Td4 engine sounds like a hedge cutter

john t · Mar 28, 2012

ok guys , here is a bit of a story and it has taken me the best part of two weeks to get the engine running, lots of head scratching , your input would be much appreciated.

i was on a two hour drive, everything running great, doing about 40 mph country lanes, then the engine starts making a clattering noise sounding like a hedge cutter, clatter clatter, pulls over engine dies, try to restart appears to have no compression ?
the AA arrives, he has a listen engine turns over but confirms no compression ,suspects cam chain , yikes

anyways , car is recovered i then strips the top end,, injectors out and cam cover off, turns over engine,,, cam chain seems ok cams turning ok ,

also check out the fuel supply and rig up the injectors to test they are firing(i have vid and pics on how i did this ) all seems ok refits cover and injectors , turns over engine , i now have compression

i try to start it on easy start but it only backfires,, getting very confused now

ok lots more head scratching , decided to stripp cam cover off again, i then try turning both cams with a spanner and i find that the exhaust camshaft is able to turn ,,,,,, the drive sprocket nut has become loose

ok a its relief that i have found a problem ,, so i now set up and re-time the engine camshafts, refit cam cover and injectors , the engine now starts but i have the clatter clatter noise really sounds bad , really bad,

over to you guys, what should i be looking at ?
im just about to pull out the injectors as im thinking, if one is faulty it could give these symptoms ,

any ideas ?

i have tested fuel supply , and i have fuel continually running back from the hp pump return line,, is this normal ?i have stripped the pump it all looks good , i have tried a different fuel regulator and a different fuel pressure sensor

john t

mjrimmer · Mar 28, 2012

When one of mine was going fubar it sounded horrible as if you were running a petrol engine with one of the plugs out.
Took my synergy off and this cured it until it finally gave up the ghost in the fast lane a month or so later.
Diagnostics came back with low fuel pressure and a leak back test confirmed an injector was totally buggered.

Hallbeckengineering · Mar 28, 2012

if your camshaft locking nut is loose and the engine has been turning it will probably have damaged some valves etcetera.

cox325 · Mar 28, 2012

clatter clatter can come in various forms of clattering!! mine turned out to be the damperd crank pulley, other symptoms where the presence of "glitter" tiny minute bits of woodruff key disentegrated. Sounded orrible but new pulley and all is well. bugger to get off too, use an air wrench. The noise was more apparant by the drivers side of the engine, take off the wheel arch liner and you'll get a perfect view/access to the pulley.

Hope its that cos that would be the cheapest and less damaging fix. otherwise I'm not sure. I hope its not the valve side of things, wouldnt have thought so cos its a timing chain. Hope this might help your diagnosis!!

john t · Mar 28, 2012

well i have just had the injectors out, retested by rigging them up using the pipework reversed and firing into plastic bottles, they are all firing ok as far as i can tell, , when the engine is turning over with the injectors out there are no unusual noises, no clatter

im am thinking that there shouldn't be fuel continually returning out of the hp pump, i can hear it and don't remember hearing it before, can anyone confirm this ?

will remove the synergy completely tomorrow , i also considered valve damage but when i was timing the cams i could turn the cam with pistons at tdc so i think it has clearance

i do think the clatter is diesel clatter and not a mechanical clatter, just need some ideas as i really dont want to take the head off until im certain

Chaser · Mar 28, 2012

john t said:
i also considered valve damage but when i was timing the cams i could turn the cam with pistons at tdc so i think it has clearance

That doesn't sound good, you shouldn't be able to completely revolve the cams at TDC.
The head is flat and gasket selection is critical according to piston protrusion as clearance is so fine. The valve cut outs on the piston crowns are very shallow and wouldn't clear a fully open valve.
Even heard of big end wear causing valve contact on these.
There could be damage to just about anything, valves, guides, rockers, hydraulic tappets.

edge · Mar 29, 2012

If the clatter stops with all the injectors out could it be that one is not seating properly and blowing past the threads? (a bit like a badly seated spark plug)

john t · Mar 29, 2012

update,,
cox 325,, ,i took a look as you suggested, found the crankshaft pulley almost about to come off, it is now in two parts, so removed all the belts and tried engine again it started but still a horrible clatter clatter, , also noticed quite a bit of end float on the crank ? is this normal ,would just renewing the crank pulley eliminate the clatter?

