Rocker Shaft

pos · May 18, 2008

No worries! I'm looking for a 200 tdi to transplant now anyway, the gasket has made no difference and it's not worth fitting new rings to the piston in the bore with the lowest compression because they've lasted no more than 2,000 miles.

-Pos

david451 · May 18, 2008

Sean said:
e probably is, at yer snotty attitude

encourage him and don't keep picking away at everything he says

good on yer pos

It's called constructive critisism not destructive, because if he were my apprentice I would tell him the same thing, at the same time giving the correct instruction of where he went wrong and what he should do next, and I think that you are unfair with that comment since my last words were constructive and supportive in that I was prepared to devote as much time he required to develop his skills, if he wanted, and advice on the best way to adjust the valve clearances. And I think he knows it.

I think that in fairness there are people on here that capitalize on this sort of thing but not me, I like a bit of bantar as well, but not the destructive sort.

david451 · May 18, 2008

pos said:
No worries! I'm looking for a 200 tdi to transplant now anyway, the gasket has made no difference and it's not worth fitting new rings to the piston in the bore with the lowest compression because they've lasted no more than 2,000 miles.

-Pos

Thought you said the bores and pistons were perfect pos, sure you aint givin in too easy, any sod can change an engine.

It could be as simple as you didn't hone the bores to get the glaze off or you fitted the rings wrong, not spacing them correctly, or you fitted standard rings and the ridge in the bore smashed the top ring, or, or ,or.

Probably offended you again, but see what I mean, you said the bores and pistons were perfect.

You want to go through a few things.

Sean · May 18, 2008

david451 said:
I like a bit of bantar as well, but not the destructive sort.

"Oh gees, you worry me"

"The guy seems lacking in even the basics"

"I think it's gona go woosh right over his head"

"A little knowledge is dangerous they say"

"Ehm, was it not you who posted this, mr I'm not thick or sumut"

"Reet pos stop bull****tin, rebuilt the engine my arse"

"can't make yer a mechanic but can teach yer a few basics if you want, got all the time in the world mate, by the time yer 19 yel be up to 1st year apprentice crash course, maybee yel chuck the ****e biology when yer leave school and do a real job mechanicing"

"So you're taking the huff then."

Pos does have a good way with words ......

"I'll only learn from my mistakes by trying things so stop digging at me. Considering you're a mechanic, you must have been in my shoes at one time and you will no doubt have learned everything that you know from someone older than you, someone who most probably wasn't being a patronising arse hole"

pos · May 18, 2008

By all means I will investigate a little further. I couldn't see the rings when I took the head off for obvious reasons, but there was no scoring on the bores and the glaze had not come back. The only thing that I can think of is that:

1) The bores have worn slightly oval (but which I can not see)
2) One of the compression rings or the oil scrape rings have broken

Still like the idea of a 200 tdi though, will see tomorrow!
-Pos

david451 · May 18, 2008

Sean said:
"Oh gees, you worry me"

"The guy seems lacking in even the basics"

"I think it's gona go woosh right over his head"

"A little knowledge is dangerous they say"

"Ehm, was it not you who posted this, mr I'm not thick or sumut"

"Reet pos stop bull****tin, rebuilt the engine my arse"

"can't make yer a mechanic but can teach yer a few basics if you want, got all the time in the world mate, by the time yer 19 yel be up to 1st year apprentice crash course, maybee yel chuck the ****e biology when yer leave school and do a real job mechanicing"

"So you're taking the huff then."

Pos does have a good way with words ......

"I'll only learn from my mistakes by trying things so stop digging at me. Considering you're a mechanic, you must have been in my shoes at one time and you will no doubt have learned everything that you know from someone older than you, someone who most probably wasn't being a patronising arse hole"

Just exactly what I said a minute ago taking the negatives and not focusing on the entire conversations, where advice was given, and offered.

You don't learn from your mistakes you learn from others, it's the fool that learns from his own and the wise man that learns from others.

I think you can see clearly from my last post that I offered advice at a level that would at least take him up to first year apprentice, in a crash course, and then hoped and sugested that he gave up biology and took up mechanicing. Hardly negative is it.

It was he that said do you think I am thick or summut, in a thread where previously he made comments and I refered him back to them.

