VCUs - The sweet spot

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When I was calculating the equivalent OWUT on your Measure Your wheels thread, I loaded your data of time against weight from your YouTube vid into Excel. Graphed, it is a very consistent curve as in your above example. I then did a search to see if I could turn that data/curve into an equation. If I had an equation I could then calculate the OWUT weight from X number of VCU slips per minute. I failed to find a way of converting it into an equation - Google was not my friend. However, all you have to do is some simple comparisons on your data and it quite quickly becomes obvious that for every doubling in weight, the time taken reduces by 32%. That's why the curve flattens, ie from 4kg to 8kg it reduces by 32%, as does 8kg to 16kg and 16kg to 32kg.

If you put enough weight on the bar to achieve hump mode, the bar would definitely not stop - hump mode is activated by pressure due to temperature generated from shear, therefore if the bar stopped there would be no shear and the fluid would cool and the bar move again. Its possible any additional weight above this point might result in the same times (ie the curve becomes a straight line), or (more likely) the times then start to increase again and the curve starts going up.
I was thinking the speed of turn would push the vcu to activate. Whilst it does this it will momentarily switch from near locked to very high resistance when activated. Hence the bar would turn fast then suddenly slow down as it switched between the 2 states, in and out of activated. Bar length and weight would be quite big. I'm trying to find a method of measuring torque on me new test but peeps at work think it can't be done due to needing something in series to measure the torque which would effect the vcu's response as it would effect the input to the vcu.

Regarding something you said earlier... GKN must have looked at how vcu's degrade. They will have looked at their product to see that it operates over it's expected life cycle. It's just a case we don't have this info.

edit to make more clear what I wanted to say
 
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I would theorise that the VCU was never meant to completely lock, just carry on through that curve until it hits the point of eventually flatlining. I have a feeling that regardless of how much weight you put on it it would stabilise at about 6-7 seconds ish because at the end of the day you're still dealing with fluid between two plates. It would have to turn to concrete to get a full lock and it'll never get there, even when it's a non Newtonian fluid.

Go have a read of those docs. Sure, in viscous mode the resistance is the viscous fluid between close plates, but when the temp rises to create sufficient pressure inside the VCU this activates hump mode - in hump mode alternate plates do come into contact with each other (like a clutch) and the unit does essentially "completely lock". Have a look at the fig 8.1 in the visco_sae pdf - you can see where it locks up. That almost perfectly matches the graph MHM put up of a VCU on a dyno and also Hippo's graph - but Hippo hasn't put enough weight on a bar to reach hump mode - so its only the first part of it.

Hump mode is tuned by the amount of air left in the VCU - it alters how hot the fluid needs to get to build sufficient pressure to push the plates together.

We need to get @Alibro to replicate this graph with his completely rebuilt VCU using only silicone fluid - if the results come out similar I'd bet good money on there being no real witchcraft involved. Purely basic fluid dynamics...

But I agree with @Nodge68 in that this is a very touchy-feely kind of diagnosis - I don't think we'll ever nail it down to more than a 5kg:
30-45s all good
45-60s think about changing soon
60s+ daaaaaaanger zooooonee

There are just too many factors involved, as we saw in your other thread, VCU slip varies massively car to car even when people are being responsible with their tyres keeping them well inflated and of the same make and tread.

I agree, at the moment, the OWUT is the only test we have with data to determine if the VCU's characteristics have changed. I agree with your thoughts that +50% = worry, +100% change - but I/we have no actual evidence that this is the right response - maybe +50% = change (my project cars VCU is returning +200%!). I don't think anyone can tell. We also don't know what is happening further down that graph - ie in your degrading VCU, is hump mode activating much sooner or never at all.

It'd be good to dump 15 psi from a back tyre monitor front/back axle/prop speeds and drive the car in a straight line at increasing speeds and monitor if there is a sudden drop in the difference. Would be best to do it on a beach though as you are trying to inflict pain into your transmission! Could be one of the regular tests - OWUT checks viscous mode - dangerous beach driving tests hump mode.
 
