison to the Hummer?
>>Will it take the abuse that US soldiers give?
>
>
> The Hummer has a reputation of being rather fragile, among the British
> military. Certainly the H1 at least was regarded as a mild joke rather
> than a battle vehicle. I think the H2 was supposed to be better.
>
> The Land Rover isn't perfect, but it is IMO way better than a Hummer as
> far as rugged build and longevity goes. I just saw a reminder (on TV
> tonight) that for the ultimate in off-road there's the Bowler Wildcat.
> Loosely based on a Defender with Hummer type long travel suspension and
> a decent V8. It's capable of 0.-60 in 5s but can also travel all day
> across the desert at >70mph. At GBP 40,000 it's also still (just)
> cheaper than a Hummer.
>
>
>>Frankly, in comparison to the cost of the Hummer, an armored LD
>>would allow us to equip more troops with vehicles.
>
>
> The SAS tend to use very old Land Rovers, Series III with a windscreen
> (only), no roof. These are both v. cheap and v. rugged and they can
> carry a decent payload.
>
>
>>Nothing is going to stop an RPG-7 round this side of a tank.
>>But a little armor might help protect from small arms fire and
>>some land mines.
>
>
> Well... composite armour is a possibility as well as reactive armour. It
> may be possible to get an armoured vehicle that could stop an RPG and
> still weigh less than 7 tonnes.
>
>
>>My concern is having a vehicle that does not cost us over
>>$100,000 US.
>
>
> Cost of a hammer to the US Army isn't it? (Independence Day)
>

Steve Firth ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

> I think the H2 was supposed to be better.

I thought the H2 was a farcical joke restyle of a Chevy Suburb?

Steve Firth wrote:
> R. David Steele <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:
>
>
>>|A better solution might be the new Discovery III, which apparently is a
>>|much, much better off-roader than the Defender. I'm wondering, since one
>>|option is to get a Disco III with a 4.4L Jaguar engine, how long it will
>>|be before someone bolts on the supercharger from the Jag XJR/XKR to the
>>|Disco?
>>
>>Any info on this??
>
>
> Full review in Top Gear magazine this month.
>
> Brief review at: http://www.carbc.com/Car-News-764.html
> and another at: http://tinyurl.com/336mn
> and another at: http://tinyurl.com/3cajd
>
> The online reviews don't mention the interesting idea of the webcam
> provided that can be mounted on any part of the bodywork that gives a
> picture on the dash screen. This allows (e.g.) the camera to be attached
> to the chassis so that you can check the terrain close up for rock
> scrambling. They do mention the terrain response system that allows a
> driver to dial in the type of terrain they are driving on and get a
> pre-set combination of suspension, transmission and hill descent
> settings for that type of terrain. Hill descent now includes the option
> to select descent speed.
>
> The online sites also mention that the Discovery III will be available
> with a 4.0 V6 from the world's best selling SUV "in some markets". So I
> don't suppose it takes long to guess, Explorer 4.0V6, North America.
>

Now if they would only see the diesel V-6 in the US. We have
lots of folks who are into diesels these days. VW is seeing a
huge jump in business due to the gas prices.

BTW, great sites!!!!!

Steve Firth wrote:
> R. David Steele <[email protected]/OMEGA> wrote:
>
>
>>when I tell the local cops about how British bobbies drive the
>>Jag XJ8, they are ready to swap their Crown Vics in for the XJ8.
>
>
> There's one American cop car that is a poor copy of the older XJ40 - I
> think it's a Pontiac. Can't recall the name of it, but it has the same
> overall look of an XJ40 with the same square headlights.
>
>
>>Now there would be a sales tool! US folks do like to buy what
>>the coppers drive.
>
>
> Humm, very few UK coppers get to drive XJ8s. Nowadays they are mostly
> reserved for Whitehall (government) use. The standard "tool" for
> motorway work is the Volvo T5. Most local coppers use a Vauxhall Astra
> (GM) or a Peugeot (French but built in Coventry). I couldn't see any
> doughnut sucking American Cop fitting behind the steering wheel of the
> either of last two cars.
>
> One of the police stations I visit for my work has a fleet of Ford
> Explorers.
>

Mostly around here it is Crown Victoria but we are
seeing more Chevy Impalas as there has been a law
suit with Ford and Ford will not see to many cities
in my state.

