What have you done to your Freelander today

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We could go round in circles like so many others have done about the cause of HGF in K Series engines but it is a well documented issue, probably with more than one cause. As Tony said other car manufacturers had similar issues but addressed them. For reasons best known to Rover group management (probably cost) they never did and the upgraded HG many talk about is at best a sticking plaster on a gaping wound.
The bottom line is, if you have a K series you need to be on the lookout for the signs ie, mayo in the oil, over pressure and/or oil in the header tank etc. If your lucky you might get 50 to 60k miles between HGF, if not 10 to 20k is not unusual especially if you or your mechanic are not competent.
If you catch it early it is a relatively cheap easy fix, if not and your stopped at the roadside with steam pouring out the head will probably be damaged.
As for cooling capacity of Freelanders I think it must be pretty good, I've never heard the fans cut starting in either of my K series cars even in start stop traffic so there may be no issue with waterless coolant but unless someone tries it then we're only speculating without any facts.
 
Alibro said:
We could go round in circles like so many others have done about the cause of HGF in K Series engines but it is a well documented issue, probably with more than one cause. As Tony said other car manufacturers had similar issues but addressed them. For reasons best known to Rover group management (probably cost) they never did and the upgraded HG many talk about is at best a sticking plaster on a gaping wound.
The bottom line is, if you have a K series you need to be on the lookout for the signs ie, mayo in the oil, over pressure and/or oil in the header tank etc. If your lucky you might get 50 to 60k miles between HGF, if not 10 to 20k is not unusual especially if you or your mechanic are not competent.
If you catch it early it is a relatively cheap easy fix, if not and your stopped at the roadside with steam pouring out the head will probably be damaged.
As for cooling capacity of Freelanders I think it must be pretty good, I've never heard the fans cut starting in either of my K series cars even in start stop traffic so there may be no issue with waterless coolant but unless someone tries it then we're only speculating without any facts.
Click to expand...
:D
Buy an L series :rolleyes: :)
 
Alibro said:
We could go round in circles like so many others have done about the cause of HGF in K Series engines but it is a well documented issue, probably with more than one cause. As Tony said other car manufacturers had similar issues but addressed them. For reasons best known to Rover group management (probably cost) they never did and the upgraded HG many talk about is at best a sticking plaster on a gaping wound.
The bottom line is, if you have a K series you need to be on the lookout for the signs ie, mayo in the oil, over pressure and/or oil in the header tank etc. If your lucky you might get 50 to 60k miles between HGF, if not 10 to 20k is not unusual especially if you or your mechanic are not competent.
Click to expand...

Are you sure that later gaskets and good practice does not sort the issue?

The VVC engine I put in the Freelander had done near enough to 100K miles. I took the head off, exhaust valves needed a tidy up but the rest was mint. Liners had a very consistent 4 thou protrusion. Head had less than 3 thou "bend" but I ground it anyway. No ridging in the head and it was not soft. Put it back together with a saver shim and a good mls gasket. As long as I run good antifreeze and keep the hoses and belts good, I don't think the engine will overheat.

However I am now thinking that I should keep more of a look out for a cracked reservoir developing.
 
Joe_H said:
@Nodge
Hi mate,
Have you ever considered 'o ringing' the liner and head ? - we did that very successfully on troublesome HG engines years back. It is still current today I believe and works well with liners and alloy heads - the o ring is usually copper fitted a groove in the liner and sometimes (rarely also a slight ring cut into the head - although this is usually a small sleeve mod as opposed to 'o ringing'). You can get a custom gasket from various places however most often the 'o ringing' of a liner doesn't need a change of gasket at all. Worth considering....
Joe
Click to expand...
Hi Joe. The liner is technically a flat ring so adding another ring wouldn't work there.
The head does go soft at the fire ring contact face. This is where the HF ultimately fails catastrophically. The cause of this complete failure is caused by the lack of coolant around the fire rings/ liner tops.
The coolant can escape from many places, the header tank being very common. The other locations are from the inlet manifold gasket and the breakdown of the elastopolymer seal on the head gasket. What causes the elasto to fail is and has open for debate for many years. I believe that the huge temperature swings that the K suffers is partly to blame, possibly in combination with a degree of shimmy on the gasket surface. This shimmy is undoubtedly caused by the initial use of plastic location dowels. However these dowels were replaced by metal some time in 2003 but HGF continued after this date.

I have read about this waterless coolant and it's non boiling properties. However I wasn't aware that the stuff had such a poor thermal transfer rating. This being the case, I'd stick with water as a tried and tested cooling medium.
 