I don't like to throw a spanner in the works, especially with all the testing that you have done Hippo. However I'm a little concerned that you might be looking for a figure that simply isn't there to find. I'll try to explain how I perceive the VCU functions. The fluid is a special fluid that hardens as it is agitated. This is call a non-Newtonian fluid. This fluid hardens locally between alternating plates inside the VCU. Now from the research I've done over the last few years, the VCU doesn't lock or "activate" in the same way as a clutch for instance. It works more like an auto gearbox torque converter. Essentially the more torque that is applied the less it slips so the output torque increase. This only happens up until the torque / slip equilibrium is reached. So in effect, a correctly working VCU will always allow an amount of slip, even if it's taking plenty of torque. It has to have some slip for the fluid to be agitated. If there is little agitation, drive transfer can't take place. It's these very properties that make the VCU so good at what it does. I believe that the fluid only has a limited life as a non-Newtonian fluid before it's properties start to degrade. As fluid degradation takes place, the fluid starts to thicken, transferring more torque than it was designed to do. So basically it's slip/ torque equilibrium shrinks causing increased torque transfer. This is where the Freelander's design foibles come into play. As we know, LR in there wisdom geared the front and back slightly differently. This forces the rear half of the VCU to over run, or drive the front half. As the VCU ages, it's less likely to allow for this gearing mismatch, so starts overloading the gears in the IRD and rear diff. Eventually something it the drive train goes bang due to the sustained added stress.
There appears to be only 2 reasonably reliable tests for the VCU, ideally used together for improved accuracy. The OWUT and VCU temperature measurement. The OWUT loads the VCU while monitoring the slip rate, this is a valid test as far as I can tell. Meanwhile measuring the temperature is also going to give an indication of the VCUs ability to slip. If it stays cold, no or at least little slippage is occurring and the drive train is taking a pounding. The VCU can't actually seize solid or the wheels would skip and something would break very quickly. Wheel skipping does happen when turning on a tight lock with a failed VCU.
I hope I've not ruined all your hard work but this is how I perceive the VCU function and how we can check it at home.
I could be completely wrong of course.
as i understand it too , lrs test for the rr vcy was a timed number of degrees at a given torque at a given temp,if it took longer to reach the number of degrees vcu was deemed unservicveable
 
I been away from this Fred for a few days and tried to catch up but if I missed shomfink please forgive me.
Anyway here's my tuppence worth.
I don't believe measuring the rotation difference between front and rear propshafts will tell us much. Until the moment the VCU locks up totally the wheels will continue rotate as most of us would notice the rear wheels being dragged along or scrubbing badly. As long as all the wheels are rotating the propshafts have no choice but to turn at the speed dictated by the gearing. On the day it does lock up completely your IRD and diff will fail anyway and it's too late.
This means temp of the VCU must be the best test. Why? Energy.
We all know the worse condition a VCU is in, the harder it is to turn. That means it takes more energy to turn it and that energy has to go somewhere so generates heat.
Or have I missed shomfink after all.

If I get a chance I will try adding more weight for the OWUT as there will probably be a weight were the time will stall and not improve due to the properties of the viscous fluid, however this might be higher than I am willing or able to go.
 
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Go have a read of those docs. Sure, in viscous mode the resistance is the viscous fluid between close plates, but when the temp rises to create sufficient pressure inside the VCU this activates hump mode - in hump mode alternate plates do come into contact with each other (like a clutch) and the unit does essentially "completely lock". Have a look at the fig 8.1 in the visco_sae pdf - you can see where it locks up...
How does that work physically? The alternate plates connect to each side of the vcu and there's gaps between them. They seem to naturally fall in line with roughly the same gap which I assume is down to the fluid pushing around them and everything averaging out in available space. But how do the plates push together? The content of the vcu includes plates, fluid and a certain amount of air (we assume there's air in there as it's said there's a certain fill level of fluid required). I can't see a mechanism or reason why the fluid would push the plates together? Is it the description is trying to say it locks up as if the plates/fluid were solid when it activates?
 
