Series 3 S3 2.25D Smoke!

RyanDay1 · Feb 12, 2016

Hi all, ive recently managed to get my s3 diesel rescue efforts to some success after starting her up for 1st time in 1yr 4 months! The last time it ran it had all old bits from where it sat for maybe a decade. Its got a whole new fuel system except for the injection pump. However, despite my excitement to rebuild it, its got a big smoke problem, always has, but i cant run it without a respirator on because the fumes are outrageous. To get it started i had to re-time up the pump and bleed the life out of it, it went like never before but if anyone has any ideas as to what any known causes for serious smoke (white and very unburnt fuelly smell) could be apart from bad injection timing it would be an amazing help!! Its got no issues with the throttle and revs, if thats anything to do with it... Thanks all!!!

Bobsticle · Feb 12, 2016

Mine was a stretched timing chain. Just not enough adjustment on the pump so new chain time. It still smokes but dont look so bad during the day. Its at night when the car behind illuminates all the crap.
Without a full rebuild I doubt I will get it any better but check rocker gaps and possibly injectors etc.

RyanDay1 · Feb 12, 2016

Bobsticle said:
Mine was a stretched timing chain. Just not enough adjustment on the pump so new chain time. It still smokes but dont look so bad during the day. Its at night when the car behind illuminates all the crap.
Without a full rebuild I doubt I will get it any better but check rocker gaps and possibly injectors etc.

Bad timing causing unburnt fuel then maybe? Might dare to have a look at the ol chain, cant say there are any visible gaps they could be very miniscule, and 1 out of 4 injectors is brand new, there seems to be a 3 on 1 off pattern to the smoke too? Which despite my doubts as theyre not near as fast as id expect the injectors to fire do seem to be suspicious when just 1 is brand new! (cylinder 3)

Land Raver · Feb 12, 2016

Before making pump adjustment it may be worth considering draining old fuel and replacing with quality fresh fuel.
Adjust tappets too. They seem to smoke a lot more in colder weather so get the engine nice and hot.

I remember when I first bought my Landy a few years ago in a November. I was convinced I had a major problem when starting from cold with smoke....and it stank of paraffin if left idling at cold. Spring came and it improved dramatically. Never failed an mot or had any advisory on it. I guess the point I'm making is that it's colder weather again so rather than make knee jerk actions, might be worth waiting for a bit of milder weather and take things from there.

divie · Feb 12, 2016

You have to start from basics, replace the chain then try and get hold of the proper timing tool to set the pump indicator mark.
Time the engine with a dial gauge on number one exhaust valve as the book. You now have somewhere to start, play with the pump timing by slackening the unions and moving the pump about 1mm at a time. Advance it (clockwise) until you get a bit of "diesel knock" then retard to lose the knock.
Can you get hold of an injector setting pump? I had injectors refurbished by a specialist and they where a disaster. They should pop off at 130 to 135 bar. Mine where anything from 140 to 165. With all the above set (on a rebuilt engine I will add) my engine was near enough smoke free. I also binned the silly butterfly flap in the inlet manifold that creates vacuum for the brake servo. At this age you won't find a good one, remove the butterfly/blank off the spindle position/remove the link to the throttle and fit an electric vacuum pump. About £80 and a couple of hours to fit wired via a relay from the brake light switch. With that lot done you should get very little smoke if your pump and engine are in reasonable order.

RyanDay1 · Feb 12, 2016

Land Raver said:
Before making pump adjustment it may be worth considering draining old fuel and replacing with quality fresh fuel.
Adjust tappets too. They seem to smoke a lot more in colder weather so get the engine nice and hot.

I remember when I first bought my Landy a few years ago in a November. I was convinced I had a major problem when starting from cold with smoke....and it stank of paraffin if left idling at cold. Spring came and it improved dramatically. Never failed an mot or had any advisory on it. I guess the point I'm making is that it's colder weather again so rather than make knee jerk actions, might be worth waiting for a bit of milder weather and take things from there.

True the last time running was september 14 and during that summer even with rough fuel parts would clear up a bit, just a bit after a while, however new diesel, fuel tank, hoses, lift pump, filter, oil without a mile on them, this morning i started a series 3 D at my college that hadnt run in 4 years, 10 years younger but that cleared up very quick! Bit jealous tbh...

