TDV8 - stalled, 2xnew turbo fitted, engine siezed immediately in garage, my bad luck apparantly

Hello,

Please can someone shed some advice on how I should or can proceed here.

I have a 2006 L322 range rover 3.6 TDV8 which just stalled on me about 20 seconds after start one morning. I was idling waiting to pull out of a roadside lay-by. There was no misfiring beforehand, just a second of two of hesitation as I pulled off, then it stalled. Upon trying to restart, the engine cranked over fine but with no fire and displayed "ENGINE SYSTEM FAULT" on the dash. I stopped cranking after about 2 seconds as I didn't want to cause any damage (it used to fire instantly so I knew something was wrong) and I pushed it off the carriageway.

I had it recovered by the RAC to an independent garage nearby who had a "land rover" flag outside (not a main dealer though) and said they could look at it. Two days later they called me to say it was a failed turbo. They said the TDV8 is a complex engine and they couldn't actually perform the work themselves and I would need to take it elsewhere, but charged me £50 for the diagnosis and asked me to get the vehicle removed as soon as I could because it was taking up space.

Not entirely believing them, I paid the £50 + vat and had it moved to another garage nearer home that I have used before. It is unlikely anyone on these forums will know where and I do not want to mention but I will say they claim to specialists in Land Rovers.

Upon arrival here, I explained the previous garage had diagnosed a failed turbo but I didn't want them to assume that was the case (I've seen a failed turbo before and it didn't result in a simple stall!!!) and I wanted them to start the diagnosis from scratch. They agreed they would want to start their own diagnostics from start anyway.

After a week, this garage called me to say it wasn't just one, but BOTH turbos that had failed and they could possibly (depending on damage) get them reconditioned at around £600 each (£1200 each if it couldn't be re-conned). This put labour at 2000 + parts + vat. I asked how both could have failed at the same time in what was a perfectly running engine serviced around 8,000 miles ago (by this garage themselves) and had full LR main dealer history before that from new. They said one had seized completely (and very badly) and one was "leaking oil absolutely everywhere".

I agreed to pay to recon the turbos and fitting.

2 weeks later, once the recon turbos had been sent off and arrived back (fortunately both were re-conned), the garage advised they were beginning to fit them. A day after this, I got a call from the garage saying both new turbos had been fitted, but upon starting the engine, they realised the oil pump had failed which had caused immediate and irreparable damage to both the engine and both NEW turbos.

How do I stand here? They are saying this is very unfortunate but I still need to pay for the new turbos because they have paid for them and a proportion of the labour. They are saying because of the unfortunate situation they will reduce the labour bill from 20 hours to 6 (odd if they didn't do anything wrong?) This still puts me at > £2,000 for what is now a scrap vehicle.

My (albeit limited as I'm not a mechanic) technical suggestion is that could the the oil pump have failed to start with, which led to the failure of the turbos in the first place? The garage didn't pick this up and just replaced the failed turbos which immediately *both* failed again due to no oil and I now also have a "damaged engine requiring replacement"?

Can anyone offer any advice as at the moment I have a +£2000 bill with the garage who will not release my 2.8 tonne paperweight until paid! (They've offered to install a re-con engine for just shy of £10,000 - far more than the vehicle is worth!!!).

Does anyone think something isn't right with this or have I just genuinely been really unlucky like the garage is claiming??

Sorry to read your predicament fella.
Sound like crooks to me......& incompetent. They should have diagnosed what would cause both turbos to fail at the same time before going any further. Seems they are admitting responsibility by reducing the labour bill (get them to put that in writing - might come in handy later on). £10,000 for a recon engine & fit! Recon 3.6 from what I can see are going for between £3.5 - £4k & would you want these guys putting a new lump in?
Their fault, they should rectify.

Nasty. Sounds like they just took the code reader at face value. Stupid mistake but people make mistakes. On the other hand, you have to take responsibility for your mistakes, especially as you'd already asked how 2 turbos could fail simultaneously. Unfortunately you have to prove that they were incompetent. Expert witness in court? Money, money, money. Paying someone else will be full cost. So it is down to negotiation now to limit the damage.

Does your RAC cover include legal support? What was the RAC man's diagnosis? Talk to them if covered.

