The Dreaded Head Gasket Issue Newbie

Sorry didn't take much notice of the part numbers with the price at the side "Doh"
Will price them up out here in Malta and if they are astronomical, which I am sure they will be, I will get my brother to get some from UK dealer.

trev wilson said:

Hi Everyone,
My first post and what a worry.
I've just bought a 2003 "03" 1.8 5dr Kalahari freelander 52000 miles and full service history. Collect it next week.
Now I am ****ting myself after reading hundreds of threads on various forums about the HG going.
A friend reckons the problem was on earlier modles, but I think this maybe duff info..It's mainly for the missus to drive but will be used on some 300 hundred mile trips..

I have read that the K series engine was the problem..

Now what will my car have fitted ?

Thanks from a very worried new future owner..

Click to expand...

Welcome to the club. Ive got the same year & model, nice innit. My gasket blew at 32000. The symptoms were.No hot air coming out the heater when engine was warmed up.Lumpy acceleration when moving off.Then one night the needle went to the red & that was that. Ive got a warranty with Warranty Direct but thay refused to pay for a new head gasket as it was a "pre existing fault" so if/when it goes again they will foot the bill. I also changed the expansion tank after I found small cracks under the yellow collar that fits around the neck. Check the water level level every week & look for "mayo" on the dipstick & under the oil cap

Tess

Tess

Hi everyone, thanks for all your replies. I feel a lot better having read through them.

I have taken a 12 month warranty with the dealer for £175 that will cover the HG.

I still think I'll purchase the modified HG and Thremo, just for peace of mind.

Can these modified items be purchased from a mian dealer or somewhere like Landranger garages ?

Once again thank you all very much...

trev wilson said:

I still think I'll purchase the modified HG and Thremo, just for peace of mind.

Can these modified items be purchased from a mian dealer or somewhere like Landranger garages ?

Click to expand...

MLS gasket can be purchased from most main and after market suppliers. One size fits all, even the 1.4 k-series and VVC engines. They are black with a shim layer.

There is a modified version of the original gasket, think Payen make them?? They just have an extra seal of the red elastomeric compound. Seems that performance cars are having them fitted because you lose a bit of compression (power) with the MLS gasket due to the extra shim.

If you buy the HG then you have to remove head, drain coolant, change timing belts as well. If it aint broke dont fix it..... You are best leaving well alone. Most of the cost of hg repair is labour unless you fix it yourself. Plenty of peeps on here who have done that including myself, so you'll not be left standing clueless.

You can fit the PRT without too much probs, make sure you bleed the coolant properly on refill

I've just (today) bought an '03 plate 1.8 3dr Serengeti myself and obviously did my homework beforehand. Prices right now are very low and allowed me to buy a class of vehicle (for my wife) that I would not otherwise have been able to.

AIUI being an '03 ('01 and later) your Freelander should already have the PRT stat. Mine certainly does. Stainless steel dowels too. AIUI the latest Landrover headgasket came out around the end of '05, so if your was done by LR last year it should have had this fitted.

FWIW mine had a complete new engine fitted by Landrover at 43K in March last year and then a new head (complete with new style gasket, new rad & heater matrix this time) in December at 53K. It's now on 57K. I do have a very good 2 year parts & labour warranty on it though just in case! Although it's probably only going to do 6,000 miles a year from now on and isn't going to be doing any towing or motorway work as we have something else more comfortable for that.

Have to say that it's refreshing reading some of the less dramatic comment about HGF and the sensible advice about checking coolant levels and temperatures.

milesr3

.....and now the time has come, to replace, my buggered gasket.....

Yep, I knew it was only a matter of time so getting ready to spend spend spend.... Just need a little advice. I'm from the days of working on Austin 1100's, Triumph 2000's and other old stuff. I've replaced many H/G in my time but this 'new stuff' is just that - new. I have a 2000 (early) 1.8 Xi and have looked at the RAVE CD for info on replacing. There are a few LR tools mentioned i.e. the tool that slips between the 2 camshaft gears to keep them stationary plus another to fit to the gears whilst undoing the camshaft nuts. It used to be a case of jamming a screwdriver through the gears to stop them from turning but is this possible on the Hippo? I haven't had the cam cover off yet so don't know the setup. Plus, how easy is it to get to the camshaft gears and timing belt bearing in mind how close to the inner wing it is? There is also a tool mentioned for keeping the liners in place, if I don't turn the crankshaft (I have no intention of doing so!), is this tool really needed?