Tony Reeves said:
However I am now thinking that I should keep more of a look out for a cracked reservoir developing.
Click to expand...
Or, simply fit a better quality reservoir........ :rolleyes:

It would be really simple to design a circuit for coolant temp sensor warning buzzer / light for you that only costs a few quid - if that ! -
Also, there are loads of pressure transducers - say 15psi Gauge ? - or more. these could easily be added to sense pressure in the system.
One of the big issues with CTS units in the head or similar (as opposed to a good fitting as in the K series!) is that a sudden loss of coolant shows a LOW temp when the motor is cooked and dry as no coolant is around the sensor ! (captain cooked in fact)
Having the sensor in a lower feed line to the rad is very sensible imho...
I think with a decent reservoir tank (metal) a pressure sensor and a cts warning most issues could be cured - or at least a huge early warning given. The big issue is that the prior failure of the HG that CAUSES such an issue has already occurred and all these systems can do is try to minimise further damage. It would be an interesting exercise in monitoring though - :) - but not over 40 or 50k lol.....
I would welcome somebody brave enough to test these super fluids with pretty crappy thermal transfer and see how they go.. or indeed, if they burn extremely well when the flash point is exceeded................:eek:
It would be a very interesting experiment..........
 
The K series does suffer from hot spots in the head/ liner which does cause localised boiling. This is why some believe that the K series was a flawed design from the start.
 
Nodge68 said:
Hi Joe. The liner is technically a flat ring so adding another ring wouldn't work there.
The head does go soft at the fire ring contact face. This is where the HF ultimately fails catastrophically. The cause of this complete failure is caused by the lack of coolant around the fire rings/ liner tops.
The coolant can escape from many places, the header tank being very common. The other locations are from the inlet manifold gasket and the breakdown of the elastopolymer seal on the head gasket. What causes the elasto to fail is and has open for debate for many years. I believe that the huge temperature swings that the K suffers is partly to blame, possibly in combination with a degree of shimmy on the gasket surface. This shimmy is undoubtedly caused by the initial use of plastic location dowels. However these dowels were replaced by metal some time in 2003 but HGF continued after this date.

I have read about this waterless coolant and it's non boiling properties. However I wasn't aware that the stuff had such a poor thermal transfer rating. This being the case, I'd stick with water as a tried and tested cooling medium.
Click to expand...
Hello Nodge,
Interesting stuff. ! I am not sure what you mean by "The liner is technically a flat ring so adding another ring wouldn't work there"
It is the flat ring that the 'o ring' - usually copper - is added to by machining a small groove in the top of the liner surface. The copper is then mostly in the machined ring in the liner - but - partially above the liner machined groove. It is this area of the copper that is compressed.
Apologies if I am misunderstanding mate. This was something we used to do years ago - over 40 years ago in fact lol - but still is certainly current. The compression of the head during torque down compresses the copper 'or ring' to add a huge increase in sealing. - we used to use then for highly pressurised blown units.
I fully agree with you re the head movement as probably the greatest cause of the issue - a lot of the toyotas - especially yank spec - had a huge issue with head movement that actually caused the inner rear head bolts to shear - obviously with quite catastrophic failure ! yikes !!!!. :(.
The dowels will absolutely certainly help - but seem to only 'help' and not cure - whatever were they thinking about with plastic ones - ..... ????..
We may be at cross purposes 'cos I often use old school terms lol (as you know) - :)
But re - o ringing - I mean something like - (poor example but the theory is the same - machine a grove in the top of the liner and add copper or even a soft stainless like 316l etc -
motorswap5.jpg


The above is not a good image - but gives you an idea of what I mean. Hard work mate with old school tech haha :)
I do agree full with all you other comments !>
Joe
 
Last edited:
Nodge68 said:
The K series does suffer from hot spots in the head/ liner which does cause localised boiling. This is why some believe that the K series was a flawed design from the start.
Click to expand...
Fully and utterly agreed Nodge - I only stand my corner as it simply is NOT 'cavitation' a completely different animal whose terminology is so misquoted it has become folklore - it is exactly as you say. - localised boiling. IMHO severely exacerbated by any reduction in coolant quantity or pressure reduction in regards to the water boiling point !..
I am quite interested in the possible addition of surfactants as a possible aid - along with a far better quality reservoir and higher pressure cap. Interesting
Joe....
 
Joe_H said:
Hi TMHM, neither of the above describe Cavitation if that is what you are trying to imply ? they imply that localised boiling occurs - but the term cavitation is incorrectly used.
As in -
"
Boiling and cylinder head cavitation

pitting_around_waterway.JPG

Pitting caused by localised boiling on a car that was driven exclusively on the road. The head had to come off for other reasons and this damage was spotted incidentally.
One potential cause of head gasket failure and an important cause of cavitation in an alloy cylinder head, is coolant boiling. Because the K-series, like any other current series production engine, uses a mechanical water pump to force the coolant around the engine and out through the radiator and back, the coolant is most prone to boiling after the ignition has been switched off; heat continues to dissipate from the still hot combustion chambers, but now has nowhere to escape other than into the now stagnant coolant. What can then happen in a very hot engine is the coolant may actually boil in certain hotspots around the head, despite the high pressure of the coolant system and the 'antifreeze' additives that raise the boiling point of the water comfortably above 100C. When this happens, steam becomes trapped in small pockets, and can corrode or soften the aluminium head and fatigue the head gasket."

