Series 3, 109 rear springs. SWB vs LWB. & Axle location.

Hi All,
I've just bought a late Series 3 109 Station Wagon after a 15 year hiatus.
It has blue parabolic springs on the front & what look like heavy duty leaf springs on the back. The ride at the back end is pretty jarring (front seems ok - for a landy). It will get 99% road use with out massive loads - get used like a car really.

I've read through a number of threads on parabolic springs and they seem pretty variable in terms of quality.

Anyway, my question is thus: most suppliers are listing different springs for the rear of a SWB vs LWB. Is the difference purely the spring rate? ie the LWB ones are stiffer? or are there dimensional differences too?

It seems a little wayward while cornering - the soft tyre feeling (I've pumped the tyres up) - which I figure is the axles moving side to side. Could this be the case? Do folks fit Panard Rods (or other device) as a matter of course?

Many thanks,
Finn.

After the obvious "they all do that sir.." about the steering my view is that the parabolics on the front will lead to more wander. Most vehiciles sold with parabolics only have them on the rear, fronts are coils and panhard rod or wishbones. The STD rear LWB springs are designed to take a lot of load, Fact is that sooner or later you will load it up because its very handy. I run a LWB on the raod on std springs and I don't think they can be bettered on a LWB because of the higher loads.

Thanks for that Rob.
I never thought about it squirming around on the springs but that it exactly what it feels like.
I'll look at some Defender Panhard rods & Anti roll bars with a view to fabricating some brackets. All of which has become low priority as the electrical gremlins are emerging, the latest being the start solenoid seems to have an internal fault.

A series does not need panhard rods, anti roll bars or other such things.
The axle position is held only by the springs and any addition would result in them fighting each other and more strange actions.
The mix of springs on yours is not good, if going parabolic it should be all round with good gas shocks.
I would fit a set of new standard springs and shock's, removing a couple of the small leaves from the rear springs will soften the ride for a lightly loaded truck. Leaf springs also like some lubrication.

HI Tottot,
I have read some discussion that indicated that some of the larger Series 3's like military ambulances had anti roll bars fitted.
While I'm not going to be loading it up too much I will have my windsurfing gear on the roof which is probably about 100kg up high so, body roll will be pronounced.
The lower leaf that normally sits clear of the others at rest has the bumpers in the ends almost touching the others. I did consider cutting this off but will lubricate the springs in the first instance.
Thanks,
Finn

Your loaded landy will be no where near the weight of a military ambulance. I do think that from a safety point of view [ handling ] you need to go all parabolic or all standard leaf.
An all parabolic will give a smoother ride but more roll. The standard set up I found best for loaded work. Sounds like your old rear leaf's are well worn.

My LWB is an ex-mil and its conveted to a camper with a Dormobile roof and a roof rack. I run std springs because I want the least body roll (there's plenty already). I agree that pras on the front and std on the rear is likely to be dangerous, the front axle will have more laterial flex than the rear which means sideways forces will cause it to steer. As above all must be the same type. I'd go std all round, they are hard to beat on a LWB where there's enought weight to get them moving. My comment re panhard rods was that no manufacturer sells vehicles with paras on the front and no lateral linkeage and I suspect that's for a reason. The mil ambulance anti roll bars do look intersting, but I supect off road they would be pretty poor, if you went down that route you would have to make it demoutable for off road (you can get such a thing in the States - Jeeps have them). I use mine pretty much as it sounds like you intend to use yours and std springs all round work fine.
I see you are in the New Forest, go to the Beauleiu Land Rover day and take look at the various set ups and see how people get on with them.

Thanks for the comments.
I've attached some pictures of the suspension.
It looks like the front springs are 3 leaf parabolic (heavy duty) on 1 ton hangers.
The rear.... are they heavy duty? They appear to be on 1 ton hangers and there are extensions to the bump stops all round.
My research indicates I'd really need to get good parabolics or the are likely to sag pretty quickly, even some of the "British made" ones are suspect. Plus I need gas shocks, so I'm looking at a £1K to do the job properly. I don't have £1K to drop on suspension ATM so I think the plan is to replace the front springs with standard leaf spring and fit standard hangers all round.
On the rear spring I would have thought the lower leaf should be floating (overload) leaf, ie it only comes into play when the suspension is well into its travel. There are shackles (for want of a more appropriate term) holding them up against the remaining leaves so it looks like it is adding stiffness from the start.
So, can I remove the intermediate shackles in order to release the lower leaf and benefit from a initially softer spring?

Those ARE parabolic rears you have on your landy and they look in good order .
DO NOT remove the intermediate shackle that would be Dangerous.
The set up is correct if you think about it, the lower booster spring has no effect until its ends make contact with the leaf above.
Some good gas type dampers/shocks are needed to match the movement of parabolic springs and may well help with the handling along with all steering joints in good order.
Do not expect a 109 to drive like a modern car.

Parabolic's need no lubrication, they have Teflon pads between the leaves.

Thanks Tottot. Show's what little I know!
Are they heavy duty springs? Most of the ones I've seen advertised are 2 leaves up front & 3 leaves on the back.
The most modern vehicle I have ever owned is 1999 Fiat Ducato so, I'm not really too aware of how modern cars drive.
I gave the steering arms a good twist/push/pull and they didn't seem to have to have an alarming amount of play in the rod ends. Some have grease nipples so I will lube them.
I'll have a look at adjusting the steering box with a view to reducing the steering play at central position which is currently about 8 inches side to side. I remember my last Landy being a bit like this too & I needed to get "in sync" on the open road, but this is a bit excessive.