I been away from this Fred for a few days and tried to catch up but if I missed shomfink please forgive me.
Anyway here's my tuppence worth.
I don't believe measuring the rotation difference between front and rear propshafts will tell us much. Until the moment the VCU locks up totally the wheels will continue rotate as most of us would notice the rear wheels being dragged along or scrubbing badly. As long as all the wheels are rotating the propshafts have no choice but to turn at the speed dictated by the gearing. On the day it does lock up completely your IRD and diff will fail anyway and it's too late.
This means temp of the VCU must be the best test. Why? Energy.
We all know the worse condition a VCU is in, the harder it is to turn. That means it takes more energy to turn it and that energy has to go somewhere so generates heat.
Or have I missed shomfink after all.

If I get a chance I will try adding more weight for the OWUT as there will probably be a weight were the time will stall and not improve due to the properties of the viscous fluid, however this might be higher than I am willing or able to go.

Good stuff, but will the heat due to wind up be disipated through the VCU? If the bearings in the IRD/diff are wearing, there will be heat disipated there, and if the treads on the tyres is moving to compensate there will be heat there. So it may be that the VCU stays cold (as I think Nodge said) and other areas heat up.

If we are to work in 'known' fact - we know the bearings wear, so heat must be generated there - but is that (as Hippos said) taken away by the oil and cooler before we can measure it.

lol, never ending circles - I think we're going to have to rig up a Freelander with loads of these...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MLX90614E...770948?hash=item33ab5474c4:g:F2sAAOSwA4dWJNwO

Point them at the VCU, IRD/diff casing around the bearings & tyres - then see what happens. See what happens in known good conditions, with a 'bad VCU' and/or a tyre underinflated or something - compare results see what we get. Who's brave enough to stick a known bad VCU and under inflated tyre on a car with an IRD that ain't already broke!
 
I been away from this Fred for a few days and tried to catch up but if I missed shomfink please forgive me.
Anyway here's my tuppence worth.
I don't believe measuring the rotation difference between front and rear propshafts will tell us much. Until the moment the VCU locks up totally the wheels will continue rotate as most of us would notice the rear wheels being dragged along or scrubbing badly. As long as all the wheels are rotating the propshafts have no choice but to turn at the speed dictated by the gearing. On the day it does lock up completely your IRD and diff will fail anyway and it's too late.
This means temp of the VCU must be the best test. Why? Energy.
We all know the worse condition a VCU is in, the harder it is to turn. That means it takes more energy to turn it and that energy has to go somewhere so generates heat.
Or have I missed shomfink after all.

If I get a chance I will try adding more weight for the OWUT as there will probably be a weight were the time will stall and not improve due to the properties of the viscous fluid, however this might be higher than I am willing or able to go.
the stress created causes issues long before any heat was generated ,and the the heat would be the failed surfaces of bearings gear teeth etc
 
How does that work physically? The alternate plates connect to each side of the vcu and there's gaps between them. They seem to naturally fall in line with roughly the same gap which I assume is down to the fluid pushing around them and everything averaging out in available space. But how do the plates push together? The content of the vcu includes plates, fluid and a certain amount of air (we assume there's air in there as it's said there's a certain fill level of fluid required). I can't see a mechanism or reason why the fluid would push the plates together? Is it the description is trying to say it locks up as if the plates/fluid were solid when it activates?
lol, yeh, I think that's the wierdest science behind it all! It is fact though because the plates wear on alternate sides - ie the sides that touch. Why the pressure build up makes them do this I don't know - I can't recall if the doc says why.

Crazy stuff.

That doc describes that it is the amount (%age) of air in the unit that controls when it will go into hump mode - ie more air requires more expansion of the fluid, which requires more heat, which requires more shear. I presume also the size, number and distance apart of the plates would also affect this - but given a pre-existing VCU, you can tune it by the size of the air gap.
 
lol, yeh, I think that's the wierdest science behind it all! It is fact though because the plates wear on alternate sides - ie the sides that touch. Why the pressure build up makes them do this I don't know - I can't recall if the doc says why.

Crazy stuff.