The above is a classic example of a complete and utter lack of understanding of 'cavitation' - that is localised heating and absolutely nothing to do with the fore mentioned 'cavitation' - using incorrect terms is quite common when trying to sell 'after-market goodies;:rolleyes:
This is getting pointless really ;) - I agree with localised heating but I completely disagree with the use of the term cavitation, it is simply incorrect. There are many technical publications on fluid dynamics that you could look at.
Yes, there is an apparent issue with localised hot spots - but there are on many engines.
I think if you want to further the discussion on this specific issue then it would be better to start a new SPECIFIC thread about incorrect use of techncial terms.
Joe
Click to expand...
You may be correct as to the correct use of the term cavitation - fluid dynamics is not my forte. I merely use it as it was the term used about 10 years ago when several companies were conducting research into why freelanders seemed to suffer hgf very badly.
Right or wrong terminology - the investigations showed the the K series suffered from several hot spots caused by poor design.
 
The Mad Hat Man said:
You may be correct as to the correct use of the term cavitation - fluid dynamics is not my forte. I merely use it as it was the term used about 10 years ago when several companies were conducting research into why freelanders seemed to suffer hgf very badly.
Right or wrong terminology - the investigations showed the the K series suffered from several hot spots caused by poor design.
Click to expand...
Fully agreed, the trouble with the empty net is too many terms used incorrectly. No worries though.
Joe
 
Joe_H said:
Hello Nodge,
Interesting stuff. ! I am not sure what you mean by "The liner is technically a flat ring so adding another ring wouldn't work there"
It is the flat ring that the 'o ring' - usually copper - is added to by machining a small groove in the top of the liner surface. The copper is then mostly in the machined ring in the liner - but - partially above the liner machined groove. It is this area of the copper that is compressed.
Apologies if I am misunderstanding mate. This was something we used to do years ago - over 40 years ago in fact lol - but still is certainly current. The compression of the head during torque down compresses the copper 'or ring' to add a huge increase in sealing. - we used to use then for highly pressurised blown units.
I fully agree with you re the head movement as probably the greatest cause of the issue - a lot of the toyotas - especially yank spec - had a huge issue with head movement that actually caused the inner rear head bolts to shear - obviously with quite catastrophic failure ! yikes !!!!. :(.
The dowels will absolutely certainly help - but seem to only 'help' and not cure - whatever were they thinking about with plastic ones - ..... ????..
We may be at cross purposes 'cos I often use old school terms lol (as you know) - :)
But re - o ringing - I mean something like - (poor example but the theory is the same - machine a grove in the top of the liner and add copper or even a soft stainless like 316l etc -
motorswap5.jpg


The above is not a good image - but gives you an idea of what I mean. Hard work mate with old school tech haha :)
I do agree full with all you other comments !>
Joe
Click to expand...
I used rings (Wills Rings IIRC) when I did some experimentation into turbo charging the 4 pot 1500 cc Triumph engines years ago. The Triumph HG would fail between pots 2 and 3 and rings did solve the issue. However at the time, turbo charging was an expensive and not entirely reliable way to get HP from the small Triumph unit. The engine made the power ok, but the bottom end failed in a big way. I stuck with conventional tuning techniques after that.

Joe_H said:
Fully and utterly agreed Nodge - I only stand my corner as it simply is NOT 'cavitation' a completely different animal whose terminology is so misquoted it has become folklore - it is exactly as you say. - localised boiling. IMHO severely exacerbated by any reduction in coolant quantity or pressure reduction in regards to the water boiling point !..
I am quite interested in the possible addition of surfactants as a possible aid - along with a far better quality reservoir and higher pressure cap. Interesting
Joe....
Click to expand...

The K series suffers from area's of stagnant coolant within the head and around the liner tops. Some of this is caused by very poor cleaning of the casting flash. HTR cleaned huge amounts of this flash from the head. It's amazing just how much flow is lost, in such a key area. This is basically down to poor design of the original casting and subsequent cleaning, post casting.
If all these areas are addressed, then the K series has a better chance of lasting for a more reasonable length of time.
 
Nodge68 said:
I used rings (Wills Rings IIRC) when I did some experimentation into turbo charging the 4 pot 1500 cc Triumph engines years ago. The Triumph HG would fail between pots 2 and 3 and rings did solve the issue. However at the time, turbo charging was an expensive and not entirely reliable way to get HP from the small Triumph unit. The engine made the power ok, but the bottom end failed in a big way. I stuck with conventional tuning techniques after that.



