V6 Heart Transplant

speak to wayne & DD. re coolant

Rave has the diagrams but not sure if they're early ones. Rave first came out when the v6 and td4 was introduced in the FL1.

From an earlier post I wrote: The stat starts to open at 82 degrees and int fully open until 102 degrees. On mine my hawkeye ses the fans come on at 109 degrees and go off at 106 degrees. Rave says on at 105 and off at 102.

Hippo said:

Rave has the diagrams but not sure if they're early ones. Rave first came out when the v6 and td4 was introduced in the FL1.

From an earlier post I wrote: The stat starts to open at 82 degrees and int fully open until 102 degrees. On mine my hawkeye ses the fans come on at 109 degrees and go off at 106 degrees. Rave says on at 105 and off at 102.

Click to expand...

Really? So the readings I got for the fans to come on were much like that!! 109° is to hot imho!! Something like 95° on 92° off would be much more sensible. I wonder why the Freelander is allowed to run at such a high temp? I'm sure the other KV6 powered cars run at lower engine temps. This might go some way to explain why the Freelander KV6 suffers from HGF so often? Sadly I don't have an early UK copy of Rave for the Freelander. I have the Rover car version which covers most things I'd need to know except this!!

Intermotor do cooling fan thermostats/switches to suit different temperature ranges. Bear in mind though that the switches are not precision pieces of kit and they are unlikely to be dead accurate. Can't see any reason why a lower rated switch would do any harm...when hgf is an issue due to possible overheating problems, surely a slightly lower operating temperature is a good option.

Nodge68 said:

Really? So the readings I got for the fans to come on were much like that!! 109° is to hot imho!! Something like 95° on 92° off would be much more sensible. I wonder why the Freelander is allowed to run at such a high temp? I'm sure the other KV6 powered cars run at lower engine temps. This might go some way to explain why the Freelander KV6 suffers from HGF so often? Sadly I don't have an early UK copy of Rave for the Freelander. I have the Rover car version which covers most things I'd need to know except this!!

Click to expand...

The rave disk ses:

Siemens 2000 - v6
The ECT sensor, for engine cooling. With the engine running, the fans come on at maximum speed if the coolant temperature increases to 105 °C (221 °F). The fans go off when the coolant temperature decreases to 102 °C (216 °F).
When the temperature of the coolant bypassing the thermostat is below 82 °C (180 °F), the thermostat remains closed and prevents coolant from circulating through the radiator. When the temperature of the bypassing coolant reaches 82 °C (180 °F), the thermostat begins to open, allowing 'cold' coolant from the radiator bottom hose into the pump inlet and hot coolant from the cylinder block to flow to the radiator through the top hose. The thermostat then regulates the flow through the radiator to maintain the engine at the optimum temperature. Maximum opening of the thermostat, and therefore maximum flow through the radiator, occurs if the coolant temperature reaches 102 °C (216 °F).

MEMS3 – 1.8 petrol
Cooling Fan Operation - Vehicles Without A/C:
The ECM will energise the cooling fan relay in the E-box at a coolant temperature of 102°C (215°F) and will go off when the coolant temperature decreases to less than 96°C (204°F).

EDC DD4 – td4
As the temperature increases, at 88 °C (190 °F) the thermostat begins to open, bleeding cool fluid from the radiator bottom hose through the pump and into the cylinder block. This allows hot coolant to flow from the cylinder block to the radiator through the top hose, balancing the flow of hot and cold fluid to maintain the optimum operating temperature. When the thermostat opens fully, the full flow of coolant passes through the radiator.

What bit does yer need to know from the rave disk?

Irishrover said:

Intermotor do cooling fan thermostats/switches to suit different temperature ranges. Bear in mind though that the switches are not precision pieces of kit and they are unlikely to be dead accurate. Can't see any reason why a lower rated switch would do any harm...when hgf is an issue due to possible overheating problems, surely a slightly lower operating temperature is a good option.

Click to expand...

Davis Graig do a nice range of easy to plumb fan switchs in various temperature ranges. I've never had a problem with one yet so I may well go down that route?

