Trail(er) trash

inajeep did pass the time by typing:
> Don't bait the troll.

ITYM

--
/ramjw\__
.:\:\:/:/.
( ~ ~ ):
.-------------------.\ = o /
| PLEASE DO NOT |( (_) )
| FEED THE TROLLS |/`-----'\_
`-------------------' / \(O)
| | / /|_____|/U
| | \_/ / \ \
| | ( ( ) )
| | _\,,\ /,,/_
,|/./\/|.\| ,|/./.(_____V_____)/

R. Lander wrote:
> This is for people who claim there's plenty of wilderness left for Jeep
> tracks. They have no broad perspective on land use. Trees alone are not
> indicative of wilderness. Many national forests are sterile places,
> ecologically.
>
> http://www.mongabay.com/images/media/footprint.jpg
>
> That map shows how much land has been worked over by people in one way
> or another. Only northern Canada and Alaska still contain large,
> unbroken tracts of pristine land. The rest is mostly agriculture,
> grazing, tree-farms, cities and roads. It takes millions of acres to
> support people at a high standard of living. When someone says we only
> use 2% or 3% of the land, they're ignoring everything else needed to
> sustain dense cities.
>
> Those dark-green patches in the lower-48 contain trees that have never
> been cut, or roadless areas. Notice how small they are relative to
> industrialized or tamed parcels (lighter green, orange and red). It's
> an insult to demand more roads in those last pristine fragments. We
> need fewer people wanting a piece of the action, which means more birth
> control everywhere. That's the real solution if one has any respect for
> the land.
>
> Here's a "footprint" map of the entire world. Notice how densely packed
> Europe is. That same blight is creeping across America and it doesn't
> need help from the off-road lobby.
>
> http://www.mongabay.com/images/external/2005/2005-11-30_wcs.jpg
>
> R. Lander
>


Pretty pictures you've got there but pretty much useless without the
legend of what the colors actually mean.

Looking at you pretty coloring book would have us believe that almost
the entire eastern US is literally covered in people. Your world map is
no different. What do the color graduations signify?

Let's take India for example, you CAN pick it out without resorting to a
world atlas can't you? Based on colors alone one might believe that
India is absolutely covered in humanity, and population numbers might
lead you to think the same thing. After all, their population is right
on a par with China at around 2 billion souls, give or take a few
hundred million. The thing is, I've BEEN to India and I've seen a fair
portion of it, and while the cities themselves can be absolutely
crawling with people, the biggest hunk of the country is pretty much
free of significant numbers of them.

The US is approximately 3.5 million square miles with a population of
approximately 75 million people which works out to about 78 people per
square mile. A fair number of those are actually concentrated in the
major cities so that makes their density greater, but the density of the
rest of the country less. I'm betting a fairly substantial portion of
the city folk never get any closer to nature than the zoo and local
water park, so their impact on the environment is minimal, not counting
the emissions from their mini-vans.

Their indirect impact based on resources used in their behalf and
what-not might be a bit harder to judge, but unless you're willing to be
the first in line to be euthanized to minimize the impact to poor mother
earth I'd suggest you shut up about population issues.

There are about 4 million miles of roads in the US. For the sake of
argument lets say 1 mile of road for every square mile of real estate in
the country. If you laid them all end to end and side by side...well,
you should get the picture. A road isn't all that wide compared to a
mile of real estate is it? I'd guess the real estate is about, ohhh,
5,200 feet and change wider. IOW the overall impact of a road, on the
land, is pretty negligible.

And besides which, what is your point? Do you seriously think there is
anything, short of total global sterilization, that man can do to this
planet that is going to make any kind of lasting impact? Man, and
whatever impact we might have is going to be less than blip on the radar
that is the life cycle of this planet.

>
> The US is approximately 3.5 million square miles with a population of
> approximately 75 million people which works out to about 78 people per


I guess that would be 275 million.