Also, talk to Citizens Advice Bureau. They're generally good. How can you break a part fitting it and charge for a replacement? Might be an EU law stil effective!

Third, talk to your car insurance if you have legal cover and see if they can help.

Triangulate the 3 lots of answers and then go back to the garage with the answers as ammo to negotiate the price to fix.

rickead2000 said:

I have a 2006 L322 range rover 3.6 TDV8 which just stalled on me about 20 seconds after start one morning. I was idling waiting to pull out of a roadside lay-by. There was no misfiring beforehand, just a second of two of hesitation as I pulled off, then it stalled. Upon trying to restart, the engine cranked over fine but with no fire and displayed "ENGINE SYSTEM FAULT" on the dash.

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If I stopped reading right there I would be thinking timing failed, not turbos. However, given the way modern electronics govern so much in engines these days I would not be too surprised if there was a fail-safe system in the ECU that shut down the engine and refused to let it restart in the event of oil pressure loss (or some other potentially expensive failure), simply to prevent catastrophic damage

rickead2000 said:

My (albeit limited as I'm not a mechanic) technical suggestion is that could the the oil pump have failed to start with, which led to the failure of the turbos in the first place?

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I concur. As they spin at upwards of 100,000 rpm conventional bearings are not much use in a turbo, instead they float on a bearing of oil that as well as supporting the turbo, lubricates and cools it. I am sure you can figure out the potential for damage if oil pressure falls below the amount required. It would to my mind be one hell of a coincidence if both turbos failed, and then the oil pump afterwards, especially as the vehicle had not been operated.

Oil pump failed and caused the turbos to fail that much is obvious. Only reason a turbo would seize is lack of oil pressure. It should have been picked up on.

If both old turbos failed together, the cause should have been found either way before new ones fitted.

Garage will have to take full blame for this one.
They messed up the new recon turbos not the owners fault.
Sometimes you get it wrong but you have to accept blame.
The signs were there but they never noticed them.
Get the car back and negotiate a price for some of the work done, you now know what the problem was.
They will have to accept the cost of turbos and wasted time.
The joy of being a garage owner.

Not L322 or even engine related but...

I do occasional work for people on P38 BECMs - mostly unlocking, but occasionally repairs. it is a hobby for me outside of my normal line of work. Over the last year I had a couple of BECMs that I unlocked for people and sent back, and they didn't work 'out of the box' when they arrived. Whether there was another fault on the board when it came to me, or whether something got damaged when I was soldering probes on, I don't know. But in both occasions, I programmed replacement, working boards and send them out FOC at my cost to the owner so they could swap them. I only asked that they send the faulty ones back, so I could look into what the fault actually was. In the end, 2 happy customers, and a bit of extra expense at my end - but at the end of the day, I said I could offer a working solution, so I feel obligated to provide one at whatever extra cost to me, as that's what I've said I will do. Again, I do it as a hobby, not s full time business.

If it's a garage, and they have mis-diagnosed, or made a mistake, then that should be up to them to correct. OK, so you needed 2 new turbos, and it appears the oil pump failure is what's caused the turbos to fail... things happen - that's the risk of owning the vehicle. The way I see it, is that the MAXIMUM you should be liable for is the cost of 2 recon turbos, oil pump, and the labour to fix it.. as that's what's failed, and needed fixing. If they diagnosed it as 2 failed turbos, and didn't find it funny that both had blown at the same time, or even asked the question as to if something else had caused it - then the way I see it is that's on them.

If they had come to you and said: Yeah, you've got 2 blown turbos, and that's been caused by an oil pump failure, and it will cost xyz to fix - you could have decided on that as solution.

Worst case, the way I would see it is that you should only be liable as an extra as whatever the oil pump replacement would cost + labour to fit that. That's all the extra the bill would have been if they had diagnosed it properly in the first place.

Your local trading standards office will be able to help you gain resolution from the garage.

I'm in concurrence with those who say , it's down to the garage. However, what I would add is, name and shame. You may think no-one , on here, lives near you and maybe no-one does BUT someone may or some poor bastard like you will be searching the net to see if they should use that garage. You might save them a similar fate. When I was ripped off by a git in a garage, I named and shamed on here and I got on every site they advertise on and left a true and honest review of their stinking behaviour. If I saved just one poor sod from the issues I had then it was worth the £2785 they ripped me off for.