Hippo said:

The rave disk ses:

Siemens 2000 - v6
The ECT sensor, for engine cooling. With the engine running, the fans come on at maximum speed if the coolant temperature increases to 105 °C (221 °F). The fans go off when the coolant temperature decreases to 102 °C (216 °F).
When the temperature of the coolant bypassing the thermostat is below 82 °C (180 °F), the thermostat remains closed and prevents coolant from circulating through the radiator. When the temperature of the bypassing coolant reaches 82 °C (180 °F), the thermostat begins to open, allowing 'cold' coolant from the radiator bottom hose into the pump inlet and hot coolant from the cylinder block to flow to the radiator through the top hose. The thermostat then regulates the flow through the radiator to maintain the engine at the optimum temperature. Maximum opening of the thermostat, and therefore maximum flow through the radiator, occurs if the coolant temperature reaches 102 °C (216 °F).

MEMS3 – 1.8 petrol
Cooling Fan Operation - Vehicles Without A/C:
The ECM will energise the cooling fan relay in the E-box at a coolant temperature of 102°C (215°F) and will go off when the coolant temperature decreases to less than 96°C (204°F).

EDC DD4 – td4
As the temperature increases, at 88 °C (190 °F) the thermostat begins to open, bleeding cool fluid from the radiator bottom hose through the pump and into the cylinder block. This allows hot coolant to flow from the cylinder block to the radiator through the top hose, balancing the flow of hot and cold fluid to maintain the optimum operating temperature. When the thermostat opens fully, the full flow of coolant passes through the radiator.

What bit does yer need to know from the rave disk?

Click to expand...

Thanks for that Hippo
I could do with the fan controller colour codes and what does what although I'v worked out the 4 large wires, it's the 2 small PWM wires I need info on.
Cheers

Code / Colour
B Black
G Green
K Pink
LG Light green
N Brown
O Orange
P Purple
R Red
S Slate (Grey)
U Blue
W White
Y Yellow

It doesn't have the C0701 connector pic. Wll put the circuit up in a min.

COOLING FAN – K SERIES AND KV6
DESCRIPTION
K Series
K Series engined vehicles are fitted with a single cooling fan, which is mounted on the rear
face of the radiator. Operation of the single speed cooling fan is controlled by the Engine
Control Module (ECM) via the cooling fan relay.
NOTE: Vehicles fitted with Air Conditioning (A/C) are fitted with a second cooling fan, and a
cooling fan ECU. For more information, refer to the 'Air Conditioning (A/C) – K Series and
KV6' section of this manual.
+AIR CONDITIONING (A/C) – K SERIES AND KV6.
The cooling fan will also operate after the ignition has been switched off to control rising
engine bay temperatures after the engine has stopped running.
KV6
KV6 engined vehicles are fitted with two cooling fans, which are mounted on the rear face
of the radiator. The variable speed cooling fans are controlled by the cooling fan ECU, which
receives a fan speed request from the Engine Control Module (ECM) in the form of a Pulse
Width Modulated (PWM) signal. The ECM receives the following inputs to enable it to
determine the cooling fan speed:
An Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) signal from the ECT sensor.
A CAN BUS message via the instrument pack informing it of engine speed and load
(vehicles fitted with air conditioning only).
For more information on the CAN BUS, refer to the Communication Data Buses section
of the Workshop manual. For more information on Air Conditioning (A/C), refer to the Air
Conditioning (A/C) – K Series and KV6 section of this manual.
+AIR CONDITIONING (A/C) – K SERIES AND KV6.
Depending on the messages it receives regarding engine condition, the cooling fan ECU will
provide a voltage of between approximately 1 V and battery voltage to the cooling fan
motors. The cooling fans will also operate after the ignition has been switched off to control
rising engine bay temperatures after the engine has stopped running.
NOTE: If the cooling fan ECU suspects an error in any of the signals it receives, it will power
the cooling fans at maximum speed.