Land Raver · Feb 12, 2016

Hopefully with a bit of time and effort, you might get her running good.

RyanDay1 · Feb 12, 2016

divie said:
You have to start from basics, replace the chain then try and get hold of the proper timing tool to set the pump indicator mark.
Time the engine with a dial gauge on number one exhaust valve as the book. You now have somewhere to start, play with the pump timing by slackening the unions and moving the pump about 1mm at a time. Advance it (clockwise) until you get a bit of "diesel knock" then retard to lose the knock.
Can you get hold of an injector setting pump? I had injectors refurbished by a specialist and they where a disaster. They should pop off at 130 to 135 bar. Mine where anything from 140 to 165. With all the above set (on a rebuilt engine I will add) my engine was near enough smoke free. I also binned the silly butterfly flap in the inlet manifold that creates vacuum for the brake servo. At this age you won't find a good one, remove the butterfly/blank off the spindle position/remove the link to the throttle and fit an electric vacuum pump. About £80 and a couple of hours to fit wired via a relay from the brake light switch. With that lot done you should get very little smoke if your pump and engine are in reasonable order.

Thanks for your help! My landy doesnt have that butterfly or the servo you speak of, its a 72, i worked on an 82 today that had all those gubbins on, i will try adjusting the pump 1st then look into the chain maybe, but it would not suprise me if it related to the 3 out of 4 very old very filthy injectors, any tell tale signs that theyre bad?

Blackburn · Feb 13, 2016

You can remove them from the block refix to pipe and look at the spray pattern.[probably best one at a time].
Be very careful not to get sprayed with the diesel as it will pierce your skin and cause lots of issues.

nickjaxe · Feb 13, 2016

When you say its pump smoke out...is it the most unbelievable amount you have ever seen...or just smoky...good reason to ask.

Nick.

RyanDay1 · Feb 14, 2016

nickjaxe said:
When you say its pump smoke out...is it the most unbelievable amount you have ever seen...or just smoky...good reason to ask.

Nick.

Hi Nick, gotta say its the most ive seen in person, maybe not extreme but its enough for me mum to moan that it wont do any good to my lungs, the trees, and fills the whole yard up with the smell and smoke to some degree, but only since its not moving anywhere, its not to the extreme that its obvious somethings terribly wrong it almost seems quite expected from the engines history! (being a farm decoration) but it is a bit much and puts you off running it for a good amount of time which right now is what it needs, getting hot, flushing gunk out, and generally exercising, since it hasnt run in over a year, and before that maybe up to 10 years

divie · Feb 14, 2016

Have you tried persevering with the smoke/complaints until it gets really hot ? It will need driving to get enough load on it to burn off the crap but try a high idle for an hour, just watch the temperature gauge. I have in the past had big smoke and it was just a dodgy injector; when it is running and warm try cracking an injector union one at a time to see if one does not make much difference to the running.. I did one for a mate which was just a misplaced injector seal, use a pencil to fish the sealing washers out and refit with new ones domed side up. Good luck.

Turboman · Feb 14, 2016

New oil,new fuel and filter, good blast down the motorway!

See if that clears it out!

If the old fuel has gummed up the injection system, gallon or two of petrol in the tank will deal.

RyanDay1 · Feb 14, 2016

divie said:
Have you tried persevering with the smoke/complaints until it gets really hot ? It will need driving to get enough load on it to burn off the crap but try a high idle for an hour, just watch the temperature gauge. I have in the past had big smoke and it was just a dodgy injector; when it is running and warm try cracking an injector union one at a time to see if one does not make much difference to the running.. I did one for a mate which was just a misplaced injector seal, use a pencil to fish the sealing washers out and refit with new ones domed side up. Good luck.

I will try get it nice and hot but gotta get the clutch bled out to get it moving, will also try slinging a little water in there when its hot to give a little steam clean! Excuse the air filter its temporary...

Turboman · Feb 14, 2016

RyanDay1 said:
I will try get it nice and hot but gotta get the clutch bled out to get it moving, will also try slinging a little water in there when its hot to give a little steam clean! Excuse the air filter its temporary...

Does the clutch actually need bleeding? Or has it just rusted up because it has been sat. Very common on long stored vehicles.
It is usually possible to free it up, we would tow start with a tractor, then foot on clutch and brake when going along. They usually free up.

