Starter Motor (Ignition wire?) Problem.

When we first bought the landrover (300tdi) the previous owner said that it has an intermittent starter motor issue and his solution is to turn it off, rock it back and forth and it will start up fine. I can honestly say I have never had an issue with it, until now....

It started last week, leaving the Great British Landrover Show, turned the key the engine turned over, but would not start. I was tired and a bit annoyed at this point so didn't logically think about things, just went around thumping anything with a wire coming out of it and it all of a sudden started. On a side note, if you are on here, thank you very much to the gents in the Green Disco 2 behind us who looked ready to come and save the day!

Once home I had a think, the most logical solution I came to was a duff battery. My partner (who doubts everything I do with the landrover - rightly so sometimes!) insisted she must take it to KwikFit for a battery check. Sure enough they said that "the battery is on its way out as it drops to 10v when you turn it over" and the replacement will be £180. I told her I would sort it myself as I am refusing to pay there ransom price. Playing with the pickup trucks at work, I whacked a volt meter on a few and sure enough, the voltage dropped on all of them to 10v / 10.5v / 11v respectfully. So I dont think its that.

Now when this issue happened, it was after we had driven. So next logical thing was the alternator - now, as it happens I actually changed it for a new bigger one (65A instead of 45A) the other day as it packed up in the middle of the night on a 90 mile journey (another story for another day). So I know this is working fine (I double checked, and yes this works).

Anyway, this issue has not occurred since and like with all problems, you just ignore it until it happens again. So, on Tuesday this week I drove 'tup north to the quarry I am working on at the moment. Got me here fine, turned the engine off, went into the site office, came back out and guess what.... nothing. Dead. Would not even turn over. As I had work to do I borrowed one of there trucks and the site fitter / mechanic had a look at mine. They are all into there landrovers up here and so I am happy to think they know what they are doing (turns out you don't need a volt meter to check voltage, just put a screw driver on it and see how many sparks come off.........).

He came back about 20 mins later and said he removed the ignition cable (starter motor end), fiddled with it, put it back on, and there we go. Works a treat. Normally I would have a look at these things myself but as I am away I dont really have the time and need it now, so I mentioned in passing to the friendly fitter that I might go to a garage "dont waste your money, just do this...." was the reply I got. Now I am not sure if this is because he is a tight northerner or because 'its a landrover thing' anyway I took his advice and carried on about my day.

Today I have been driving around, no issues so far, until I went off road around the quarry - Serious mud, serious hills, the place is awful at the moment. I stopped on a hill, turned the engine off, did what I had to and low and behold it wont start again. What I did was remove the ignition feed wire, cursed, then put it back on. And it worked fine. I didnt risk turning it off again mind. Since I have parked up at the office now and started it a few times and again the issue has gone.

I am discounting the first time this happened (at the landrover show) from this problem, I have a sneaking suspicion my partner left something on and the problem was slightly different. But the other two times the only thing that links them is going off road - the first time I went through a flooded road, and the second in all the mud and water around site. Other than that there is no logical think between when it happens.

So if you have read this far, well done, have a sticker, but I feel it is easier to explain what has happened than just saying "its broke" as i am not actually sure what is broken.

As much as the fitter thinks I can live with this problem, I dont want to, knowing it will only get worse and at the worse possible time it will fail altogether. So, my question to you, what is it? Do you think its a dodgey ignition wire / connection / water maybe got into it (though no evidence of this). Or is it a starter motor issue?

When I get home and I can actually feel my fingers again I will have a proper look, get the wire off, clean it and the terminals up. I am tempted to just replace the whole lot for peace of mind - Heck I will even do the ignition barrel too which does not lock without encouragement.

I'd replace the ignition switch (behind the lock barrel) if you are at all dubious about it - like everything else, these are known to give trouble with age. As you have said, it could just be the connector/wire from it to the solenoid on the starter. If this connector is any way loose it could well be your bogie. Hard to prove anything when the fault is intermittent. Time to delve into the dash!

It's very common to have a rubbish connection at the starter because of water and heat. Take the wire off and fit a new female spade terminal, make sure it is a good snug fit. The ign switch is a bit more fiddling to do, think they are £15 something like that, the barral is a lot more. I would just do the terminal for now because that's 99% your problem imho.