What's the minimum that has to be taken off i.e. can it come off still attached to the exhaust manifold if I just disconnect it lower down. I wasn't gonna bother doing a decoke etc so don't need access to take the valves and cams off.

Any tips on what I should look out for i.e. and known 'hiccups' that I could encounter? Just trying to weigh up the cost in time of doing it myself or getting it into the local garage and get them to do it (ideas of price?).

Finally(!), if the head needs skimming, anybody know of a reliable firm down Hampshire way that does this and what kind of cost involved just for a head skim?

Thanks!

Jagman said:

.....and now the time has come, to replace, my buggered gasket.....

. There are a few LR tools mentioned i.e. the tool that slips between the 2 camshaft gears to keep them stationary plus another to fit to the gears whilst undoing the camshaft nuts. It used to be a case of jamming a screwdriver through the gears to stop them from turning but is this possible on the Hippo? I haven't had the cam cover off yet so don't know the setup. Plus, how easy is it to get to the camshaft gears and timing belt bearing in mind how close to the inner wing it is? There is also a tool mentioned for keeping the liners in place, if I don't turn the crankshaft (I have no intention of doing so!), is this tool really needed?

What's the minimum that has to be taken off i.e. can it come off still attached to the exhaust manifold if I just disconnect it lower down. I wasn't gonna bother doing a decoke etc so don't need access to take the valves and cams off.

Any tips on what I should look out for i.e. and known 'hiccups' that I could encounter? Just trying to weigh up the cost in time of doing it myself or getting it into the local garage and get them to do it (ideas of price?).

Finally(!), if the head needs skimming, anybody know of a reliable firm down Hampshire way that does this and what kind of cost involved just for a head skim?

Thanks!

Click to expand...

You'll be grand, more daunting than it actually is, work methodically, label everything and place it in trays or compartments.

The cam locking tools, pulley lever etc can all be fabricated.

I made the locking tool, only because I had to wait 2weeks for the supplier to stock it, they are only a few pounds.
Cam Sprocket spokes are 10mm so any piece of aluminium/steel 3mm strap can be bent into a U-shape with 10mm recess to snuggly fit into spokes.

The sprockets need some sort of lever to hold steady so as to remove/loosen nuts. A long piece of bar with strategically placed bolts that inter-lock the spokes will do the job.

Note the position of the sprocket lugs when removed, however when refitting cam carrier, one of them is rotated so as they both lean to one end of the engine. This facilitates cam carrier replacement. Of course head bolts can be removed without removing cam carrier, you just rotate each cam (WHEN BELT REMOVED) independently. A cam carrier should only be removed if there is an oil leak and dont use the LR sealing kit, too dear. Comma or other product will do the job, use 1part Acetone : 1part meths to remove and clean old sealant.

Reset the timing marks using a shaving mirror

Exhaust can be split at downpipe gasket, you will need to break inlet manifold gasket though. Tricky to get at bolts.

Crank nut was the hardest to undo, there is a Sealey fly wheel locking tool that slots into the starter motor bolt housing. Haynes suggests placing car in 5th gear then undoing nut, not as easy as they say. You can try this or make a flywheel locking tool from angle bar and M10 thread bar and nuts.

Wouldnt bother with liner clamp. I asked that question myself...... but not needed as you wont be undoing big end bearings.

If you decide to replace oil rail then sump is easy enough to remove, reseal with red Comma gasket seal. Never bothered with new oil rail myself but very controversal topic on Mg-Rover forum.

Thanks LR1796 for the info.

Just one question, why do I need to remove the crank nut? Is that required to replace the timing belt or something??

I don't think I'll bother with the new oil rail, I'll just face the consequences instead!

I've always fitted new head bolts when replacing H/Gs but as far as I can remember (on a different PC so can't check) the RAVE CD doesn't mention this, it just recommends that the old ones are numbered when removing them and to refit in the same position?

Jagman said:

Thanks LR1796 for the info.

Just one question, why do I need to remove the crank nut? Is that required to replace the timing belt or something??

I don't think I'll bother with the new oil rail, I'll just face the consequences instead!

