Want new vehicle is true (real) 4 wheel drive (4WD)?

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K

Kdogg

Guest
I'm in the market for an SUV/Pickup truck. I'm curious on what new
vehicles are really 4WD? When I mean real 4WD, I mean a vehicle that
can send power equally to all 4 wheels, but also pass power to the
non-spinning wheel. Here's why I ask...

I use to own a 2000 Jeep Wrangler (4 cyl. base model). I thought it
was the ultimate 4WD system. Right after I bought it, I used the 4WD
High, and I noticed the dash indicator stating only 'Part-Time 4WD'. I
was ticked off. Here I've always wanted a Jeep to find out it sells
part-time 4wd drivetrains. I got stuck in a ditch once. Opposite
corners were spinning and the remaining 2 wheels just sat there.

I only ask this because I read a lot "specs" on 4wd vehicles and they
sort of hide if they really can split the power. I assuming the Jeep
Rubicon can do what I want as well as Hummer and some Land Rovers.

What is the feature called that I'm looking for? Locking
differentials? What vehicles have 4wd drivetrain like a "rock
crawler"?

P.S. I had a 2door Geo Tracker back in high school. That thing never
got stuck.

 
Your in experiance in 4x4 is really showing part time means you cannot leave
it in 4x4 for normal dry pavement operation.

If you had slightly applied the break you would have come right out of the
ditch.

The only way to get true 4x4 in any vehicle is to install front and rear
lockers.

HarryS

"Kdogg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm in the market for an SUV/Pickup truck. I'm curious on what new
> vehicles are really 4WD? When I mean real 4WD, I mean a vehicle that
> can send power equally to all 4 wheels, but also pass power to the
> non-spinning wheel. Here's why I ask...
>
> I use to own a 2000 Jeep Wrangler (4 cyl. base model). I thought it
> was the ultimate 4WD system. Right after I bought it, I used the 4WD
> High, and I noticed the dash indicator stating only 'Part-Time 4WD'. I
> was ticked off. Here I've always wanted a Jeep to find out it sells
> part-time 4wd drivetrains. I got stuck in a ditch once. Opposite
> corners were spinning and the remaining 2 wheels just sat there.
>
> I only ask this because I read a lot "specs" on 4wd vehicles and they
> sort of hide if they really can split the power. I assuming the Jeep
> Rubicon can do what I want as well as Hummer and some Land Rovers.
>
> What is the feature called that I'm looking for? Locking
> differentials? What vehicles have 4wd drivetrain like a "rock
> crawler"?
>
> P.S. I had a 2door Geo Tracker back in high school. That thing never
> got stuck.
>


 
Harry is right on the money, Rovers have a lock that will give you a
front and rear trac, but only on the side of least resistance. However,
the comparison of the Rovers to H2s or Rubicons is ludicrous. They
arent even in the same catagory. My recommendation would be to at look
at the Rovers, if you think a Rubicon or a H2 can do what the
Discoveries and the Range Rovers can, you are mistaken. Im not going to
argue it with anyone, but take one for a drive, into deep snow or mud,
or if its a dealer take one on the test track and you will see why Land
Rover can ask for 50k for discos and 70 for range rovers.

 
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:18:40 UTC "Kdogg" <[email protected]> wrote:

Part TIme = not for use on surfaces with good traction. 4WD = both
axles driven. Since the part time 4WD has no provision for slippage
(like a differential), they are not for use where at least one wheel
cannot slip to relieve off balance stresses in the two axles. Once
you get to the axle, the behavior is determined by the differential -
same as the drive axle problem with 2WD. Trust me, for snow and
"normal" circumstances you don't really want what you appear to think
4WD means (power goes to any one wheel with traction). I had that to
some degree years ago in an old Scout with limit slip diferentials on
both axles. One good snow storm convinced me that it was inherently
dangerous and the front ls came out real quick. Locking/limited slip
differentials on both axles has it's place and is useful in specific
situations but on ice/snow - or even Texas clay mud - fully locked is
a tricky proposition. It also tends to be hard on the running gear -
any one axle shaft has to be able to handle the full torque of the
engine.

There are tricks to help the situation you describe - applying the
parking brake, tapping the brake pedal, etc. Some are covered in the
owner's manual.