OPERATION
K Series (Vehicles with A/C)
General
Feed from the positive battery terminal (C0192) is supplied to the main relay and fusible link
5 of the engine compartment fuse box (C0632) on an R wire. Fusible 5 (C0573) provides a
constant battery feed to the cooling fan ECU (C0701) on an NW wire.
Operation of the main relay (C0576) is controlled by the Engine Control Module (ECM)
(C0913) on a WK wire. When energised, the main relay provides a feed to fuse 4, which is
also located in the engine compartment fuse box. Fuse 4 (C0575) is connected to the
cooling fan ECU (C0701) by an NK then UY wire. The cooling fan ECU (C0701) is earthed
on a B wire.
For more information on main relay operation, refer to the Engine Management Systems
– MEMS section of the Workshop manual.
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor
The ECM (C0914) provides a feed to the ECT sensor (C0169) on a KG wire. As the coolant
temperature rises, the resistance of the sensor falls. By measuring the voltage returned from
the ECT sensor (C0169) on a KB wire, the ECM (C0194) can determine engine coolant
temperature.
Engine Control Module (ECM)
The ECM (C0913) transmits a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) signal to the cooling fan ECU
(C0701) on a UR then NK wire. The frequency of the pulses provided by the ECM reflect the
temperature readings the ECM receives from the ECT sensor.
NOTE: The ECM also receives information from the instrument pack via the CAN BUS. For
more information, refer to the 'Communication Databuses' section of the Workshop manual,
and the 'Air Conditioning (A/C) – K Series and KV6' section of this manual.
+AIR CONDITIONING (A/C) – K SERIES AND KV6.
Cooling Fan ECU
The cooling fan ECU converts the PWM signal it receives from the ECM into a voltage. This
voltage will vary from between approximately 1 V and battery voltage, allowing the cooling
fans to be driven at a number of different speeds. The cooling fan ECU (C0701) provides a
feed to the cooling fan motor (C0005) and the condenser fan motor (C0280) on a pair of SU
wires. The motors are provided an earth path via the cooling fan ECU (C0701) on a pair of
PS wires.
NOTE: If the cooling fan ECU receives a continuous voltage or no voltage from the ECM, it
assumes a fault has occurred and powers the cooling and condenser fan motors at full
speed.

K Series (Vehicles without A/C)
General
Feed from the positive battery terminal (C0192) is supplied to the main relay and fusible link
5 of the engine compartment fuse box (C0632) on an R wire. Fusible 5 (C0573) provides a
constant battery feed to the cooling fan relay (C0019) on an SU wire.
Operation of the main relay (C0576) is controlled by the Engine Control Module (ECM)
(C0913) on a WK wire. When energised, the main relay provides a feed to fuse 4, which is
also located in the engine compartment fuse box. For more information on main relay
operation, refer to the Engine Management Systems – MEMS section of the Workshop
manual.
Cooling Fan Relay
Fuse 4 of the engine compartment fuse box (C0575) provides a feed to the cooling fan relay
coil (C0019) on an NK wire. The earth path for the relay coil (C0019) is controlled by the
ECM (C0913) on a UR wire. The ECM determines if engine cooling is needed by using
information sent by the Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor.
When energised, the cooling fan relay (C0019) provides a feed to the cooling fan motor
(C0005) on an NR wire. Current flows across the motor (C0005) to earth on a B wire.
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor
The ECM (C0914) provides a feed to the ECT sensor (C0169) on a KG wire. As the coolant
temperature rises, the resistance of the sensor falls. By measuring the voltage returned from
the ECT sensor (C0169) on a KB wire, the ECM (C0194) can determine engine coolant
temperature.

KV6
General
Feed from the positive battery terminal (C0192) is supplied to the main relay and fusible link
5 of the engine compartment fuse box (C0632) on an R wire. Fusible 5 (C0573) provides a
constant battery feed to the cooling fan ECU (C0701) on an NW wire.
Operation of the main relay (C0576) is controlled by the Engine Control Module (ECM)
(C0371) on a WK wire. When energised, the main relay provides a feed to fuse 4, which is
also located in the engine compartment fuse box. Fuse 4 (C0575) is connected to the
cooling fan ECU (C0701) by an NK then UY wire. The ECU (C0701) is earthed on a B wire.
For more information on main relay operation, refer to the Engine Management Systems
– Siemens section of the Workshop manual.
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor
The ECM (C0371) provides a feed to the ECT sensor (C0169) on a KG wire. As the coolant
temperature rises, the resistance of the sensor falls. By measuring the voltage returned from
the ECT sensor (C0169) on a KB wire, the ECM (C0371) can determine engine coolant
temperature.
ECM
The ECM (C0371) transmits a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) signal to the cooling fan ECU
(C0701) on a UR then NK wire. The frequency of the pulses provided by the ECM reflect the
temperature readings the ECM receives from the ECT sensor.
NOTE: The ECM also receives information from the instrument pack via the CAN BUS. For
more information, refer to the 'Communication Data Buses' section of the Workshop manual,
and the 'Air Conditioning (A/C) – K Series and KV6' section of this manual.
+AIR CONDITIONING (A/C) – K SERIES AND KV6.
Cooling Fan ECU
The cooling fan ECU converts the PWM signal it receives from the ECM into a voltage. This
voltage will vary from between approximately 1 V and battery voltage, allowing the cooling
fans to be driven at a number of different speeds. The cooling fan ECU (C0701) provides a
feed to the cooling fan motor (C0005) and the condenser fan motor (C0280) on a pair of SU
wires. The motors are provided an earth path via the cooling fan ECU (C0701) on a pair of
PS wires.
NOTE: If the cooling fan ECU receives a continuous voltage or no voltage from the ECM, it
assumes a fault has occurred and powers the cooling and condenser fan motors at full
speed.