I've always fitted new head bolts when replacing H/Gs but as far as I can remember (on a different PC so can't check) the RAVE CD doesn't mention this, it just recommends that the old ones are numbered when removing them and to refit in the same position?

Click to expand...

Crank nut has to come off to remove timing belt. Make sure timing mark is at 12oclock on the timing cover and cams in correct position.

Bolts can be used again if within stretch limit ( < 97mm threaded part). Replace in original positions, push holes in a labelled piece of card, slide bolts through to stop them getting mixed up.

if yu goin to malta - yu mite consider an EWP.

The head gasket issue you are worrying about was only applicable to the pre 2001 model K series engine. the only reason i know is i own a 2004 3 door XEI 1.8 and the engine is slightly different from my fathers who`s is a 2000 3 door S he just had his head gasket done at 44000 miles and the local dealer said the mod was done to all sold after aug 2001 so nothing to worry about the engines are part made by Honda from 2001 onward and are virtually bullet proof as long as they are serviced regularly hope this helps

P13ADW said:

The head gasket issue you are worrying about was only applicable to the pre 2001 model K series engine. the only reason i know is i own a 2004 3 door XEI 1.8 and the engine is slightly different from my fathers who`s is a 2000 3 door S he just had his head gasket done at 44000 miles and the local dealer said the mod was done to all sold after aug 2001 so nothing to worry about the engines are part made by Honda from 2001 onward and are virtually bullet proof as long as they are serviced regularly hope this helps

Click to expand...

HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO HO

I bet yu still believe in fairies too

Read this if you didn't already see it.

Some bunch of experts designed this monster. I bet they thought they were being clever.

K-Series problems

The engine's head-gasket was made out of an innovative silicone-type substance rather than the more traditional materials. However the cylinder head waterways were poorly machined and the thermostat was placed in a less than optimum position. These factors often resulted in head-gasket failure, particularly in larger vehicles such as the Land Rover Freelander.

In these applications the greater body weight caused the engine to heat-up too quickly compared to the rest of the system. The thermostat would then open and a sudden rush of cooler water would enter the head causing temperature distortion.

This was relieved to a certain extent by a special pressure release thermostat which, with the aid of a spring loaded valve, allowed a small amount of cool water to enter the head so that the engine warmed-up a little slower and more evenly. However, the optimum solution of moving the thermostat to the outflow from the head, allowing the rest of the water system to warm-up with the engine, was never implemented.

Another modification to reduce chance of the head-gasket failing again, is to insert steel dowels into the cylinder block when changing the head-gasket which reinforces the new gasket.

More recently, Land Rover have released a reinforced MLS (Multi-Layer Steel) head gasket for the in-line four cylinder, and 24 valve V6 versions of the K-Series engine, which until mid-2005 was fitted to the petrol variants of their Freelander model. A modified oil rail was also developed to be used in conjunction with the gasket when fitted. Although only time will tell as to whether the improved design will cure this fault of the K-Series engine, many professionals and enthusiasts now recommend the fitment of this new design over the OE standard gasket as fitted by Powertrain K-Series engines, especially in models such as the MG F/TF and Freelander, where the applications are their most stressful.

Reading that piece suggests to me that it would be GOOD practice to let the engine warm up BEFORE driving off. I know this is a slight waste of fuel, but, it might help the engine to heat up more evenly, and in the winter the heater would be ready for you! I can't reach it right now, but I think my TD5 Disco handbook tells me to do this on cold days. Check the Freelander book too.

It looks like the problem is that the water in the engine's water-passages gets up to full heat (probably around 90 degrees C), and then all of a sudden the thermosat flips open allowing a great rush of COLD water to get pumped into the lower levels of the block and up into the head causing what could best be described as a thermal shock. In the winter that cold water could be well below freezing point, always even colder than the ambient outside temp due to the suction freezing effect of having the FAN SUCKING AIR through the radiator core causing a pressure drop of the air.

While the thermostat is SHUT, the water still circulates past the water pump, and up through the block into the head, round and round at some speed. It misses the radiator entirely by taking a short-cut through the by-pass passages. When the thermostat opens, it CLOSES the by-pass and OPENS a passage to the radiator, suddenly stuffing VERY hot water in one end of the radiator, thus dispacing VERY cold water straight into the lower levels of the hot block and rising rapidly up to the head. Thermal shock is assured, and the only question is "can the engine stand it?"