If its a 300 then you may have an immobiliser fitted (do you have a black metal box fitted in the battery box on the front face?). If so then it is probably dry joints on the relay contacts inside it (one does starter and the other the fuel solenoid). If you do have one then it can be opened up and repaired (I did it with mine)

zeaphod said:

I'd replace the ignition switch (behind the lock barrel) if you are at all dubious about it - like everything else, these are known to give trouble with age. As you have said, it could just be the connector/wire from it to the solenoid on the starter. If this connector is any way loose it could well be your bogie. Hard to prove anything when the fault is intermittent. Time to delve into the dash!

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If its the switch, why do you think removing and replacing the wire make it work first time? Its one of those annoying problems that it will only ever do it at the worst possible moment and not under test conditions. I am hoping to stay away from the dash! It didn't end well last time I went near it!!

Flossie said:

It's very common to have a rubbish connection at the starter because of water and heat. Take the wire off and fit a new female spade terminal, make sure it is a good snug fit. The ign switch is a bit more fiddling to do, think they are £15 something like that, the barral is a lot more. I would just do the terminal for now because that's 99% your problem imho.

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The more I think about it, there more I think it might be water, but saying that, there was no water (none that I can recall) around the connection when it happened - I will stand corrected, I didnt really look as I was in a rush to get it going. I think your right, I will work my way up. Start with the spade terminal / wire and go up from there. Out of interest, what part of Shropshire are you from? I am from Bridgnorth originally.

Kwakerman said:

If its a 300 then you may have an immobiliser fitted (do you have a black metal box fitted in the battery box on the front face?). If so then it is probably dry joints on the relay contacts inside it (one does starter and the other the fuel solenoid). If you do have one then it can be opened up and repaired (I did it with mine)

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Yes it does, I always wondered what that was! Its worth a look, I recently got a starter cut off switch (for security) which I need to fit so I need to get in there at some point anyway. How would removing the wire on the starter cause it to work again?

19_Hue_95 said:

Yes it does, I always wondered what that was! Its worth a look, I recently got a starter cut off switch (for security) which I need to fit so I need to get in there at some point anyway. How would removing the wire on the starter cause it to work again?

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The relays suffer from intermittent joins so randomly do odd things. Next time it does it don't touch the starter wire but give that box a good thump with a lump of wood or something similar and try starting bit again - you may be surprised!

19_Hue_95 said:

If its the switch, why do you think removing and replacing the wire make it work first time? Its one of those annoying problems that it will only ever do it at the worst possible moment and not under test conditions. I am hoping to stay away from the dash! It didn't end well last time I went near it!!



The more I think about it, there more I think it might be water, but saying that, there was no water (none that I can recall) around the connection when it happened - I will stand corrected, I didnt really look as I was in a rush to get it going. I think your right, I will work my way up. Start with the spade terminal / wire and go up from there. Out of interest, what part of Shropshire are you from? I am from Bridgnorth originally.



Yes it does, I always wondered what that was! Its worth a look, I recently got a starter cut off switch (for security) which I need to fit so I need to get in there at some point anyway. How would removing the wire on the starter cause it to work again?

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If you think it has any water around the connection, give it light coating of WD40 when you park up one night. The WD40 and residual heat should sort any moisture issues.

Kwakerman said:

The relays suffer from intermittent joins so randomly do odd things. Next time it does it don't touch the starter wire but give that box a good thump with a lump of wood or something similar and try starting bit again - you may be surprised!

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Ill try that cheers, I will also hold you to it when I break down on the way home tomorrow!!

mick 1986 said:

If you think it has any water around the connection, give it light coating of WD40 when you park up one night. The WD40 and residual heat should sort any moisture issues.

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Never heard of that before, I was going to just use petroleum jelly.

I meant that water will cause corrosion , it doesn't have to be wet when you look at it.
The terminal is brass, brass goes green and manky when it's damp or wet. This green increases the resistance of the current to flow.
Simply giving it a quick clean can get it working again, this is quite easy to do on the starter male terminal but not on the female one which is why I said to fit a new one.

Oh... Telford but a posh bit or at least it was until the council built loads of council houses in the field behind me.

The lucas type female terminals can open up a bit causing poor connections, it is worth removing the wire on the starter solenoid, (white/red wire) and GENTLY compressing the terminal with pliers to ensure that it is a nice tight fit.

Has anybody actually read his post? If you have some people really shouldn't be advising others what to do about fixing vehicles! The problem is at the starter end and someone advised replacing the ignition switch? WTF?