BTW just in case anyone has a vauxhall in Glasgow, stay well away from Vauxhall Repair Service in Duke Street as it's the rip off artist formerly known as Rover Workshop/Rovers Return Garage/ Rovers Garage.

gold rover said:

I'm in concurrence with those who say , it's down to the garage. However, what I would add is, name and shame. You may think no-one , on here, lives near you and maybe no-one does BUT someone may or some poor bastard like you will be searching the net to see if they should use that garage. You might save them a similar fate. When I was ripped off by a git in a garage, I named and shamed on here and I got on every site they advertise on and left a true and honest review of their stinking behaviour. If I saved just one poor sod from the issues I had then it was worth the £2785 they ripped me off for.




BTW just in case anyone has a vauxhall in Glasgow, stay well away from Vauxhall Repair Service in Duke Street as it's the rip off artist formerly known as Rover Workshop/Rovers Return Garage/ Rovers Garage.

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Let's give them a chance to put it right first, eh? Then name and shame!

Grrrrrr said:

Let's give them a chance to put it right first, eh? Then name and shame!

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I must've picked it up wrong, the message I got from his post was , basically they've binned him off.

On the face of it, I'd agree with everyone above that the garage is at fault and liable exactly as @martyuk said in post#8.

However - if the old pump failed, and caused no oil pressure which fried the turbo's, then why did the ECU allow the engine to do anything but tick over briefly after the abortive repair? Or does said ECU not notice a lack of oil pressure? I'm hoping I'm wrong in some way here... as if I am right - there is an inconsistency which needs resolving.....

Which leads me onto the error message - have the "garage" cleared the history of faults from said ECU which lead to the "engine system failure" - IOW, whilst I'm no expert on this modern electronical nonsense, should the fault code which caused the error, not have told someone what was wrong.... as in... "engine oil pressure below acceptable limit" or some such ????? ( and who cleared such an important fault code - and is it still there in the history ( if any ), OR on any printout from the diagnostic the first garage did for you, if it exists?)

If he does not report back, we will never know.

gold rover said:

I must've picked it up wrong, the message I got from his post was , basically they've binned him off.

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I think they offered to put it right at a reduced hourly rate. The question I should he pay at all? Morally we all agree no. Legally we nee advice, I think. Regardless it needs negotiation an if that fails then name and shame!

Hope he does come back an let us know the outcome.

wammers said:

Oil pump failed and caused the turbos to fail that much is obvious. Only reason a turbo would seize is lack of oil pressure. It should have been picked up on.

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+1 pretty obvious imo first port of call

The original poster should have noticed the oil pressure warning light coming on and stopped it right away,before it seized the turbos,they wouldn't have suddenly seized,if the light was on for only a few seconds,if they did see the light on they should have mentioned it to the garage aswell,however the garage should also have noticed this unless the light never came on atal and there was a blockage in the oil ways at the top end somewhere,and the rest of the engine had pressure ,but they should have primed the turbos first,and make sure there is oil flowing out the oil drain pipes,harder to do on some vehicles but worth the effort.

dove said:

The original poster should have noticed the oil pressure warning light coming on and stopped it right away,before it seized the turbos,they wouldn't have suddenly seized,if the light was on for only a few seconds,if they did see the light on they should have mentioned it to the garage aswell,however the garage should also have noticed this unless the light never came on atal and there was a blockage in the oil ways at the top end somewhere,and the rest of the engine had pressure ,but they should have primed the turbos first,and make sure there is oil flowing out the oil drain pipes,harder to do on some vehicles but worth the effort.

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Turbos MUST always be filled with oil prior to first start. It is standard practice.

I know that, you prime it up with the engine oil pump,just crank it over with injector harness disconnected or something that will stop it from firing till oil starts to come out turbo drain pipes,

the garage ****ed up - if they had not have ****ed up, they would not have written off two more turbos

it may well be bad luck, but, in this case, its their bad luck, and not yours.

in business these things happen - profit margins smooth over the losses - its just the way it goes

record and keep everything you can - if / when it goes to court, it will all come in handy