Steering Relay Oil

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Each bush is not only split but it has a sizable vertical groove machined in it, oil should be coming out of the drain nearly as fast as you can get it in the top. If the bushes are excessively worn these grooves may have also been worn away, this may impede the process.
Split Bush.jpg
 
Had another go with the airline today and some tubing and some diesel and had some help turning the steering while I worked but still no joy.

If I could find a connector for the airline that would screw directly into one of the top holes I could hit the blockage with more force. This is the only idea I have left that doesn't involved removing the thing.

I've left diesel sat in the top hole tonight in a vain effort to get something softened.

I remember a story Fred Dibnah once told about a blocked injector on his first steam engine. He took it to an engineering works for help but they wouldn't take his money and simply told him to take it home, chuck it in the fire, and bang it outside on the flagstones. This worked and the blockage came out as soot. What's tufnol made of? Would it melt? (Apparently not once first cured, according to http://ahistoryoftufnol.org/whatistufnol/, but I'm sure the sun would do it) (I'm only half joking here, if I removed the whole relay I'd probably soak it in diesel first..)
 
I've done my best to understand the cross-section diagram. If I am right, all four top holes go down, then in towards the shaft, at which point they all reach the top of the upper split bush. ? At the bottom, only one of the holes is the drain plug (the one nearest the wheel on my RHD).

I'll be taking the top and bottom plates off again as suggested. And I've dug out some titanium wire trace I use for fishing..
 
I've had the top and bottom plates off and been sticking all sorts in the bolt holes and blowing WD40 and diesel in up to around 120PSI. I've got a lot of bits out, and I can definitely get more oil in now than when I started, but I still can't get it run through top to bottom. So I'm getting somewhere. I've topped it up with diesel again and left it until the weekend when I'll maybe have another go.

With the top plate off, what am I looking at round the shaft immediately under where the seal was? That's not the top of the split bushes is it? I can't see any holes or gaps to get some wire into except for the bolt holes.
 
scottonthefen said:
I've done my best to understand the cross-section diagram. If I am right, all four top holes go down, then in towards the shaft, at which point they all reach the top of the upper split bush. ? At the bottom, only one of the holes is the drain plug (the one nearest the wheel on my RHD).

I'll be taking the top and bottom plates off again as suggested. And I've dug out some titanium wire trace I use for fishing..
Click to expand...
Was talking to a mate yesterday about these relay shaft assemblies, he has a Series 1 and a 2A and is having similar problems with the relays both appear to have worn bushes and a certain amount of "rocking of the shaft", it appears that the "tuffnol" bushes are worn beyond hope. My solution as a machinist would be to replace the bushes with sealed deep groove ball bearings, to do this we would need to do some machining mods to the shaft and maybe the housings.
The only problem would be that we have come to the conclusion that using this spring loaded self adjusting "tuffnol" split tapered bushing system was early Landy engineerings concession to some form of steering dampening and we would loose that dampening effect, but as later models had an hydraulic damper fitted that would be a substitute solution.
My opinion is that the relay shaft just provides another place for wear to add more "slop" in the steering to add to the vague action of the steering box.
 
There is a spacer on the shaft under the oil seal.
A well serviced steering relay does do damping and gives good positive steering provided all other parts are also serviced.
 
Agreed, I've always understood the relay to be a damper as well. If it was only to transfer motion it could have taper rollers but it has tufnol and a spring, tufnol is hard wearing but it is not friction free, it has s slight grip.
 
I've often thought that a modified steering relay, fitted with taper bearings would be a better idea but there would probably be a need for a steering damper to be added. Such a modified relay could be filled with one-shot grease and I think it would be a big improvement over the original.
 
When you first explained the spring and split bushes to me I thought it was ingenious because as the split bushes wear the spring pushes them up and down to compensate for that wear and the relay shaft remains rigid and vertical. As taper bearings wore, with nothing to auto-compensate, would you start to get play in the shaft when trying to turn it with the upper lever?
 
scottonthefen said:
When you first explained the spring and split bushes to me I thought it was ingenious because as the split bushes wear the spring pushes them up and down to compensate for that wear and the relay shaft remains rigid and vertical. As taper bearings wore, with nothing to auto-compensate, would you start to get play in the shaft when trying to turn it with the upper lever?
Click to expand...
Yes, there would be a need to be able to adjust to compensate for wear..., but, what if you fitted the taper bearings with the wide openings facing inwards towards each other, then you could use a spring to take up the wear automatically like for the tufnol bushes? This thought has just hatched in my brain and I might be missing something.

Edit: thinking more about it I can see problems with assembling this thing, the spring idea might not work out so well... Maybe manual adjustment from the outside is the way to make it work. As Gazbo has said: wear would be negligible anyway. Shims might be an idea for adjustment, some pre-load could be factored in.
 
Last edited:
scottonthefen said:
When you first explained the spring and split bushes to me I thought it was ingenious because as the split bushes wear the spring pushes them up and down to compensate for that wear and the relay shaft remains rigid and vertical. As taper bearings wore, with nothing to auto-compensate, would you start to get play in the shaft when trying to turn it with the upper lever?
Click to expand...
Thing is, a set of sealed and lubricated bearings would not wear much at all the rotational movement is very small, the tuffnol self adjusts but is very limited and as soon as it gets a bit dry/corroded in there it stops doing it's self adjusting, it's then that the steering vagueness increases.
And the steering in these is so heavy, the dampening effect works both ways it doesn't help, I'll be voting for a bearing conversion if I ever get my "dream S1".
 
Extreedoc said:
Yes, there would be a need to be able to adjust to compensate for wear..., but, what if you fitted the taper bearings with the wide openings facing inwards towards each other, then you could use a spring to take up the wear automatically like for the tufnol bushes? This thought has just hatched in my brain and I might be missing something.
Click to expand...
Taper rollers in such an installation would be set with fixed spacers and a "preload" and would not require a "self adjust mechanism". Your idea with the spring and tapered rollers would not work because of the "ramp effect" of the bearing cup on the cone.
I'm more inclined to try a conversion with deep groove ball bearings because of their precision location properties and they can be obtained with integral seals to supplement the original end plate seals.
 
Gazbo said:
Taper rollers in such an installation would be set with fixed spacers and a "preload" and would not require a "self adjust mechanism". Your idea with the spring and tapered rollers would not work because of the "ramp effect" of the bearing cup on the cone.
I'm more inclined to try a conversion with deep groove ball bearings because of their precision location properties and they can be obtained with integral seals to supplement the original end plate seals.
Click to expand...
The objections to my new idea were forming as quickly as the idea itself... I like the idea of deep groove bearings though.
 
Extreedoc said:
The objections to my new idea were forming as quickly as the idea itself... I like the idea of deep groove bearings though.
Click to expand...
Yes, it would take a bit of machining and there is probably a need for a hydraulic steering damper but I'm pretty convinced it's not a bad way to go, nearly got my old mate here convinced, biggest thing with his two will be getting the relay assemblies out of the chassis, they've been in there a lot of years, but Landy life is full of little struggles, and we loves a challenge.
 
My vote goes to the pre loaded taper roller bearings, much like you have in the pinion in the diff. Deep groove ball bearings are not best suited to this rocking motion and have limited load carrying capabilities compared to a roller bearing..
 
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