"Lon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Earle Horton proclaimed:
>
> > "Lon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>C. E. White proclaimed:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>Believe what you will, it happens all the time. Usually I only see the
> >>>results (tracks cut in paths and fields), but occasionally one of the
> >>>geniuses gets stuck. I've found trucks buried up to the axles, laying
> >>>on the sides in the ditches, sitting across ditches, or just not
> >>>running.
> >>>I've tried asking the Sheriff for help - what a joke!
> >>
> >>Name of Sheriff, name of community?
> >>
> >>I'm not calling you a liar, but trespass is trespass.
> >
> >
> > Lon,
> >
> > I am not a lawyer, but there is a difference between civil trespass and
> > criminal trespass. There are statutory guidelines and case law
> > particular to every jurisdiction, but in most cases the difference
> > involves "prosecutorial discretion", i.e. whether the police want
> > to get involved or not. If the complainant is perceived as a nut
> > job by the local authorities, there is no personal injury, and property
> > damage is minimal, then it this most likely going to be a civil matter.
>
> Most farming communities I've been around consider the simple act of
> leaving a rut in a crop field more than just trespass. There may be
> somewhere that local laws don't protect farmers from damage....
>
>
There is no agricultural zoned land in San Juan County, CO. That could be
the place you are thinking about. We have a private landowner, who objects
to skiers from an adjacent ski area, leased from the BLM, skiing across his
land. I just heard, that the county commissioners are initiating
condemnation proceedings against him. Recall the recent Supreme Court
decision, that made it legal, for local governments to step in, where
private landowners "interfere" with economic development. This isn't quite
the same as what Mr. White is complaining about, but it does reflect the
same appalling lack of respect for the private property owner.

There are lots of orphaned farms in this country too, places where there is
one farm left, in a place that has gone suburban. Juries wouldn't know, or
care, that a rut in a crop field constitutes damage. In Fort Collins they
fined a farmer for harvesting alfalfa after dark, because it disturbed the
sleep of those, who had recently moved into an adjacent subdivision. There
are some jurisdictions too, where they don't like the smell of pig manure.
Lots of the "salt of the earth" around here are moving to Nebraska. It
seems that residents of wealthy Front Range communities don't really know,
which side their bread is buttered on, or where bread and butter come from.
We do have "right to farm" communities in this state, where that sort of
thing is frowned upon.

Civil or criminal? Depends on the jurisdiction. I would be consulting a
local lawyer, to see if there is any way to impound one of those vehicles
legally. Act quickly, have the truck in a tow service yard with pit bulls
sleeping in it, with a huge bill for towing and damages to the field too,
and you might scare off some of these "geniuses".

Earle



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

I've spent far more hours (days...weeks) in the back country with boots
on my feet and a pack on my back than I have in a Jeep and I appreciate
as much as anyone the peace and beauty of being out there and away from
civilization. It can be absolutely wonderful to be in a beautiful place
far from anywhere and hear no sounds except for the sounds of nature.

There are also few things as much fun as charging down a rough trail in
a Jeep, yes a part of it is knowing what your machinery can do, another
part of it is knowing what you are capable of making it do. The best
4wd vehicle in the world is useless if the driver doesn't know how to
drive it.

Yep, there are yahoo's out there in their 4weds who are pigs, but it's a
minority, but also the most disgusting thing I've seen out there is
little piles of human droppings and toilet paper behind the Icewater
Spring Shelter in the Great Smokey Mountain National Park, and the
nearest road is miles away.

Jeff DeWitt

R. Lander wrote:
> billy ray wrote:
>
>
>>Personally I find this story a bit far fetched.
>>
>>Not about an occasional yabbo driving through 'your fields' but that the
>>same people do it week after week after week and you do nothing about it
>>other than politely ask them to leave.
>
>
> Maybe because those types will vandalize your property if you threaten
> their "right" to do whatever the hell they want. The off-road
> subculture is full of degenerates and egomaniacs, in my experience. I
> don't mean anyone who owns a 4WD vehicle, I mean the people who are
> into it for no practical reason other than proving what the machinery
> can do. They are a shallow group of folks who spend a lot of money on
> stuff that really doesn't matter.
>
> I can walk a granite sluice faster than a Jeep can crawl it, so what's
> the point? On foot, you can get plenty of wilderness time without
> traveling 30 miles, hauling in loads of garbage and polluting the air
> with fumes and noise.
>
> R. Lander
>

Earle Horton proclaimed:


>
> There is no agricultural zoned land in San Juan County, CO. That could be
> the place you are thinking about. We have a private landowner, who objects
> to skiers from an adjacent ski area, leased from the BLM, skiing across his
> land. I just heard, that the county commissioners are initiating
> condemnation proceedings against him. Recall the recent Supreme Court
> decision, that made it legal, for local governments to step in, where
> private landowners "interfere" with economic development. This isn't quite
> the same as what Mr. White is complaining about, but it does reflect the
> same appalling lack of respect for the private property owner.


Eminent domain has been around a long time. What waxes and wanes
periodically is the willingness to use it or extend the privilege to
areas that arguably were not in the original intent.

As for needing to be zoned agricultural, that appears a bit quaint since
I've had a neighbor get assistance for someone simply wandering thru
private property in a rather large city and destroying plants.