That doc describes that it is the amount (%age) of air in the unit that controls when it will go into hump mode - ie more air requires more expansion of the fluid, which requires more heat, which requires more shear. I presume also the size, number and distance apart of the plates would also affect this - but given a pre-existing VCU, you can tune it by the size of the air gap.
So that would make me think the air inside limits the fluid expansion if the fluid expands as it heats, like normal fluids like water expands when heating.
 
We took measurements before of temps. Some eggsamples:
Ambient temp = 30
Checked the following after 30 mile drive mostly at 80mph:
IRD = 95
Diff = 75
VCU = 56
Original VCU on 80000 miles.
Went on a 140 mile trip today. Took loads of measurements at different intervals. These are the results of my trip. 2001 v6 with new Pirelli Scorpion STR 215R65/16 98H tyres. Short story is:
120 miles at 60mph + 20miles mixed speed of 30/40/50mph (some at beginning, middle and end of trip).
8 = ambient temp
10 = average road temp
22 = max rear tyre temp
23 = max front tyre temp
41 = max vcu temp (measured circumference side of vcu) (7.8 at start)
46 = max rear diff temp (measured underside outer case) (7.8 at start)
75 = max ird temp (measured ird filler plug)
All values in degrees. I got 28mpg.
2 miles at 35mph
2 miles at 60mph
diff temp 31 degrees (air temp 16 degrees)
2 miles at 35mph
13.5 miles at 60mph
diff temp 46 degrees (air temp 21 degrees)
 
but when the temp rises to create sufficient pressure inside the VCU this activates hump mode - in hump mode alternate plates do come into contact with each other (like a clutch) and the unit does essentially "completely lock". Have a look at the fig 8.1 in the visco_sae pdf - you can see where it locks up.

Interesting, the plates must have different sides and have a built in flex construction - IE recesses in one side to allow a pressure build up and flex the plate across or something.

dangerous beach driving tests hump mode.

Salty beach sand? It's already rusting enough ;.;
 
Reading that paper, one of the things that popped out I hadn't thought about - braking stability.

In theory with a fully working VCU it should be almost impossible to lock a single wheel up - if you have front and rear axles turning at the same speed, we'll take that as a constant.

This means that an axle differential must rotate at a constant speed under braking - because the other axle is forced to turn via traction if - if you see what I mean. (You cannot lock up both front wheels if the rear wheels are still turning, the VCU will not permit it unless you're moving very slowly.)

This means that you also cannot lock up a single wheel - as the diff is locked into a rotational speed. Locking a single wheel means that the wheel on the other side must double its speed. It cannot because of physics and traction...

This means that the Freelander could actually get away without ABS as the VCU is acting as an analogue ABS - which means the only reason it was implemented was for traction control (as you CAN spin one wheel away) or legal requirements.
 
Sorry but yer theory is wrong. ABS brake pulses wheels to assist directional stability which is it's first point of use, but does help brake sharper due to the on/oft repeating pulse as a secondary element when brake force applied changes from on to pulsing. All 4 wheels are braked when the foot brake is applied. Only skidding wheels are brake pulsed by the abs, on an if and when basis of it happening. ABS is quick to activate if within the correct speed range. This reaction is so quick the prop wouldn't have enough time to slow to increase the differing speed with the other prop.
 
I think your are right @Hippo but I wouldn't be so categorical in that statement. One thing MHM talks about is that if a front wheel loses traction, the VCU is turning the back wheels (ie the VCU has achieved hump mode) within 1/4 (or was it 1/8) of a wheel rotation - this is a small fraction of a second and there are not many ABS pickups in 1/4 of a wheel turn. As the VCU works of axle differences, the same will/may be true if a wheel locks - ie within 1/4 turn of another wheel it is back spinning before there have been enough ABS pulses for the ABS system to detect a lockup.

I think in fact though you are right because there is slack in drive train that may be taken up (ie allowing more ABS pulses) and VCUs works on axles not wheels - so the ABS would probably handle all (most?) wheel lockups. It may be though that the VCU would bring a locked then ABS pulsed wheel back up to speed more quickly than road grip alone and/or without impairing the handling of the car in that situation. Conversely it may be that the 2 systems working concurrently may confuse/impair to full benefit of either!