IF THIS WAS MY ENGINE, here is what I would do IMMEDIATELY:

I would take out the thermostat, and I would drill 3 or 4 off 6mm holes through the static metal around the disc valve. What this would do is to ALWAYS allow SOME water from the engine to pass through the radiator, thus circulating and warming the coolant in it from the moment you start the engine running. My guess would be three 6mm holes to start with, as that should suffice to prevent the radiator from suction-cooling, and would actually make it hand warm as the motor warmed up.

The thermostat would continue to perform its function of controlling water temperature automatically - what the 3 holes would be doing is only to bleed a small amount of VERY hot water into one end of the radiator, thus a small amount of cold always comes out the other end and mixes with the hot by-pass water, giving a greatly reduced risk of thermal shock occurring. The whole thing would warm up more gradually, which is exactly what all the other fixes are designed to achieve. My way is easy-peasy, DIY, and free.

I have done this to lots of engines for a variety of reasons. The theoretical downside is the heater takes longer to heat up. Believe me - you won't notice. If you decide to revert to the original, slap in a new undrilled thermosat. Easy as that.

Whaddya think Slob?

CharlesY

CharlesY
I think yu will find the Thermostat has a bypass hose on it anyway, to allow a small amount of coolant to enter the engine - the KV6 does anyway. I agree with your sudden inrush of cold water. The answer is to fit the remote thermostat, not muck about with the LR one. The other problem of heat soak is exacerbated by short journeys, allowing the engine to heat up before the thermostat opens, then when the engine is turned off, heat soak occurs, occasionally opening the thermostat. One answer is to change the design. Fit a thermostat closer to the water outlet and to fit a EWP to enable the water to kept to a uniform temperature and to allow the cooling cycle to be continued after the engine is turned off - this is most critical on the KV6.

see also this and this

has any one tried just throwing the thermostat away? if the engine is as stressed as much as stated earlier then it might get up ti temp without it. albeit slower than optimal but that has got to be better than a gubbed engine due to heat shock

I have said my piece.
I have done this sort of thermostat drilling job many times, always with success.
If people (with no experience of this specific fix) choose not to take my
advice, so be it - it's their car, their head gasket, and their money.
I have explained in detail WHY and HOW to achieve the objective with NO alterations to the car other than three wee holes in &#163;5 thermostat.

Anyone who wants to keep taking the risk KNOWING there's a NO SNAGS DIY freebie fix that will probably sort it is .... well, whatever.

What I will not do is get involved in further dabate about it! Advice was asked for. It was freely given. Take it, or leave it.

CharlesY

OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH!

Touchy - arent we?

Have you done this mod on a 1.8 Freelander CharlesY?

The reason I ask (and I think it answers your Q too, Slob) is that, on the KV6 the thermostat is fitted inside a moulded housing that cannot be dismantled and has several pipes and bypasses moulded into it, and is therefore unmoddable. I am not sure if the 1.8 is similar, if it is - yu cant dispose of it and you cant modify it.

I repeat - have you actually carried out this mod on a 1.8 Freelander, CharlesY?

CharlesY said:

I have said my piece.
I have done this sort of thermostat drilling job many times, always with success.
If people (with no experience of this specific fix) choose not to take my
advice, so be it - it's their car, their head gasket, and their money.
I have explained in detail WHY and HOW to achieve the objective with NO alterations to the car other than three wee holes in £5 thermostat.

Anyone who wants to keep taking the risk KNOWING there's a NO SNAGS DIY freebie fix that will probably sort it is .... well, whatever.

What I will not do is get involved in further dabate about it! Advice was asked for. It was freely given. Take it, or leave it.

CharlesY

Click to expand...

ffs heidi!! have you got a hangover from last night?

P13ADW said:

The head gasket issue you are worrying about was only applicable to the pre 2001 model K series engine. the only reason i know is i own a 2004 3 door XEI 1.8 and the engine is slightly different from my fathers who`s is a 2000 3 door S he just had his head gasket done at 44000 miles and the local dealer said the mod was done to all sold after aug 2001 so nothing to worry about the engines are part made by Honda from 2001 onward and are virtually bullet proof as long as they are serviced regularly hope this helps

Click to expand...

thinks! see here