>
> Civil or criminal? Depends on the jurisdiction.

Ayup.

> I would be consulting a
> local lawyer, to see if there is any way to impound one of those vehicles
> legally. Act quickly, have the truck in a tow service yard with pit bulls
> sleeping in it, with a huge bill for towing and damages to the field too,
> and you might scare off some of these "geniuses".

I believe you may have misspelled 'sociopathic delinquents" the
existence of one or two apparently enough to engender the rabid postings
of the original poster on this thread. I can just picture him, looking
much like the Denver Broncos coach, foaming at the mouth at the mere
sight of a vehicle able to make it over the speed bumps in a shopping
mall.

Lon,

The comment on agricultural zoning was only meant to show, that there is no
agricultural land here. The county's economy is based on tourism, ever
since the mines closed. There are a few salty old "miners", that drive
around in Sunnyside Gold Corporation Suburban, who apparently supervise
cleanup operations. I suspect that they, like everything else, are part of
the tourist show. A guy came walking down the sidewalk in front of my house
a couple of weeks ago, and asked me whether my house and those of my
neighbors were "real". ;^)

Here those "sociopathic delinquents" you are talking about will drive across
private land, and then claim it is a "historic mining road". The county is
trying to find out where the real roads are, but it is pretty hard given the
scarcity of reliable records. There is a notice up at the post office,
asking long time residents to bring in old photos, hand-drawn maps, diaries
or anything that might demonstrate the historical existence of any road.
Sometimes the county appears to help the "sociopathic delinquents" along, by
putting up county road signs on favorite Jeep trails. There is little
respect for the process of eminent domain. A friend who owns a patented
mining claim, states that the county recently moved one of these "roads" so
that it now crosses his property, with no notice to anyone.

The county seems to be more interested in protecting the public from
property owners, than the reverse. If someone drives a Jeep or Hummer
across your property, it's not a big deal. But God forbid you erect a
seasonal cabin, without all the necessary land use applications, building
permits, etc.

Earle

"Lon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Earle Horton proclaimed:
>
>
> >
> > There is no agricultural zoned land in San Juan County, CO. That could
be
> > the place you are thinking about. We have a private landowner, who
objects
> > to skiers from an adjacent ski area, leased from the BLM, skiing across
his
> > land. I just heard, that the county commissioners are initiating
> > condemnation proceedings against him. Recall the recent Supreme Court
> > decision, that made it legal, for local governments to step in, where
> > private landowners "interfere" with economic development. This isn't
quite
> > the same as what Mr. White is complaining about, but it does reflect the
> > same appalling lack of respect for the private property owner.
>
>
> Eminent domain has been around a long time. What waxes and wanes
> periodically is the willingness to use it or extend the privilege to
> areas that arguably were not in the original intent.
>
> As for needing to be zoned agricultural, that appears a bit quaint since
> I've had a neighbor get assistance for someone simply wandering thru
> private property in a rather large city and destroying plants.
>
>
> >
> > Civil or criminal? Depends on the jurisdiction.
>
> Ayup.
>
> > I would be consulting a
> > local lawyer, to see if there is any way to impound one of those
vehicles
> > legally. Act quickly, have the truck in a tow service yard with pit
bulls
> > sleeping in it, with a huge bill for towing and damages to the field
too,
> > and you might scare off some of these "geniuses".
>
> I believe you may have misspelled 'sociopathic delinquents" the
> existence of one or two apparently enough to engender the rabid postings
> of the original poster on this thread. I can just picture him, looking
> much like the Denver Broncos coach, foaming at the mouth at the mere
> sight of a vehicle able to make it over the speed bumps in a shopping
> mall.
>




--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"billy ray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Did you speak to the Sheriff or a deputy?
>
> If your county Sheriff refuses to perform his duty what else have you
done?
> Have you spoken to the County Commissioners, or your local newspaper,
radio,
> and TV stations?

What local TV station? Heck even the local radio stations aren't local. They
play canned content from god knows where (including Rush Limbaug). I know
two County Commisioners personally. They are very symathetic.

> Elected officials are loathe to see themselves on the news being accused
of
> malfeasance.
>
> Have you contacted the state police?

Get real. A few years ago I had an apartment broken into. The guys stole the
TV, a VCR, ate all my cereal and frozen pizzas, took a bunch of blank
checks, etc. I called the local police. A nice offer came, listened to my
story, said it look like they forced the door, and gave me a police report
(for my insurance company). A few days later I got a call from a check
cashing place that asked about a check a guy was trying to cash (one of the
stolen checks). I told him they were stolen. The guy gave me the name of the
person trying to cash the check. I immediately called the police and gave
them the information. With this solid lead, the case should have been
solved -right? Bull****, the police did nothing. They aren't interested in
petty theft. I took my insurance money, and made sure all the blank checks
were stopped by the bank. Life goes on.