RyanDay1 · Feb 14, 2016

Turboman said:
Does the clutch actually need bleeding? Or has it just rusted up because it has been sat. Very common on long stored vehicles.
It is usually possible to free it up, we would tow start with a tractor, then foot on clutch and brake when going along. They usually free up.

Yes it developed a leak on the slave so went to replace it but the previous lot wasnt the original, been replaced with probably something out of an earlier series but none of the hydraulic lines fit so ended having to sling the lot and shove in new master, lines and slave, but havent had it running till this week so will know whats going on!

Relative to the smoke i just put a little 2 stroke oil in the tank to see if it can loosen some bits up and burn some diesel better, not massive difference just yet but it seemed to make an improvement, will get to steaming soon when really hot

Turboman · Feb 14, 2016

RyanDay1 said:
Yes it developed a leak on the slave so went to replace it but the previous lot wasnt the original, been replaced with probably something out of an earlier series but none of the hydraulic lines fit so ended having to sling the lot and shove in new master, lines and slave, but havent had it running till this week so will know whats going on!

Relative to the smoke i just put a little 2 stroke oil in the tank to see if it can loosen some bits up and burn some diesel better, not massive difference just yet but it seemed to make an improvement, will get to steaming soon when really hot

OK, as you say, clutch will need bleeding.

Putting two stroke oil in the tank is a waste of time. It will never do any good, and may well do harm. Pure internet myth. No-one who has run a number of diesels for years ever does that.
Highly likely that the oil is causing your smoke issues, drain it out and put proper fuel in.

You may have other issues as well, but best plan is usually to try and get it running, and then daignose issues and fix, rather than wholesale replacement in a hit an miss manner.

Divies point about injectors is a a good one, those should be checked and serviced 40k miles, no-one bothers. When it is going, if still rough, pull them out and go to a fuel injection place, they will test and recon as required.

RyanDay1 · Feb 14, 2016

Turboman said:
OK, as you say, clutch will need bleeding.

Putting two stroke oil in the tank is a waste of time. It will never do any good, and may well do harm. Pure internet myth. No-one who has run a number of diesels for years ever does that.
Highly likely that the oil is causing your smoke issues, drain it out and put proper fuel in.

You may have other issues as well, but best plan is usually to try and get it running, and then daignose issues and fix, rather than wholesale replacement in a hit an miss manner.

Divies point about injectors is a a good one, those should be checked and serviced 40k miles, no-one bothers. When it is going, if still rough, pull them out and go to a fuel injection place, they will test and recon as required.

I'll wip em out and get em tested if it doesnt subside, which i doubt it will, it used to be very smokey a while ago, but that was when the crappy old sat parts were in it, now that its running with new fuel system except for 3/4 injectors and the distributor pump from the tank forward i would like to see it naturally clear, but clearly will need some tinkering!

Is there any way to double check the injection timing as i gather its a likely cause, either due to the pump timing or bad injectors, as i just retimed it all after having the pump off but wanna know i got it spot on!

Turboman · Feb 14, 2016

RyanDay1 said:
I'll wip em out and get em tested if it doesnt subside, which i doubt it will, it used to be very smokey a while ago, but that was when the crappy old sat parts were in it, now that its running with new fuel system except for 3/4 injectors and the distributor pump from the tank forward i would like to see it naturally clear, but clearly will need some tinkering!

Is there any way to double check the injection timing as i gather its a likely cause, either due to the pump timing or bad injectors, as i just retimed it all after having the pump off but wanna know i got it spot on!

That is a good plan with the sprayers, you will usually notice quite a difference in the way it runs from having recons.

Dont forget to get rid of the two stroke, you will find it undissolved in a red or green pool in the bottom of the tank, it doesnt dissolve in diesel, not reason it should, not formulated to!
It always reduces smoking when we have got it out of friends vehicles, many have been taken in by the myth.

Quite a few years since I have had one of them, iirc they dont have timing pins. If you are sure that you have set up the timing chain and its sprockets correctly, I think the final adjustment is just turning the pump on its mountings til it runs right. I would loosen the injector pipes first, not impossible to snap them. And make sure there are clear marks on the pump flange before you start, so you can go back where you were at the beginning.

divie · Feb 14, 2016

Keep at it you will get there in the end. It took me years to learn how to diagnose and sort diesel running issues.
Very satisfying when it all comes good.

Series 3 S3 2.25D Smoke!

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