> I'm in the market for an SUV/Pickup truck. I'm curious on what new
> vehicles are really 4WD? When I mean real 4WD, I mean a vehicle that
> can send power equally to all 4 wheels, but also pass power to the
> non-spinning wheel. Here's why I ask...
>
> I use to own a 2000 Jeep Wrangler (4 cyl. base model). I thought it
> was the ultimate 4WD system. Right after I bought it, I used the 4WD
> High, and I noticed the dash indicator stating only 'Part-Time 4WD'. I
> was ticked off. Here I've always wanted a Jeep to find out it sells
> part-time 4wd drivetrains. I got stuck in a ditch once. Opposite
> corners were spinning and the remaining 2 wheels just sat there.
>
> I only ask this because I read a lot "specs" on 4wd vehicles and they
> sort of hide if they really can split the power. I assuming the Jeep
> Rubicon can do what I want as well as Hummer and some Land Rovers.
>
> What is the feature called that I'm looking for? Locking
> differentials? What vehicles have 4wd drivetrain like a "rock
> crawler"?
>
> P.S. I had a 2door Geo Tracker back in high school. That thing never
> got stuck.
>


--
Will Honea
 
You probably have open differentials on both axles.
Get an LS rear and a manual locker for the front.


 

"Kdogg" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> ...and I noticed the dash indicator stating only 'Part-Time 4WD'. I
> was ticked off. Here I've always wanted a Jeep to find out it sells
> part-time 4wd drivetrains. I got stuck in a ditch once. Opposite
> corners were spinning and the remaining 2 wheels just sat there.
>
....
>
> What is the feature called that I'm looking for? Locking
> differentials? What vehicles have 4wd drivetrain like a "rock
> crawler"?

Everyone I know who goes rock crawling (and it isn't a lot of people) uses
part-time 4WD vehicles. Nothing wrong with part-time 4WD. However,
if you have open diff at both ends, like you apparently do, you gotta use
brakes when you're stuck with a front and a rear wheel in the air. The
open diff applies the same toque to both wheels. So if one offers no
resistance, they both get essentially zero torque which will not get you
moving. Add a little braking and things should work differently.


 
You need differential lockers to do what you want easily with their
handling downsides or you need to learn how to drive a 4x4 to do the
same manually.

'Part time' is the best 4x4 system because the front and rear axles are
locked so you at least have 2 wheels turning.

Power goes to all 4 wheels perfectly equally in the Jeep system.

If you use your e-brake like your owners manual says or the brake pedal
to load up the free spinning wheels, you can get the other sides
spinning.

I have a Jeep CJ7 with open differentials like your Wrangler had and I
can get all 4 wheels spinning on ice or snow.

If I am in the ditch with 2 wheels in the air, I am high centered and
nothing short of a winch is going to help there.....

The Rubicon has a sweet system with manual lockers.

Lockers are 'not' a real good thing to have if you drive on pavement in
the snow, they call them 'low side finders'.....

If I ever go for a locker it will have to be a part time manual system
because 6 month of my year is on snowy roads.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Kdogg wrote:
>
> I'm in the market for an SUV/Pickup truck. I'm curious on what new
> vehicles are really 4WD? When I mean real 4WD, I mean a vehicle that
> can send power equally to all 4 wheels, but also pass power to the
> non-spinning wheel. Here's why I ask...
>
> I use to own a 2000 Jeep Wrangler (4 cyl. base model). I thought it
> was the ultimate 4WD system. Right after I bought it, I used the 4WD
> High, and I noticed the dash indicator stating only 'Part-Time 4WD'. I
> was ticked off. Here I've always wanted a Jeep to find out it sells
> part-time 4wd drivetrains. I got stuck in a ditch once. Opposite
> corners were spinning and the remaining 2 wheels just sat there.
>
> I only ask this because I read a lot "specs" on 4wd vehicles and they
> sort of hide if they really can split the power. I assuming the Jeep
> Rubicon can do what I want as well as Hummer and some Land Rovers.
>
> What is the feature called that I'm looking for? Locking
> differentials? What vehicles have 4wd drivetrain like a "rock
> crawler"?
>
> P.S. I had a 2door Geo Tracker back in high school. That thing never
> got stuck.
 