> Why not just bypass the Sherriff and go directly to the County Attorney
and
> file charges. The prosecutor will issue the necessary warrants and the
> Sherriff will have to answer to him if he refuses to serve them.

Warrrants for who? Usually all I have are tracks in the field or trash on
the ground. In the past when I've found a vehicle abandoned in the path
(stuck, broken, whatever), I have called it in. I even had an office come
look at one once. They told me to to call back if it wasn't moved in a
couple of days (it was moved).

> There is just too much in your story that defies common sense. I do not
> know any farmer that ignores his crops for weeks or months at a time...
and
> never heard of it either...

Well you don't know much. I am small time farmer (less than 400 acres) and
work a full time job. During the growing season I do the usual checks for
insect damage and weeds. However, between early September and the time my
Soybeans actually get harveted, there is nothing to check. I don't own my
own combine, I hire that out. So I don't have any neeed to check the
soybeans between say Spetember 15 and early November. The combine operator
was the one that allerted me to the damage. During the winter there is no
reason to check the fields and I try to stay off the paths since I don't
want to cut them up myself.

> I've seen where people just dump trash rather than dispose of it properly,
> that is a relatively small number of people that should be considered
white
> (or yellow, or red, or brown, or black) trash not Jeepers....

Good for the Jeepers.

> I have a problem with smokers who dump ashtrays on the ground or just
flick
> their butts out the window as they drive through the park where I live.
>
> The guy stealing your firewood was probably one of your neighbors as they
> would be the ones to see it or hear it being cut.

No, he was a stranger with out-of-state plates (Virginia).

> The county road grader is probably required to clear road hazards and I
find
> it hard to believe that he ran his grader up into your woods to bury a
> dishwasher...if anything he would just push it off the road or perhaps he
> thought he was doing you a favor by burying it (with a grader!)

I did not say he buried it. He just pushed it across the road ditch on to my
property. I agree it need to be moved out of the road, but the state has
crews with turcks that are capable of picking it up. Pushing it on to
someone's property is bush league. My Father confronted the operator, and I
guess he thinks like you. He just said he needed to get it out of his way
and it wasn't his problem.

> If you have a logging road you should, at least, have it posted as private
> property and there is a great difference between installing a gate and
just
> hanging a chain or cable between trees at a height intended to snare
> trespassers.

So I have to post everything as "Private Property." And do you honestly
think these people think it was Public Property? Do you think the sign is
going to make any difference?

> There would be no reason for a hunter to disconnect your electric fence,
> even it retrieve a dog assuming it is properly and legally installed.
More
> likely it is some eco-weenie or PETA terrorist wannabe who thinks they are
> saving wildlife from being tortured..

Are you dreaming this stuff up?

> Perhaps you should invite a local 4x4 club onto your property. All the
> clubs I an aware of take excellent care of any area that they are allowed
to
> use.

Not going to happen. I don't care how careful they are, they will damage the
land. Have you ever noticed the difference in how crops grow where an old
path used to run and the rest of the field? Compaction of soil is a big
problem.

> Are you being singled out or do all your neighbors have the same problems?

The trash is a major problem in the area. And yes, other farmers in the area
have 4X4 drivers use their property without permission. The more isolated
the field, the bigger the problem. It is rare for anyone to mis-behave on
the property immeadiately surrounding our home. However, my more isolated
land is routinely abused. Hunters and joy riders are the major problem in my
area.

Ed

Wow! Except for the presence of agricultural land, your county could be the
same as mine. A friend had her storage unit broken into, reported it to the
sheriff's office, and they told her, "It must have been one of your kids".
End of investigation. Case closed.

Yes, in most jurisdictions you would have to post "Private Property" all
around your land, if you didn't want it to be "abused" by trespassers. By
the absence of such signs, you may actually be giving them permission to use
it, and could be liable if they are injured! And you do have to be present
and take a more active role, if you want anything done. Note that "being
present" need not require your physical presence. Someone you hire, to
watch after your affairs in the county, will probably satisfy this
definition.

This is what happens when you try to bypass the sheriff and go to the County
Attorney (District Attorney in my county).

"Dear Mr. Horton,

"The District Attorney's Offices [sic] has received your letter and the
attached correspondence dated 04/06/06 and have spoken with the San Juan
Sheriff's Department in regards to this case upon receipt of your earlier
correspondence.