And we have less over weight police these days. For one
thing, the average LEO has only 3 years experience (most
quit before they reach five years). Lots of young, athletic
guys with big egos.

Adrian <[email protected]> wrote:

> Steve Firth ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
> they were saying :
>
> > I think the H2 was supposed to be better.
>
> I thought the H2 was a farcical joke restyle of a Chevy Suburb?

Am I getting my numbers mixed up? I thought the Tahoe derivative was the
H3.

BTW, most amusing thing I have seen on the automotive front this year is
a Hummer dealer in Paris, on the left bank near the Eiffel Tower. Was it
really wise to call all the potential consumers "cheese-eating surrender
monkeys"? And even if it was forgiveable, HTF do you drive a Hummer in
Paris? I can barely get my Exploder through some of the streets.

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"Steve Firth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1gcgo9p.16cmkqt5d3h0hN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk...
> BTW, most amusing thing I have seen on the automotive front this year is
> a Hummer dealer in Paris, on the left bank near the Eiffel Tower. Was it
> really wise to call all the potential consumers "cheese-eating surrender
> monkeys"? And even if it was forgiveable, HTF do you drive a Hummer in
> Paris? I can barely get my Exploder through some of the streets.

It was a character on the Simpsons (Groundskeeper Willie, a Scot) who called
the French "cheese-eating surrender monkeys". I don't think we can really
assume he speaks for the entire American nation. Or Scottish.

David

In article <1gcfp0l.1rbr6as11l4cvaN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk>, Steve Firth
<[email protected]> writes
>The Marines and others (Rangers?) ordered a small number of Defenders
>after the first Gulf War, because the Defender turned out much more
>suitable for the rapid desert raids than the Hummer. However IIRC the
>Defenders were ordered without engines to be fitted with GMC 6.3L V8
>diesels on arrival. I'm not sure how that would affect desert driving,
>for the worse I would think it's a heavy engine.

In addition during the latest Gulf War the US had a huge problem when
Turkey wouldn't allow military hardware to go through Turkey into
northern Iraq. The HUMMVEE won't fit inside a Chinook (too wide) and has
to be slung underneath. The LR will fit in a Chinook which makes life
easier all round. Apparently they sourced stock 110 & 130 crew cabs
locally, drove them over the boarder (humanitarian aid), then bolted
their hardware onto the load beds.

As to 'proper' LRs in the US, I presume you can still import pre-1969
series ones?

--
John
Ex MOD 109 -> http://www.photopia.demon.co.uk/landy.htm

Preston, Lancs, UK.

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 23:18:46 +0100, John Halliwell
<[email protected]> wrote:

>As to 'proper' LRs in the US, I presume you can still import pre-1969
>series ones?

Pre 1979 (25+ years old) vehicles can be imported as long as they meet
whatever the US standard was in the year they were built. Also, there
were a few NAS '93 D110's and '94, '96 and '97 D90's that were
imported (they had roll cages and V8's).
--
Charlie...

David French <[email protected]> wrote:

> It was a character on the Simpsons (Groundskeeper Willie, a Scot) who called
> the French "cheese-eating surrender monkeys".

Yes I know.

> I don't think we can really
> assume he speaks for the entire American nation. Or Scottish.

No, the people spoke for themselves by picking it up, using it and then
going on with that ridiculous "Freedom Fries" business.

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R. David Steele wrote:
> Why can't the US get Defender 90s, 110s and 130s?
>
> Why can't we have diesel powered Landies?
>
> And why doesn't the US military use the Defender as a basic, and
> cheaper, vehicle for the average troops?

The U.S. Marine anti-terrorist unit uses the Mercedes G series. Works very
well for them. Not the landrover, but still it's nice to see them use
something other than the hummer.