Series 3 Swivel, bearing, juddering steering wheel at speed confusion!!

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soydemadrid

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43
Hi I hope someone with more experience can help me out. I have a 1972 Series 3 SWB Land Rover.

Last week I noticed when I got to around 30mph the steering wheel would start shaking and juddering in my hands. Quite a scary thing to experience really and it doesn't give much confidence that your car is safe!

I already knew from the last MOT on just an advisory that there was some play in my driver's side wheel bearing, so I thought it must be a sign that I'd gone too long and it needed tightening up.

I already have a spare wheel bearing if it needs replacing, but once I'd jacked up the car and got the spring hanger on an axle side the "play" wasn't really what I expected. There was a little left to right (3 and 9) but the top to bottom (12 and 6) was more of a clonk or knock. So I tightened up the wheel bearing rather than taking everything out just to see if it would get rid of the play and the knock movement.

Tightening it up completely removed the side to side (3 and 9) play. But the up and down knock or movement is still there and quite significant. The wheel seems to rotate and spin smoothly and I can't hear any nasty noises, maybe just a touch of brake drag but it seems smooth.

Part of the confusion for me is that reading online some people say 3 and 9 is usually wheel bearing and others say it is swivel bearings. While others say 12 and 6 is more likely wheel bearings and others say is is swivel!

When looking at the axle from the front of the car while knocking or moving the wheel up and down I can see the whole drive train ( if that's the right word for it ) moving. The play doesn't appear to be in the hub or at the wheel itself. So now I'm thinking swivel bearings, but are these not for side to side and steering action rather than up and down?

Any advice really appreciated. :)
 
Swivel bearings do keep control of the side to side, ie steering, but when they get worn they also go up and down! Replacement is the best option. I can't recall if Series have adjustable parts (shims) to take up this play or not.
 
Yes you can re shim.

I would be tempted to strip the whole swivel ball to check it over on a new vehicle. You don’t know what’s going on in there.

A quick fix however is to buy a few shims off the interweb (there are several thicknesses) and swap and change them until the correct resistance is achieved via a spring balance on the hub. It’s a hit and miss process but shouldn’t take too long and is relatively easy.
 
Bobsticle said:
Yes you can re shim.

I would be tempted to strip the whole swivel ball to check it over on a new vehicle. You don’t know what’s going on in there.

A quick fix however is to buy a few shims off the interweb (there are several thicknesses) and swap and change them until the correct resistance is achieved via a spring balance on the hub. It’s a hit and miss process but shouldn’t take too long and is relatively easy.
Click to expand...
youd just remove the thinnest and go from there, i doubt youd need anymore shims unless fitting new pin ,bush and thrust washer
 
jamesmartin said:
youd just remove the thinnest and go from there, i doubt youd need anymore shims unless fitting new pin ,bush and thrust washer
Click to expand...
In my limited experience and without seeing the shims in question I couldn’t say if a single one was re usable of if indeed lack of lubrication has rendered the stack a single lump of oxidised crap. I know one thing though. I would have spent mi fiver and have a brand new selection sat on the grease tin before taking a spanner to it.
I’d probably have a new bearing and bush at the ready anorl.
 
Hi thanks, so does it defo sound like Swivel bearing to you lot then?

Currently there looks to be 1 shim at the bottom and 1 shim at the top. I thought early Series 3s only had them at the top or is this not the case any more?

If I have 1 shim at the top and 1 under the bottom are we saying I just remove one of them or both of them completely? Or am I adding shims?

Also when I take it all apart do I have both spring hangers up on axle stands at both sides and do I need to support anything else like under the bottom swivel bearing or is it safe to just pull it all apart and put it back? I don't fancy busting it completely!!
 
shims should go at the top, if seal is still in the swivel support under the bottom pin before undoing the top, to tighten swivel remove shims a thin one first then see how you go
 
It shouldn’t all fall to bits if you simply take off the top to adjust the shimming.
I found there was a bit missing from the old set up when I replaced the full balls along with the top and bottom bearings.
It was a slim fibre washer that sits in the bottom of the hole where the top bush slides down. I can only presume this aids the grip when the bush is tightened down.
 
Hi ok so in the end I replaced the:

- Swivel ball
- Wheel bearings, swivel bearing and half shaft bearing and collars/races
- the top kingpin and all seals
- and set preload etc

- also changed both front brakes with new shoes, pistons, springs etc.

Took ages as everything was rusted solid and couldn't undo anything!!

Also changed track rod and ends. And redid the toe-in.

Put it all back together and although it seems better I'm still getting a vibration or judder through the steering wheel at around 30-35mph.

Less or more speed and it seems ok.

Now I'm wondering if it is my gearbox??
 
I'd swap tyres left to right and front to rear ... see if the vibration goes or changes ...
 
Hi thanks I'll try both. Might just take the wheels for a rebalancing anyway as I bought them used...

With the props, do I just grab them and wiggle to see if any movement? What is the best way to check them over? Thanks again!
 
Yes grab wiggle,push,pull and look for any unusual movement. Any up down side to side movement at the center splines of the shaft is bad. Replacement is the only answer. Do test with wheels chocked and handbrake off.
 
soydemadrid said:
Hi ok so in the end I replaced the:

- Swivel ball
- Wheel bearings, swivel bearing and half shaft bearing and collars/races
- the top kingpin and all seals
- and set preload etc

- also changed both front brakes with new shoes, pistons, springs etc.

Took ages as everything was rusted solid and couldn't undo anything!!

Also changed track rod and ends. And redid the toe-in.

Put it all back together and although it seems better I'm still getting a vibration or judder through the steering wheel at around 30-35mph.

Less or more speed and it seems ok.

Now I'm wondering if it is my gearbox??
Click to expand...
if its through the steering wheel it tends to be steering related ie wheels,tracking ,play
 
soydemadrid said:
With the props, do I just grab them and wiggle to see if any movement? What is the best way to check them over? Thanks again!
Click to expand...

Yes that is the best way, it is also worth having a close look at the UJ's as you get tell tale rust marks around the dry bearing cup.
However, it may also be worth removing each prop in turn (make sure you replace the nuts holding the handbrake drum on) and going for a test drive in diff lock to see if it makes any difference. If the vibration is the same you know it is not the props.
 
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