Get a grip sean, stop twisting it you sound like and old maid

Oddie · May 18, 2008

Pos, GO FOR A TDI!!! You won't look back, and dunno if you saw me fred the other day but you really will pay for it in no time - especially as yer savvy enough to do the conversion yourself! (which you clearly are!)

Oddie · May 18, 2008

PS are you sure you haven't got a crack in one of the cylinders (4)?

david451 · May 18, 2008

pos said:
By all means I will investigate a little further. I couldn't see the rings when I took the head off for obvious reasons, but there was no scoring on the bores and the glaze had not come back. The only thing that I can think of is that:

1) The bores have worn slightly oval (but which I can not see)
2) One of the compression rings or the oil scrape rings have broken

Still like the idea of a 200 tdi though, will see tomorrow!
-Pos

The tdi is night and day, and it depends what you want from your project.

Don't know what your problem is but scraper rings really dont give back pressure issues, and if you stick a new ring down the bore it gives an indication of the wear, also you should have done that anyway just in case the rings were too big, if the ring gaps were too small the rings will not seal.

The rings you should have fitted have a section taken out of them to miss the ridge on the bore, spaced out so no gap overlapped, or ran in line with the gudgeon pin, and the piston groves cleaned out with a hacksaw blade, or a broken ring.

pos · May 18, 2008

david451 said:
The tdi is night and day, and it depends what you want from your project.

Don't know what your problem is but scraper rings really dont give back pressure issues, and if you stick a new ring down the bore it gives an indication of the wear, also you should have done that anyway just in case the rings were too big, if the ring gaps were too small the rings will not seal.

The rings you should have fitted have a section taken out of them to miss the ridge on the bore, spaced out so no gap overlapped, or ran in line with the gudgeon pin, and the piston groves cleaned out with a hacksaw blade, or a broken ring.

I've always fancied a 200 tdi really, but my 2.5 N/A is perfectly capable on the flat etc, so I didn't consider changing it. Now that I am having continuous problems with it (even after a rebuild and ywo head gasket changes), I am beginning to consider (as stated somewhere else) whether or not it is still a cost effective option to fix it.

For the sake of having a modified down pipe fabricated, I really don't think that th 200 tdi is going to be a bad option, but then again, what's to say that if I get my hands on one for £250, it wont be in just as bad a condition as my current engine? That's my line of thought at the moment.

What it really boils down to is wanting to keep my land rover on the whole because the chassis is exceptional considering its age and it has a distinctive character about it which I have grown to like. Putting a newer engine in (which I would no doubt strip and rebuild just for the sake of it) would not only almost double its value, it would make me much happier thinking that I'd be able to pull up really steep hills at about 40mph as opposed to 15mph!

I'll call the garage tomorrow and ask how much they want for one of their 200 tdi's and how much they'll give me back for my engine in return. If the price looks good I'll go with it and pay the extra on the insurance. If the cost is ridiculous, I'll strip my block down and give it one last attempt at repairing it.

As for the rings, when I tightened up the piston ring compression tool, the oil scraper and top compression ring gaps where lined up on the same side with the gudgeon pin, and the second compression ring was lined up at 180 degrees further around in line with the other side of the gudgeon pin. The grooves didn't need cleaning because I bought four new piston head assemblies complete with the rings (each of the original ones had cracked).

Just something that my Grandad has mentioned:
Could it possibly be something to do with my engine timing and recent cam belt change which is somehow causing the excessive crank case pressure?

Thanks again
-Pos

david451 · May 18, 2008

pos said:
I've always fancied a 200 tdi really, but my 2.5 N/A is perfectly capable on the flat etc, so I didn't consider changing it. Now that I am having continuous problems with it (even after a rebuild and ywo head gasket changes), I am beginning to consider (as stated somewhere else) whether or not it is still a cost effective option to fix it.

For the sake of having a modified down pipe fabricated, I really don't think that th 200 tdi is going to be a bad option, but then again, what's to say that if I get my hands on one for £250, it wont be in just as bad a condition as my current engine? That's my line of thought at the moment.