"Our agency would defer to the San Juan County Sheriff's Department in their
determination if this case needs to be investigated...

"The District Attorney's Office does not have the resources to circumvent
the County Sheriff in the investigation of this case, nor do we feel that
under these circumstances it would be appropriate to do so."

Even though the fellow I had complained about had committed an actual
statutory criminal offense, it wasn't bank robbery or murder, and no one was
interested in doing anything. A few years ago in the next county, the
sheriff and various family members were accused of selling methamphetamine.
That case was treated a little differently. When I was younger I contracted
to pick a field of corn by machine. It was very late in the season, and the
farmer had procrastinated, or been overwhelmed by unexpected demands on his
time. When I got there, half the corn was gone, picked by hand by some of
the farmer's neighbors! Everyone knew who had done it, and a police report
was filed, but no one did anything. I suppose that the farmer could have
sued, to recover the value of the corn, but the expense and time would have
made this essentially futile.

If you post "Private Property" signs, to conform with the legal requirements
of your state, then you will have a legal leg to stand on, to recover
compensation, for the damages that you say you have suffered. You will
still have to do most of the work yourself, and it is obvious from your
posts, that you don't want to do that. You want your local elected
officials, and by extension your other county tax payers, to do all your
work for you. A perfect example is the "vehicle abandoned in the path" that
you complained about. If you had followed proper procedure, you could have
had it towed, or it wouldn't have been parked there in the first place. You
are a typical absentee landowner, who wants people off his land, but who
isn't willing to pay for the privilege.

Maybe it's not fair, that 4x4 drivers compact your soil, and maybe it's not
fair, what you would have to pay to stop them, but that's the way it is.

Earle

"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:448434b1$1@kcnews01...
>
> "billy ray" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Did you speak to the Sheriff or a deputy?
> >
> > If your county Sheriff refuses to perform his duty what else have you
> done?
> > Have you spoken to the County Commissioners, or your local newspaper,
> radio,
> > and TV stations?
>
> What local TV station? Heck even the local radio stations aren't local.
They
> play canned content from god knows where (including Rush Limbaug). I know
> two County Commisioners personally. They are very symathetic.
>
> > Elected officials are loathe to see themselves on the news being accused
> of
> > malfeasance.
> >
> > Have you contacted the state police?
>
> Get real. A few years ago I had an apartment broken into. The guys stole
the
> TV, a VCR, ate all my cereal and frozen pizzas, took a bunch of blank
> checks, etc. I called the local police. A nice offer came, listened to my
> story, said it look like they forced the door, and gave me a police report
> (for my insurance company). A few days later I got a call from a check
> cashing place that asked about a check a guy was trying to cash (one of
the
> stolen checks). I told him they were stolen. The guy gave me the name of
the
> person trying to cash the check. I immediately called the police and gave
> them the information. With this solid lead, the case should have been
> solved -right? Bull****, the police did nothing. They aren't interested in
> petty theft. I took my insurance money, and made sure all the blank checks
> were stopped by the bank. Life goes on.
>
> > Why not just bypass the Sherriff and go directly to the County Attorney
> and
> > file charges. The prosecutor will issue the necessary warrants and the
> > Sherriff will have to answer to him if he refuses to serve them.
>
> Warrrants for who? Usually all I have are tracks in the field or trash on
> the ground. In the past when I've found a vehicle abandoned in the path
> (stuck, broken, whatever), I have called it in. I even had an office come
> look at one once. They told me to to call back if it wasn't moved in a
> couple of days (it was moved).
>
> > There is just too much in your story that defies common sense. I do not
> > know any farmer that ignores his crops for weeks or months at a time...
> and
> > never heard of it either...
>
> Well you don't know much. I am small time farmer (less than 400 acres) and
> work a full time job. During the growing season I do the usual checks for
> insect damage and weeds. However, between early September and the time my
> Soybeans actually get harveted, there is nothing to check. I don't own my
> own combine, I hire that out. So I don't have any neeed to check the
> soybeans between say Spetember 15 and early November. The combine operator
> was the one that allerted me to the damage. During the winter there is no
> reason to check the fields and I try to stay off the paths since I don't
> want to cut them up myself.
>
> > I've seen where people just dump trash rather than dispose of it
properly,
> > that is a relatively small number of people that should be considered
> white
> > (or yellow, or red, or brown, or black) trash not Jeepers....
>
> Good for the Jeepers.
>
> > I have a problem with smokers who dump ashtrays on the ground or just
> flick
> > their butts out the window as they drive through the park where I live.
> >
> > The guy stealing your firewood was probably one of your neighbors as
they
> > would be the ones to see it or hear it being cut.
>
> No, he was a stranger with out-of-state plates (Virginia).
>
> > The county road grader is probably required to clear road hazards and I
> find
> > it hard to believe that he ran his grader up into your woods to bury a
> > dishwasher...if anything he would just push it off the road or perhaps
he
> > thought he was doing you a favor by burying it (with a grader!)
>
> I did not say he buried it. He just pushed it across the road ditch on to
my
> property. I agree it need to be moved out of the road, but the state has
> crews with turcks that are capable of picking it up. Pushing it on to
> someone's property is bush league. My Father confronted the operator, and
I
> guess he thinks like you. He just said he needed to get it out of his way
> and it wasn't his problem.
>
> > If you have a logging road you should, at least, have it posted as
private
> > property and there is a great difference between installing a gate and
> just
> > hanging a chain or cable between trees at a height intended to snare
> > trespassers.
>
> So I have to post everything as "Private Property." And do you honestly
> think these people think it was Public Property? Do you think the sign is
> going to make any difference?
>
> > There would be no reason for a hunter to disconnect your electric fence,
> > even it retrieve a dog assuming it is properly and legally installed.
> More
> > likely it is some eco-weenie or PETA terrorist wannabe who thinks they
are
> > saving wildlife from being tortured..
>
> Are you dreaming this stuff up?
>
> > Perhaps you should invite a local 4x4 club onto your property. All the
> > clubs I an aware of take excellent care of any area that they are
allowed
> to
> > use.
>
> Not going to happen. I don't care how careful they are, they will damage
the
> land. Have you ever noticed the difference in how crops grow where an old
> path used to run and the rest of the field? Compaction of soil is a big
> problem.
>
> > Are you being singled out or do all your neighbors have the same
problems?
>
> The trash is a major problem in the area. And yes, other farmers in the
area
> have 4X4 drivers use their property without permission. The more isolated
> the field, the bigger the problem. It is rare for anyone to mis-behave on
> the property immeadiately surrounding our home. However, my more isolated
> land is routinely abused. Hunters and joy riders are the major problem in
my
> area.
>
> Ed
>
>