chaser ,, the fact that there is no mechanical noises when the engine is turned over with injectors out , im hoping the valves are good , i have proved that i have compression on each cylnder so im thinking replace the crank pulley first before stripping the cylinder head, maybe this is wishfull thinking

teddywood1 · Mar 29, 2012

i have just replace my crankshaft pulley today good job I made a special spanner to lock the pulley and got a 5 feet extension bar just about did it thank god

cox325 · Mar 29, 2012

john t said:
update,,
cox 325,, ,i took a look as you suggested, found the crankshaft pulley almost about to come off, it is now in two parts, so removed all the belts and tried engine again it started but still a horrible clatter clatter, , also noticed quite a bit of end float on the crank ? is this normal ,would just renewing the crank pulley eliminate the clatter?

chaser ,, the fact that there is no mechanical noises when the engine is turned over with injectors out , im hoping the valves are good , i have proved that i have compression on each cylnder so im thinking replace the crank pulley first before stripping the cylinder head, maybe this is wishfull thinking

the pulley should be one peice! looks like the rubber has completly gone! I belieive there is play hence the reason the dampered pulley etc. either way you will need a new one, and whilst its off check the tensioners woulnt hurt to replace the belts too. i think then you'll be a happy bunny pal......

john t · Mar 29, 2012

teddywood1, had your crankshaft pulley failed ? what were the symptoms, looks like i will have to make up something to lock the shaft as i have tried and it is very very tight ,
i dont have access to a impact wrench ,

teddywood1 · Apr 3, 2012

I did replace both belts second one for air con a bit worried though when I took the pulley off I saw a place for something like a woodruff key only just square is their supposed to be a key there or is it just tighten up

teddywood1 · Apr 4, 2012

john t yes the crankshaft pulley had failed a very loud clater like sound in the hanes manuel it says stick a wide blade screw driver in the flywheel I have done that before many years ago on a mini but I compleatly was against it on the freelander as the tightness of that bolt is somthing else do you have a manual or auto if it is a manuel get somebody in the drive seat and have it in gear with the brakes full on and a long pipe and you will need impact socket the ordinary sockets shatter the bolt is a normal anti clockwise undo one good luck

teddywood1 · Apr 4, 2012

well I have got to do the job again the key shaped like a squre piece of metal was missing and I kept thinking that there should be one and I asked a couple of mecanics who said no just tighten it up right 74 Lbs then a futher 60 degrees then anothe 60 then 30 degrees so I did as I could not see the key anywhere and then today I checked with stratstones landrover and they said yes and we will order you one at a cost of £1.odd so the job has to be done for just over a pound so take heed if you are doing the job make sure you have the key that goes into the slot on the crankshaft and pulley but at least it will not be so hard this time even the haynes manual does not mention it

Chaser · Apr 4, 2012

pretty sure there is only the one woodruff key that locates the timing chain sprocket.

cox325 · Apr 4, 2012

the woodruff key comes as two little semi circles and slots together to make the circular key, should come with the new pulley, use grease to "glue" it in place when lining it all you, the crank pulley is a staged torqued up, all in the haynes, I think its 100nm then a 60 turn folloed by 30 degree turn. all from memory though!!

Chaser · Apr 4, 2012

a circular woodruff key?

When the damper pulley is removed there is a notch at the back that locates on the end of the key that locates the timing sprocket. The crankshaft timing sprocket protrudes through the the timing cover oil seal and the back of the damper fits inside it.

cox325 · Apr 4, 2012

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this is what i had to replace, perhaps circular isnt the best description!! but you'll see the 2 "keys" in the photo above!!!

Chaser · Apr 5, 2012

Yeah I see but the 2 woodruff keys don't fit together in any way, they are 2 individual keys, the curved edge fits into the crank. (those supplied could be of different thickness to allow selection as they have to be a tight fit) My point though is there is only one keyway or slot in the crank which is under the timing chain sprocket. I can't see how this has been left out in teddywood1's case as it would cause issues setting valve timing on engine assembly.

Maybe he fitted a non genuine pulley that didn't have the inner boss with the notch cut out of it?? If that were the case pulley itself can, in theory, be fitted in any position as it's only driving ancillaries.

john t · Apr 11, 2012

well guys an update, i have been on holls for a week or so ,
i replaced the pulley last night , there was no key and i refitted as i found it , to remove the bolt i had to use a long socket wrench wedged on the ground and turned over using the starter, took two attempts but quite easy in the end as i had struggled with an impact wrench and other methods,
i have made a locking tool so i can re tighten up the crank bolt,

anyways i restated the engine although the airbox and turbo hoses are still off it still makes a clatter, so im going to refit as it should be and then run it see if it quietens down , as it has had a lot of cranking , it might improve as it warms up, other wise im thinking the head will have to come off for inspection ,
a job i am seriously trying to avoid doing ,

Td4 engine sounds like a hedge cutter

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