I think it may have more to do with gadgets and leather than true offroad
capability

"Corey Shuman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Harry is right on the money, Rovers have a lock that will give you a
> front and rear trac, but only on the side of least resistance. However,
> the comparison of the Rovers to H2s or Rubicons is ludicrous. They
> arent even in the same catagory. My recommendation would be to at look
> at the Rovers, if you think a Rubicon or a H2 can do what the
> Discoveries and the Range Rovers can, you are mistaken. Im not going to
> argue it with anyone, but take one for a drive, into deep snow or mud,
> or if its a dealer take one on the test track and you will see why Land
> Rover can ask for 50k for discos and 70 for range rovers.
>


 
Concur about the leather and doodads, heated seats and the latest option on
the H2 and rover are the heated tail gates. It keeps Jeep owners hands warm
in the winter assisting them from getting un-stuck.
HarryS

"Marc Sebens" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I think it may have more to do with gadgets and leather than true offroad
>capability
>
> "Corey Shuman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Harry is right on the money, Rovers have a lock that will give you a
>> front and rear trac, but only on the side of least resistance. However,
>> the comparison of the Rovers to H2s or Rubicons is ludicrous. They
>> arent even in the same catagory. My recommendation would be to at look
>> at the Rovers, if you think a Rubicon or a H2 can do what the
>> Discoveries and the Range Rovers can, you are mistaken. Im not going to
>> argue it with anyone, but take one for a drive, into deep snow or mud,
>> or if its a dealer take one on the test track and you will see why Land
>> Rover can ask for 50k for discos and 70 for range rovers.
>>
>
>


 
The only stock vehicle is the Jeep Rubicon. It can lock front and rear
diff giving you what you want.

Toyota puts lockers in the rear diff as an extra .

Mercedes G wagons can lock all 3 diffs.

Other than that there is nothing I know about. Most trucks can be
retrofitted with lockers giving you what you want.

Part time 4WD has nothing to do with your problem its the open diffs
that is.


Matt

 
[email protected] wrote:

> The only stock vehicle is the Jeep Rubicon. It can lock front and rear
> diff giving you what you want.
>
> Toyota puts lockers in the rear diff as an extra .
>
> Mercedes G wagons can lock all 3 diffs.
>
> Other than that there is nothing I know about. Most trucks can be
> retrofitted with lockers giving you what you want.
>
> Part time 4WD has nothing to do with your problem its the open diffs
> that is.
>
>
> Matt
>
Wouldn't the Quadradrive work for this guy. I thought it has LSD's
front, rear and center.

--
Rob Munach, PE
Excel Engineering
PO Box 1264
Carrboro, NC 27510
 
Thanks fellas.

It's not that I don't completely understand 4WD, part-time 4WD, or my
Jeep. I just want more than 2 wheels with power if I ever get stuck.
I just noticed it's hard to find true specs on drivetrains. I think my
current car(Mitsu Lancer EVO) can do better than a non-Rubicon
Wrangler. My EVO has limited slip on center and rear diffs with an
open front. Oh well.

About comparing Hummers, Rubicon, and Land Rovers, I thought the
original Hummer have locking differentials (center, rear, and front).
>From what I've read, they're the ultimate (stock) off road machines.
So is the Rubicon. I thought the Land Rover Discos and Range Rovers
achieve this via fancy hydraulic/electronic tranny gadgetry. I read
the discontinued Land Rover Defender was a true offroad machine.

Thanks for the comments, though.

 

"Kdogg" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I think my
> current car(Mitsu Lancer EVO) can do better than a non-Rubicon
> Wrangler.

AWD and full time 4WD both beat part time 4WD on the road. The
LS diffs on your AWD car may not do what you want when one wheel
is in the air however.

> My EVO has limited slip on center and rear diffs with an
> open front. Oh well.

Sounds like time to trade for an STi ;)


 

Kdogg wrote:
> Thanks fellas.
>
> It's not that I don't completely understand 4WD, part-time 4WD, or my
> Jeep. I just want more than 2 wheels with power if I ever get stuck.
> I just noticed it's hard to find true specs on drivetrains. I think
my
> current car(Mitsu Lancer EVO) can do better than a non-Rubicon
> Wrangler. My EVO has limited slip on center and rear diffs with an
> open front. Oh well.