The K series suffers from area's of stagnant coolant within the head and around the liner tops. Some of this is caused by very poor cleaning of the casting flash. HTR cleaned huge amounts of this flash from the head. It's amazing just how much flow is lost, in such a key area. This is basically down to poor design of the original casting and subsequent cleaning, post casting.
If all these areas are addressed, then the K series has a better chance of lasting for a more reasonable length of time.
Click to expand...
Using ringing methods on the K would certainly be good idea. This is certainly not limited to old designs and would probably work well. Also, often flashing etc in castings actually IMPROVE cooling efficiency Nodge, depending of course where they are ..............
Turbulence in water flow is often beneficial . not always of course - but most times. Often a 'spin effect' is a huge bonus... take a bottle of water and pour it out - it goes glug glug glug.... now shake and at the same time rotate the bottle - ie - shake in a circle - now the water flows out incredibly quickly. finger over end then let go .
smooth is not best (as you know from flow testing ( I know that was Aero dynamic as opposed to Hydo - but similar principals apply - just a thicker 'sauce' (Source' lol)- ! - often turbulence is extremely beneficial.) - but, yet again, another aside to seriously consider. - spin inducers in piping can help//////
I think a concerted 'ringing' attempt on a K unit (have not seen it in practice but would be easy to do) would be mostly extremely productive. - ! - also - possibly adding some surfactant and definite turbulence inducing items into the circuit would eliminate most stagnant linear flow issues in parts of the cooling system. Make the water turbulent !.

Just pondering ............................... :)

Joe
 
Joe_H said:
Using ringing methods on the K would certainly be good idea. This is certainly not limited to old designs and would probably work well. Also, often flashing etc in castings actually IMPROVE cooling efficiency Nodge, depending of course where they are ..............
Turbulence in water flow is often beneficial . not always of course - but most times. Often a 'spin effect' is a huge bonus... take a bottle of water and pour it out - it goes glug glug glug.... now shake and at the same time rotate the bottle - ie - shake in a circle - now the water flows out incredibly quickly. finger over end then let go .
smooth is not best (as you know from flow testing ( I know that was Aero dynamic as opposed to Hydo - but similar principals apply - just a thicker 'sauce' (Source' lol)- ! - often turbulence is extremely beneficial.) - but, yet again, another aside to seriously consider. - spin inducers in piping can help//////
I think a concerted 'ringing' attempt on a K unit (have not seen it in practice but would be easy to do) would be mostly extremely productive. - ! - also - possibly adding some surfactant and definite turbulence inducing items into the circuit would eliminate most stagnant linear flow issues in parts of the cooling system. Make the water turbulent !.

Just pondering ............................... :)

Joe
Click to expand...
Whist casting flash can improve heat transfer to the coolant due to increased surface area. Having the coolant ways partially or almost completely blocked by flash won't increase cooling.
Here's an example of the VVC head with its bad coolant ways highlighted.
Screenshot_20160801-133851.png
 
Removed spare-wheel carrier and used the contents to compost the garden!
 

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Nodge68 said:
Whist casting flash can improve heat transfer to the coolant due to increased surface area. Having the coolant ways partially or almost completely blocked by flash won't increase cooling.
Here's an example of the VVC head with its bad coolant ways highlighted.
View attachment 104775
Click to expand...
Wow Nodge, (Missed that one) that is SERIOUSLY bad quality control ! - frightening !.
Joe
 
I replaced Freelander's Front Anti Roll Bar bushes today with some nice Flow Flex Poly Bushes I got off ebay for £16.

What a difference and it only took half an hour, just drove truck onto some ramp, threw a 10mm socket at them and hey presto !

Gone are the nasty clunks when turning a corner with potholes.

The old bushes were shot, cheapo junk that the previous owner fitted about 3 years ago, the bar was so loose I could move it up and down about half an inch, new bushes don't move at all.

How nice to do a job that didn't go wrong and fixed a fault, I wish all the jobs were so easy.

Karl.
 
Karl.
Got any pics? This is something that I might consider doing.


Rocky Ward said:
I replaced Freelander's Front Anti Roll Bar bushes today with some nice Flow Flex Poly Bushes I got off ebay for £16.

What a difference and it only took half an hour, just drove truck onto some ramp, threw a 10mm socket at them and hey presto !

Gone are the nasty clunks when turning a corner with potholes.

The old bushes were shot, cheapo junk that the previous owner fitted about 3 years ago, the bar was so loose I could move it up and down about half an inch, new bushes don't move at all.

How nice to do a job that didn't go wrong and fixed a fault, I wish all the jobs were so easy.
Click to expand...
 
I replaced the anti roll bar bushes on my last petrol Freelander and it turned into a right mare of a job. The bolts were totally seized on one side and I ended up dropping the subframe to get it out. :confused:
 
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