Jeff DeWitt wrote:
> dan wrote:
>
>> Jeff DeWitt wrote:
>>
>>> Ahh the left doesn't pander to greed so that's why they've created
>>> all these government handout programs?
>>
>>
>>
>> Exactly. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out
>> why. HINT: examine the targets of the left's vs. the right's largess.
>>
>>> Is that why they go into absolute hysterical hissy fits when anyone
>>> suggests doing anything to fix the Social Security debacle?
>>
>>
>>
>> Never seen this phenomenon. I DO notice that leftists do go into
>> hysterics whenever REPUBLICANS introduce legislation claiming it will
>> "fix" Social Security when the actual effect will be the destruction
>> of SS, while divvying up the existing spoils amongst Republican donors...
>
>
> You need to get out more <G>.
>
> There have been a number of plans to do something about SS, but the
> lefties always start bleating about how it's going to cut the benefits
> of the poor old people (and invariably whatever the plan is does no such
> thing, and doesn't effect current recipients at all). Fact of the
> matter is that SS is basically a Ponzi scheme and while it CAN'T be
> fixed, it can be turned into something that makes economic sense.

Plans based on thin-air numbers are rarely productive, and I have yet to
see a Republican plan based on anything but.

Of course, both Parties are guilty of changing the plan from what is was
to whatever it is now.

>>> While both sides do it the left has done an exceptionally good job of
>>> learning the lesson "He who robs Peter to pay Paul can be certain of
>>> the support of Paul".
>>
>>
>>
>> Funny, I thought that was the operating philosophy of the Republican
>> Party, with the proviso that Paul has more money than Peter to start
>> with...
>
>
> No, you have it backwards, that's the Democrat's philosophy, they always
> want to raise taxes on the "evil rich" to give more to the "poor" (in
> other words take money from one group to buy votes from the other.

Whoosh.