There was an interesting discussion a while back about a fella who has a house down in the Alps and spends a lot of time down there. He was asking advice on whether a Freelander would be a good choice to switch to from his Defender. One point that came up was on (sharp) turns where there may be ice on the road. When turning the rear wheels would want to turn more slowly, but the VCU would want to keep them turning at the same speed as the fronts - if the car's rear wheel came across low grip (ie icy) would this result in the rear wheels spinning and inducing oversteer?
 
the stress created causes issues long before any heat was generated ,and the the heat would be the failed surfaces of bearings gear teeth etc
Yes there will be heat generated in the bearings but the VCU is being forced to turn when it don't want to cause it is now stiff. This causes internal friction and must therefore cause heat to build up in the VCU itself. If you agitate any liquid it causes heat.
 
Interesting, the plates must have different sides and have a built in flex construction - IE recesses in one side to allow a pressure build up and flex the plate across or something.
There are holes and slots in the plates so as they rotate at different speeds they kinda chop through the fluid but they are flat otherwise.
5f7382b5-4669-48a0-b02a-f965ac21ee45_zpswwjxerk1.jpg
 
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Yes there will be heat generated in the bearings but the VCU is being forced to turn when it don't want to cause it is now stiff. This causes internal friction and must therefore cause heat to build up in the VCU itself. If you agitate any liquid it causes heat.
oil does get hot in gear boxes diffs etc the faster the hotter, the thicker the oil the hotter, i wouldnt expect a bearing in good fettle to show much difference apart from the heat generated by the oil, unless its failing
 
Interesting, the plates must have different sides and have a built in flex construction - IE recesses in one side to allow a pressure build up and flex the plate across or something.

Although the GKN doc makes it look like the plates touch to achieve hump mode, I've just read over quite a bit of that SAE doc again and it looks like the plates do not actually need to touch to ramp up the torque. The plates only need to come within 0.1mm distance apart for this to happen.

Salty beach sand? It's already rusting enough ;.;

:)

I love taking the car down the beach - I'm prepared to pay money on the fuel it costs to get there, and any other possible additional costs as well :)

There are holes and slots in the plates so as they rotate at different speeds they kinda chop through the fluid but they are flat otherwise.

Are you sure they are perfectly flat? It apears the distances that make a difference are less than 0.1mm - is the colouring on the plates in your pic shaping that was manufactured in?

Once again GKN's doc shows the plates touching in hump mode - but only at the edges of the "inner plates" (I presume these are the ones driven from the central shaft). It states that these inner plates are "axially movable" so presumably they can shift position on the shaft to move closer to the "outer plates" (presumably those driven by the casing) that it describes as "axially fixed".

Interesting stuff!
 
the stress created causes issues long before any heat was generated ,and the the heat would be the failed surfaces of bearings gear teeth etc

That is incorrect. Extra heat would be created before bearing/teeth wear/failure. It is the heat that softens the metal in the bearings that then creates the wear.

It may be the stress (overload) that prevents a film of oil coming between the surfaces - but it is not that which creates the wear - it is the heat that that then creates which will be the catalyst for most wear.

oil does get hot in gear boxes diffs etc the faster the hotter, the thicker the oil the hotter, i wouldnt expect a bearing in good fettle to show much difference apart from the heat generated by the oil, unless its failing

The oil will (should!) keep a gap between the metal components of gears & bearings - so yes, it is not metal on metal generating heat in a gearbox. But as I say, the heat will be generated before failure will occur.
 
That is incorrect. Extra heat would be created before bearing/teeth wear/failure. It is the heat that softens the metal in the bearings that then creates the wear.

It may be the stress (overload) that prevents a film of oil coming between the surfaces - but it is not that which creates the wear - it is the heat that that then creates which will be the catalyst for most wear.



The oil will (should!) keep a gap between the metal components of gears & bearings - so yes, it is not metal on metal generating heat in a gearbox. But as I say, the heat will be generated before failure will occur.
yes immediately before failure in the case of bearings
 
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