What it really boils down to is wanting to keep my land rover on the whole because the chassis is exceptional considering its age and it has a distinctive character about it which I have grown to like. Putting a newer engine in (which I would no doubt strip and rebuild just for the sake of it) would not only almost double its value, it would make me much happier thinking that I'd be able to pull up really steep hills at about 40mph as opposed to 15mph!

I'll call the garage tomorrow and ask how much they want for one of their 200 tdi's and how much they'll give me back for my engine in return. If the price looks good I'll go with it and pay the extra on the insurance. If the cost is ridiculous, I'll strip my block down and give it one last attempt at repairing it.

As for the rings, when I tightened up the piston ring compression tool, the oil scraper and top compression ring gaps where lined up on the same side with the gudgeon pin, and the second compression ring was lined up at 180 degrees further around in line with the other side of the gudgeon pin. The grooves didn't need cleaning because I bought four new piston head assemblies complete with the rings (each of the original ones had cracked).

Just something that my Grandad has mentioned:
Could it possibly be something to do with my engine timing and recent cam belt change which is somehow causing the excessive crank case pressure?

Thanks again
-Pos

If you lined up the gaps in line with the gudeon pins then that's your problem, because there is no skirt there the compression leaks down to the gudgeon pin and into the crankcase, if you lined them up elsewhere then the compression would have the entire length of the piston to leak past and it cant do it.

However you said also that you fitted new pistons complete with rings, were they standard pistons. Two reasons I ask this.

One, if your engine has been rebored at some time then your pistons are too small, and secondly new pistons would not have come with ridge dodger rings and if there is a ridge on the top of the bores then the top rings could be broken.

You should have taken a ring off and tried it in the bore, it would have thrown up a huge gap in the ring gap, however if you have your old pistons and the reciept check the top of the pistons for the size and compare it with the new ones you bought.

Timing does not cause back pressure, it's your pistons and rings.

What was the original fault that made you strip it.

david451 · May 18, 2008

david451 said:
If you lined up the gaps in line with the gudeon pins then that's your problem, because there is no skirt there the compression leaks down to the gudgeon pin and into the crankcase, if you lined them up elsewhere then the compression would have the entire length of the piston to leak past and it cant do it.

However you said also that you fitted new pistons complete with rings, were they standard pistons. Two reasons I ask this.

One, if your engine has been rebored at some time then your pistons are too small, and secondly new pistons would not have come with ridge dodger rings and if there is a ridge on the top of the bores then the top rings could be broken.

You should have taken a ring off and tried it in the bore, it would have thrown up a huge gap in the ring gap, however if you have your old pistons and the reciept check the top of the pistons for the size and compare it with the new ones you bought.

Timing does not cause back pressure, it's your pistons and rings.

What was the original fault that made you strip it.

Look before you do another thing to your vehicle, anything, go and buy a haynes manual, the rave cd will be too difficult for you. Then everytime you go to do something read the chapter first, and refer to it, and ask for advice and I will talk you through it. I told you that in my last thread before you gave me pelters.

Remember the engine will require a serious lifter to get it out, and you could be buying a plug.

If you have new pistons in there and they are the right ones, let's start again.

pos · May 19, 2008

The reason why I dismantled the engine in the first place was a serious lack of power and oil being forced out of everywhere. Now, I've just come back from a 50+ mile round trip and all I can say is my engine is running sweet as a nut (reaching a maximum of 72mph on flats, and a lowest of 32ish on a big hill). I've had my uncle (who was chief mechanic for a Renault Leeds garage before it was bought out by Evans Halshaw) over tonight and he said that I should expect some piston blow by with such an old engine, and told me that if it isn't burning oil (which I now don't think it is), and because it runs, drives and ticks over well, there's nothing to worry about.

On further inspection, with the breather pipe re-connected to the inlet manifold, with a torch on the exhaust to monitor the smoke, even when at full throttle there's no smoke, not blue nor white. There is a fair bit of pressure build up if I put my thumb over the breather pipe, but no oily residue or signs of oil being burnt by the engine.