Ere go. Right click and select "save pic as..." to save to yer pc so yer gets the full size version.


ravecoolingfan A9giBSN

Hippo said:

Ere go. Right click and select "save pic as..." to save to yer pc so yer gets the full size version.

Click to expand...

Thanks Hippo very helpful, it makes perfect sense now

Following the temp question with interest...

Found this on the Rover 75 site, which may be of interest re: 'normal' KV6 operating temps.

Will my KV6 develop into an overheat problem ? - The 75 and ZT Owners Club Forums

The thermostats seem problematic. Any way to fit another unit in?

Nodge- check this out! A metal housing with a replaceable thermo- 80 c., and a replaceable part- pick your preferred opening temp.

Thermostats in Kaiser Housing - Page 2 - The 75 and ZT Owners Club Forums

scottmartin49 said:

Following the temp question with interest...

Found this on the Rover 75 site, which may be of interest re: 'normal' KV6 operating temps.

Will my KV6 develop into an overheat problem ? - The 75 and ZT Owners Club Forums

The thermostats seem problematic. Any way to fit another unit in?

Click to expand...

You can get good and bad stats but i do feel 102 C Fully open is to hot for good reliability. 92 C Fully open would safer.
I know a couple of people with the Kaiser Stat, both have struggled to get an off the shelf stat insert for them which is why i'v not gone down that route yet. They are well made though.

Here is one being fittet to a Rover 75
www.mredd.me.uk/Photos/rover75/thermo/thermo.htm

This thermostat housings are poorly designed as well, being only held in place with an O ring and one bolt. - they are known for shearing around the O ring lip.
the most interesting thing in that article was the following......

"By the way, Kaiser, do you still supply metal stat housing for v6 ?"
"Yes. I do."
"Write me at willdo(at)icon.co.za."

Metal housing is deffo an improvement

unless, of course, you believe that LR Engineers are.........

mick the builder said:

highly paid and highly trained engineers!!!

Click to expand...

May be a moot point, as I seem to have found some disagreement over whether they can be used on Freelanders. Would you gentlemen know whether MG/Rover 'stats can be interchanged with ours?

Thanks, Scott

BTW- my Hawkeye reads roughly the same temps as what you're seeing on both of our V6's. All within spec, and too hot for my taste also. I've setup an "Ultragauge" set to 'alarm' at 110c. on the one my daughter drives.

scottmartin49 said:

May be a moot point, as I seem to have found some disagreement over whether they can be used on Freelanders. Would you gentlemen know whether MG/Rover 'stats can be interchanged with ours?

Thanks, Scott

BTW- my Hawkeye reads roughly the same temps as what you're seeing on both of our V6's. All within spec, and too hot for my taste also. I've setup an "Ultragauge" set to 'alarm' at 110c. on the one my daughter drives.

Click to expand...

There were 2 types of factory stats available, both plastic and the same temperature. The Freelander stat had push fit quick release hose type fittings with spring locked connectors swaged into the hoses. The rover stat simply used spring hose clips to hold the hose directly onto the stat. The standard Rover stat is the only one generally available now. It works the same but sadly allows the engine to run to very hot. This is compounded by the fact the cooling fan comes in at such a high (106°C) temperature!!
Good for emissions but no good for power or engine life

These are the 2 types of factory stat fitted to the KV6.



They are both made of plastic and both fit the block in the same way (badly!!)
The LR differs in the way the hoses fit, using a push on fitting with mating connectors fitted to the hoses.
The heater hose connection is also higher up then the Rover stat!!

The Rover stat simply takes the hoses pushed on and secured with clips.

Thanks for that! Thought I'd recalled that Hawkeye allows for ECU recalibration- fan maybe? I'll check and get back to you.

Scott

Well I had some good news from my Mot tester today (needed it after the latest stat leak). The V6 passed the Mot with flying colours I knew the car was going to pass but until now I didn't know how the engine and it's emissions would fair. The emission test was nothing to worry about and showed the engine to be in good working order with an HC result of just 26ppm not bad for an engine that I got cheap as an unknown other than the car it came from had 60K on it's clock. So there is'nt much more to report for now but I'll see how long this engine lasts? I'm looking forward to using the old girl again.

Well done..........