> Jeff DeWitt
>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>>> Jeff DeWitt
>>>
>>> R. Lander wrote:
>>>
>>>> billy ray wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You may have something there.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the liberals and Demoncrats could keep their pants zipped the
>>>>> population
>>>>> would drop severely and decent people might again populate the earth.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> People with low IQs on both fringes should go the www.vhemt.org route.
>>>> But the far-Right is worse than the far-Left because they get elected
>>>> more often. Why? Because most people are greedy and the Right is all
>>>> about pandering to greed. They created the Me Generation without really
>>>> acknowledging it. Having respect for nature is the antithesis of greed,
>>>> hence the strong correlation between Republican "values" and
>>>> anti-environmentalism.
>>>>
>>>> R. Lander
>>>>

It was on Mon, 05 Jun 2006 16:00:01 -0700, another Dirty Dusty Delta day,
when dan coughed up:

> Whoosh.


:^D



--
You can never understand one language until you understand at least two.

-Ronald Searle, artist (1920- )

face it most people care and the ones who dont make us all pay the price

It seems like you're saying that all of the land will eventually be
bulldozed, but until that happens, you want it 'preserved' for your personal
enjoyment.

"R. Lander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


> The truth is that overpopulation is carving up
> wilderness and off-roading just adds to the problem.

"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:447f1d17@kcnews01...
>I have a lot of dislike of people who like to go "four
>wheeling." I run a
> small farm. Lots of the wannbe four wheeling masters decide my
> fields are
> just perfect for trying out their vehicles. They cruise around
> in my field
> cutting tracks and distributing trash. I've even had then ride
> around in
> unharvested soybean fields. I have stopped and asked them to
> leave only to
> catch them again the next week. Now maybe thius only a small
> (very small)
> percentage of four wwheelers, but they sure make me dislike the
> category as
> a whole. Given that they have no regard for obviously private
> property, I
> can only imagine how they treat "our" land.
>
> Ed
==========================
Excuse me while I don't believe you. In fact, I'll even call it
a lie. I don't 4-wheel, but no farmer I know would be such a
pussy about people driving through their bean fields.(I also
don't know any farmers that spcifically say soybean field instead
of just bean field)
Hell, even if you 'accidentally' run off a road and damage crops
around here, you're going to pay for them.




>
>

Where the hell did you come from? It is SO easy to make so many
generalizations when, in fact, you really don't have a clue about which you
speak. Many of the folks here are the true environmentalists. Since you're
a professed environmentalist, what specifically have YOU done to help the
environment, other that come to a place like this and anonimously bitch
about what we do? The best generalization you come up with is "people who
bash environmentalism don't respect the environment that much." That is so
illogical it's stupid. Someone may like a certain musician's music, but not
the musician himself. Oh, and the made-up name "R. Lander" is just so
typical of someone so far on the fringe that you have put yourself in the
category of "Wacko" without anybody here having to fling that your way.



"R. Lander" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
> all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
> Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
> view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
> it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.
>
> People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
> sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
> Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
> to prove, but the number of offroad litterers is probably at least 25%.
> It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.
>
> It's very simple: people who bash environmentalism don't respect the
> environment that much. They talk of "extremism" but effective
> protection will always seem extreme to those who want land UNprotected.
> Environmental problems are people problems and more people create more
> impact. Population can't continue without stealing more land. That's
> the crux of all these conflicts. It's not about shadowy entities trying
> to block your rights, it's more people fighting over less acreage.
>
> In the lower 48 states, there's no real frontier left. We don't need
> more machines, noise and trail(er) trash invading the last wild, quiet
> places. Be happy with all the trails you've got. If you find those
> trails overcrowded, blame human overbreeding, not environmentalism.
>
> R. Lander
>

It was on Thu, 01 Jun 2006 08:28:17 -0700, another Dirty Dusty Delta day, when R. Lander coughed up:

> The "respect" for nature shown by offroad enthusiasts is documented by
> all the cans, bottles and wrappers they toss on scenic trails. The
> Rubicon near Lake Tahoe shows how these anthropocentric mouth-breathers
> view the land. They can't be bothered carrying a trash bag and packing
> it out. No room in the Jeep or some other excuse.
>
> People with a conquer-nature mentality have little respect for its
> sanctity. The show stealer is their fancy machinery, not the land.
> Nature is just another place to make noise and whoop it up. It's hard
> to prove, but the number of offroad litterers is probably at least 25%.
> It goes beyond a few rotten apples making the rest look bad.
>
> It's very simple: people who bash environmentalism don't respect the
> environment that much. They talk of "extremism" but effective
> protection will always seem extreme to those who want land UNprotected.
> Environmental problems are people problems and more people create more
> impact. Population can't continue without stealing more land. That's
> the crux of all these conflicts. It's not about shadowy entities trying
> to block your rights, it's more people fighting over less acreage.
>
> In the lower 48 states, there's no real frontier left. We don't need
> more machines, noise and trail(er) trash invading the last wild, quiet
> places. Be happy with all the trails you've got. If you find those
> trails overcrowded, blame human overbreeding, not environmentalism.
>
> R. Lander

Thanks for your excellent post; sadly, few here are going to accept it,
regardless, and will argue facts with attitude and opinion.