They are the right springs for 109. I don't think there are heavy duty parabolic's. They are not available unless made to order.
Eight inches is a lot, steering box can be adjusted but do not overtighten.
Also check steering rod ball joints the ones that goes to the relay at the front crossmember and check the relay it's self. Swivel housing pre load needs to be right. There should be no play in any ball joint.
The dampers look like old standard units. Because parabolics move ease to start [ bit like coil springs ] they can overheat standard dampers and need good gas ones to control them.

rob1miles said:

After the obvious "they all do that sir.." about the steering my view is that the parabolics on the front will lead to more wander. Most vehiciles sold with parabolics only have them on the rear, fronts are coils and panhard rod or wishbones. The STD rear LWB springs are designed to take a lot of load, Fact is that sooner or later you will load it up because its very handy. I run a LWB on the raod on std springs and I don't think they can be bettered on a LWB because of the higher loads.

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Personally never seen a vehicle with coils up front and parabolic rears. What ones are you referring too?

There are plenty of modern pick ups that use torsion bar front (not coil) and leaf rear (not parabolic). But that is somewhat different.

Santana PS-10, Iveco Massif, Land Rover 101FC all used parabolics front and rear.

Kooda said:

Anyway, my question is thus: most suppliers are listing different springs for the rear of a SWB vs LWB. Is the difference purely the spring rate? ie the LWB ones are stiffer? or are there dimensional differences too?

Click to expand...

I thought the rear 109 springs are longer, but would need to check. They would be a different spring rate too as the 109 has a much higher loading capacity.

Kooda said:

It seems a little wayward while cornering - the soft tyre feeling (I've pumped the tyres up) - which I figure is the axles moving side to side. Could this be the case? Do folks fit Panard Rods (or other device) as a matter of course?

Many thanks,
Finn.

Click to expand...

Leaf springs such as the setup on the 109 are of a hotchkiss design. You do not need a panhard rod. Wayward cornering could be many things. The biggest question is, do you have a point of reference? Have you driven any other Series Land Rover's, specifically 109's to compare to?

Parabolic springs will as a rule result in more lean, you could counter this with an anti-roll bar setup, but you would have to manufacture this yourself, as I don't believe there are any off the shelf options.

Parabolic should ride better than standard leaf packs, but are often quite a high spring rate so, may not ride well without load in the back. New shocks and bushes may also help here.

Any wayward steering is more likely to be the steering linkages/relay/box.

Land Rover built an experimental 2a in the 60's with independent front wish bone coils on the front and standard leaves on the rear. Then decided it was not worth the bother. It still survives somewhere.

tottot said:

The dampers look like old standard units.

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I agree with Tottot that the dampers need checking out - parabolics plus 1-ton shackles is a big lift over standard and they look a bit extended in the pic.
Extended bump stops are a good sign that the conversion was done well, plus it looks like you have some kind of extension on the front propshaft which is also a good sign, but you might need better dampers. And check the brake flexi's as well - if a previous owner left standard dampers on, the brake flexi's might be too short. Hopefully someone knows how long the 1-ton flexi's are so you can compare; if not, I'll get the tape measure out over the weekend.

I've now fixed the bulk of the electrical & cooling issues and have it running reliably so, I've had a chance to get more acquainted with the landy.
There is a receipt for the front parabolic springs but no mention of dampers. Attached are a couple of pic's of the dampers which look fairly ordinary but we've already established that I don't know what I'm looking at....



The play in the steering seems largely confined to the relay. This would be a fairly strait forward fix if it was not for the fine print "not for Stage 1 V8 109". Guess what I have? The front cross member on the Stage 1 is further forward so the relay bolts to the side of the chassis rather than through the cross member - see pic. I've called a couple of places and a replacement relay box is no longer available.
I can't find any info on adjusting the relay (only oil replacement) so I guess it isn't possible?
Can anyone tell me if the internals of this relay & the standard S2/3 relay are the same? Maybe just the outer casing is different? If so I could buy new a S2/3 and swap the internals over. It doesn't look to difficult other than dealing with the spring & a bit of faffing to make up the tool to reassemble it.
The other option would be to convert it to a S2/3 relay by adding bracket to the bottom to match the top bolt holes & a mounting plate. I would probably have to have the bottom mount machined to have a good fit around the body of the damper.




I did adjust the steering box but that made no difference to the play, just making it stiffer so I backed it off again. The power steering is grumbling constantly now (intermittently before) and squirting some highly aerated fluid of the vent hole in the reservoir, so that clearly needs bleeding. There is what looks like a hose tail on the steering box under & aft the adjuste but there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for opening it. The power steering gubbiins is on the top of the box where the steering column enters anyway so I doubt this is what I'm looking for anyway. I might try backing off one of the unions and see if I can get some air out like that. In my research I've not come across a power steering box like this one.


Below is the steering box from above.

Cant be sure but recon series 3 v8 did not come with power steering as standard. However at one time there were for sale power steering kits that were made to fit the Shorland armoured car which was Land Rover based.

That looks like a rare set up. It may be a case of doing the best you can with adjustment and researching parts as you may have to strip and repair it. The parts will be common with something but finding what can take ages.

tottot said:

Cant be sure but recon series 3 v8 did not come with power steering as standard. However at one time there were for sale power steering kits that were made to fit the Shorland armoured car which was Land Rover based.

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indeed were i worked in the 90s had a shed load of old scrapped series 3 v8 109 armoured landies from northern ireland they all had power steering fore runner to the snatch