OP, you need to get to the starter. It might mean removing the exhaust downpipe to make your life easier. Remove the wire, check the connection is tight, check the spade for corrosion and clean up so its bright. You can gently nip up the female end with a pair of pliers, you want it to feel tight when reconnecting. Disconnect the battery before you do anything! You could use servisol switch cleaner to try and blow the gunk out of the female connector or some wd40, I often find an old tooth brush really good at cleaning fiddle things like this, plenty of cleaning fluid though. Look for chaffed insulation and make it all good.

If you wanted to you could clean up the rest of the connections too, I would, I would also clean up the earth from battery to chassis and both battery terminals. Basically, overhaul the starting system electrics this side of the ignition switch.

Some advice is better than others, but at least none of them have tried to sell him a battery for £180! Don't you love fast fit centres.

I had similar problems with my 200 last summer, I did replace the ignition switch and it seamed to sort it for a while.When problems started again I needed to keep the landy going so ran a wire with a switch in it from a live under the bonnet direct to the starter solonoid. This worked every time eliminating any problem with the starter it's self.
Later while testing the feed from the ignition to the starter I found it was intermittent but could hear a relay clicking in the fuse box [ why have a relay in a starter line I don't know as it has little load ] Relay was clicking but power was only getting to the starter now and then. Replaced relay ,cleaned contacts an been good since.

I had exact same problem with 200tdi, It was a loose wire on the starter done what Nobber described above and it started first time every time after that.

Intermittent faults like this are very hard to properly diagnose. But definitely get the terminal at the starter/solenoid cleaned up and tightened, maybe even remake the connection with a new terminal. I'd also fit a new ignition switch anyway, but I'm paranoid that way.

Cheers for the help ladies and gents, a little update. I have cleaned and tightened the connection, and that seemed to work - well that problem has not re-occurred for a little while (touch wood) BUT a new problem has started and I have a little feeling it’s linked. So here goes, Volume 2:

Last week I pulled up in the car park to get breakfast on the way to the quarry and when I got in and started there was nothing, like before, dead as a doornail. So I fiddled with the wire and still nothing, but when I turned the key a little icon (a car with a key inside it – I now know it’s the immobiliser light) appeared on the dash, I have never seen it before or since.

In the heat of the moment I did what any agitated landy mechanic does and hit things until it worked – I found disconnecting the battery and reconnecting worked, anyway we started and on the way we went.

Once on site I had a little play and noticed the following, when I turned the key all the way, there was nothing, but when released, it started. This is about the same time I realised I am in trouble. About an hour later I came back to the landy to move it back to the office, it turned over, but would not start.

Cut a long story short (and an ever longer journey being towed behind a CAT D9 through a quarry), I realised it was the fuel system as it would not bump start. So piece by piece I removed it until I found the culprit – Fuel stop solenoid, I removed the pin inside and away we went. The catch is I now can only stop the engine by stalling, which is less than ideal.

As I was working away at the time I went to a local 4x4 garage that got a new stop solenoid for me, they replaced the part, but it would still not turn over. Get the multi-meter out on it and you find it’s only drawing 9v instead of 12v – hence the reason why it is not opening.

The garages immediate thought was immobiliser (get the circuit diagram out and you can see that the stop solenoid feeds straight into the immobiliser spider), this makes sense to me because of the issues I had in the car park that morning.

As far as I am aware the spider is buried in the dash somewhere, so I am loathed to rip it all out and it not be that issue. I am going to ask my local mechanic what he thinks as I am not altogether sure yet. But I feel if this is the problem then I have two solutions – 1) add my own live feed from solenoid to ignition and bypass spider, 2) use Landrover spider bypass to well, bypass the spider (would this work?!).

Is there 12v at everything else? Is it turning over fast like it should?

Fuel AND starter issues does point to the immobiliser.

nobber said:

Is there 12v at everything else? Is it turning over fast like it should?

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Yep and yep. Everything works fine, I even played around the other day and turned everything I could find one (lights, wipers, radio, etc.) and started easily.

Rougharse Racing said:

Fuel AND starter issues does point to the immobiliser.

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That was my thinking. The whole thing seems too closely related to be a coincidence. I spoke to the garage this morning and he didn't seem to know but will ask the 'landrover guy'.
I was thinking last night that I might run a wire straight from the battery, to a hidden switch, then to the solenoid. That would solve my issue and add an extra security layer - would be a bit un conventional turning it off though.