Your setup will be good on very slippery sorfaces like ice. On
anyhitng where you need more rigid locks than your slips it will not be
as good. Esp not with 3 diffs.

>
> About comparing Hummers, Rubicon, and Land Rovers, I thought the
> original Hummer have locking differentials (center, rear, and front).
Yes they do. They have lockable torsen diffs. Audi uses them in the
quattro as well.


> >From what I've read, they're the ultimate (stock) off road machines.

Depends on the terrain.

> So is the Rubicon. I thought the Land Rover Discos and Range Rovers
> achieve this via fancy hydraulic/electronic tranny gadgetry. I read
> the discontinued Land Rover Defender was a true offroad machine.

Any gadgetry tends to fail ... simple is the off road truck.


You need to find you what you want to do with your 4x4 ... for street
driving and the occaional snow and gravel you are set.

For harsh offroad you want more, like the jeeps you didnt like. You can
just add as many lockers to them and other real 4x4 as you like.

Matt

 
Just to clear up the Land Rover info there. The difflock in the Land
Rovers is not hydraulic/ electric wizardry. It consists of a center
locking diff, and a front and rear locking diff. . This locking diff
was not visible on most of the 99-03 DiscoII models, but there was a
manual override that allowed the locking. The O4 Disco has the manual
locking diffs again due to pop. demand. The Defender - which is not
discontinued-btw-- ) is nearly the same vehicle as the Discovery 1
(1994-99) the disco is just wrapped in leather. The Range Rover has had
the locking mechanism as well, its just a simple matter of changing the
shift selector over which tells the electronics to lock up the diffs.
The Hummer and the Audi are still open diffs and while you may get
equal traction out of the front and rear axle, it will still transfer
power to the wheel with the least resistance, which is what you need
the locker for.
As to AWD... as a final note... the Freelander has this, I dont
particulaly care for it, as noted above, all the wheels get equal power
dist. until you bind up one or two wheels, then again, all the power
goes to one wheel, the one with the least resistance.. or if you have a
fancy set up that "senses" the wheelspin and you get it off road where
you need to apply power to certain wheels, it will transfer power to
that one or two wheels, however 9 times out of 10 this will result in
your axle snapping as its not designed to support the full weight and
torque of your vehicle.

 
On 9 Feb 2005 15:27:47 -0800, "Corey Shuman" <[email protected]> wrote:

> The Defender - which is not
>discontinued-btw-- ) is nearly the same vehicle as the Discovery 1
>(1994-99) the disco is just wrapped in leather.

In the US the Defender has the engine and transmission as the Disco 1 but
that's all they share, and they are built in completely different factories -
the Disco being highly automated and the Defender mostly hand built. FWIW
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com/ - photo galleries
http://www.chocphoto.com/roff
 
Corey Shuman wrote:
>The Defender - which is not
> discontinued-btw-- ) is nearly the same vehicle as the Discovery 1
> (1994-99) the disco is just wrapped in leather.

O.K. I didn't know that. Can anyone toss me a link for a '05 Land
Rover Defender sold in the U.S.?

 
On 10 Feb 2005 05:31:22 -0800, "Kdogg" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Corey Shuman wrote:
>>The Defender - which is not
>> discontinued-btw-- ) is nearly the same vehicle as the Discovery 1
>> (1994-99) the disco is just wrapped in leather.
>
>O.K. I didn't know that. Can anyone toss me a link for a '05 Land
>Rover Defender sold in the U.S.?

You didn't know that because it isn't true. The last Defender model year sold
in the US was '97, and they were special NAS versions for North America (roll
cage, emission gadgets, etc). The newer ones don't meet US DOT standards even
with those modifications.
--
Charlie...
http://www.chocphoto.com/ - photo galleries
http://www.chocphoto.com/roff
 
The Defender 90(NAS) also shares the following with the Disco 1:
Steering column
Steering box
Alternator
Starter
Axles
Steering components
Gas Tank
Radiator
Brakes (rotors, calipers and pads)
Exhaust system (not resonator)
Engine management system (computer)
Drivelines
U-joints (non- roto flex)
and a stack of other things.... the frame is also shared with the D90.
It really is basically a disco, the main difference being that you can
pick up a D1 for under 10k and you cant touch a decent Defender for
under 25k.

 
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