Please keep it up until the flames overcome you.

If just /one/ person learns from your factual statements, you've succeeded.


SW
resident persona non grata
```````````````````````````````````




--
There is nothing so agonizing to the fine skin of vanity as the application
of a rough truth.

-Edward Bulwer-Lytton, writer (1803-1873)

"C. E. White" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:447f1d17@kcnews01...
> I have a lot of dislike of people who like to go "four wheeling."

According to your statement, you "have a lot of dislike" for me, yet you've
never met me. You base this opinion on your experience with trespassers.

We are over populated. We have more more people working and living in
our areas now. Most of the population is female, our products refect
this, our advertising refects this. Females want to do "family" stuff.
Even our movies reflect
a female audience. We must stop reproducing now to save the enviroment.

Corey Shuman wrote:

> Hehehe, yeah, um okay, maybe you didnt check out my site on the first
> link but I do exploration and preservation as a full time job.

Old mines can be fun to visit but there are already plenty of them and
we don't need more trails and drivers. Mining has always been at odds
with wilderness and I'm glad it's tightly regulated now.

> And I do
> 90% of it by vehicle, maybe you can pack all of your gear into a
> backpack but when you are actually exploring there are a great many
> things that you need and its way too much to put in a backpack. Do I
> think it takes great skill to drive on a dirt trail?? More than you
> obviously have any idea, there is a high degree of skill involved in
> off road driving, granted many are just going by the seat of their
> pants and that lends to a lot of people in ditches and dead down in
> ravines.

Obviously there are situations where you have to drive stuff in. I've
done it and it doesn't take rocket science, just experience and
sometimes a lack of caution! But that's not the real point. You ignore
the population factor and treat a growing imbalance as a stable
situation. Everything's about catering to people instead of questioning
their birthrates and impact.

> The point here isnt your wilderness or nature, its that everyone in
> this country has the freedom to do as they please, some abuse and some
> dont.

Yet again, you ignore the numbers problem. There are 3 million more
people each year in America wanting more land all the time, and the
land supply is finite. Environmental problems are people problems. This
is not a static "rights" issue, it's a case of demand for land
outstripping supply. Laws are the main reason you enjoy relative
solitude in places that might be mined or logged otherwise. Your Jeeps
would be forced out by gates and semi trucks.

> But your concept of nature doesnt do anything for me. Sure its
> nice and peaceful, but to me, it doesnt hold a candle to coming into an
> old indian site, or a nearly untouched mining camp or mine.

Like all other defenders of perpetual intrusion, your angle is that
people are all that matters. I say enjoy the old camps but don't keep
trying to make new ones! No matter how much space there seems to be, it
all has boundary lines.

> I understand that you are on the Cali side of things and you
> really dont have much wild area to explore and document, but thats your
> own fault. Laws have gotten worse and worse, to where there is not a
> lot of freedom as to what we can do, maybe you would be happier in a
> militaristic society where there is a rule for everything and no one
> deviates, God knows we are heading that way, but for now, there are
> still some freedoms.

Wilderness shrinks because of population growth and California is the
most populous state in the nation. Those laws are the only reason
wilderness isn't completely worked over (at accessible elevations). You
seem to think people "create" wilderness by carving roads and driving
into it. I don't know where you got that ethic but it's not based on
biology. The land was here long before us and doesn't need our
validation.

> But like I said in the last post, your really not doing anything about
> what you concieve to be the problem, whining on the internet is about
> as effective as a taking a subaru into the woods.

Whatever I'm "not doing" is certainly more than you'll ever do to help
the land. Driving into wilderness and demanding more roads is the
opposite of conservation.

> Enjoy the day,
> Corey Shuman
> www.goldrushexpeditions.com

Some old mines are interesting but I like trees, streams and clean
vistas much better. Mining has done major damage and not just at the
mine sites. Hydraulic gold mining silted up rivers in California. Those
methods were finally banned but old mercury lingers in the water today.
The environmental movement started when people got sick of miners and
loggers who didn't care. There's nothing nostalgic about a modern
mining operation on a large scale. The depravity of endless expansion
is what I'm trying to convey here.

R. Lander

hummmm...finally at least a mention of the biggest cause most of the
problems in the world. "overbreeding". Adjustments here would
be a good beginning to all the problems....which would help
enviornmentalism as much as anything.