I'll give it another week or so to see how it does before assessing whether or not to take the head back off and sort the pistons, but as far as I am now concerned, it's running well and it's not burning oil, but there is a lot of blow-by. I'll post a video by tea time (on Tuesday)

Should I really still be worrying?
-Pos

P.S. I have a Haynes manual and I think it's absolutely ****e. All it does is talk you through the stuff that you know how to do. It's when you get to something that makes you think "does this pop off or screw off or do I need to hit it with a huge hammer?" that it's of absolutely no help, it'll just say "remove thermostat" or "remove assembly" without actually telling you what's involved. The workshop manual is a step up in my opinion.

david451 · May 19, 2008

pos said:
The reason why I dismantled the engine in the first place was a serious lack of power and oil being forced out of everywhere. Now, I've just come back from a 50+ mile round trip and all I can say is my engine is running sweet as a nut (reaching a maximum of 72mph on flats, and a lowest of 32ish on a big hill). I've had my uncle (who was chief mechanic for a Renault Leeds garage before it was bought out by Evans Halshaw) over tonight and he said that I should expect some piston blow by with such an old engine, and told me that if it isn't burning oil (which I now don't think it is), and because it runs, drives and ticks over well, there's nothing to worry about.

On further inspection, with the breather pipe re-connected to the inlet manifold, with a torch on the exhaust to monitor the smoke, even when at full throttle there's no smoke, not blue nor white. There is a fair bit of pressure build up if I put my thumb over the breather pipe, but no oily residue or signs of oil being burnt by the engine.

I'll give it another week or so to see how it does before assessing whether or not to take the head back off and sort the pistons, but as far as I am now concerned, it's running well and it's not burning oil, but there is a lot of blow-by. I'll post a video by tea time (on Tuesday)

Should I really still be worrying?
-Pos

P.S. I have a Haynes manual and I think it's absolutely ****e. All it does is talk you through the stuff that you know how to do. It's when you get to something that makes you think "does this pop off or screw off or do I need to hit it with a huge hammer?" that it's of absolutely no help, it'll just say "remove thermostat" or "remove assembly" without actually telling you what's involved. The workshop manual is a step up in my opinion.

You need something to refer to pos, I never found them ****e, not great. I checked your previous posts, the compression tests can't be right for a ci engine, far too low, also if the pistons were all cracked then that's thermal cracking due to the engine running too hot, either a cooling problem or injectors.

If the rings are as you said then could be burning the sides of the pistons, and fooking up yer engine oil I suppose, what did yer uncle say.

pos · May 19, 2008

david451 said:
You need something to refer to pos, I never found them ****e, not great. I checked your previous posts, the compression tests can't be right for a ci engine, far too low, also if the pistons were all cracked then that's thermal cracking due to the engine running too hot, either a cooling problem or injectors.

If the rings are as you said then could be burning the sides of the pistons, and fooking up yer engine oil I suppose, what did yer uncle say.

Funnily enough he started saying the same kind of things as you, mentioning one of his apprentices who filled a cars engine oil up as opposed to draining it (therefore doubling the quantity of oil), which then started to run on its own oil when they had it up on a hydraulic lift ticking over. They had to wait until the lift lowered (and you know how slow they are), before they could whack it into fifth stamp on the brakes and try to stall the thing.

Anyways, he did think that there was a lot of blow by, but not that much for such an old hard worked engine, even if it has new piston rings etc. He said that I shouldn't really be worrying about it, generally working on the basis that there was no oil in the air being blown out of the breather pipe and because of the fact that the engine runs great.

He asked how much oil it was using, to which I replied "none really", so all he said to that is don't worry.

Then, because I was still convinced that I had a big problem he showed me signs of a similar amount of breathing on my Dads Citroen zx (1.4i), by unclipping the breather pipe from the rocker cover, ad to my surprise, there was a similar amount.

So overall, I'm not too concerned now. I will however, still be looking into a 200tdi and the costs involved this afternoon.

-Pos

denis the menace · May 19, 2008

David I too changed all my pistons and rings at the same time pos did. However as to your comment re lining up the ring gaps, the workshop manual stated line up the oil ring with the gudgen pin, then space the others equaly around the piston without having any gap on the power stroke side of the bore. So I set one gap at 90 degrees to the gudgen pin and the top ring in line with the other side of the gudgen pin ???? got the same prob with blow back still, but I have the breather in an old redbull can, but have some oil blowing out of the distick tube. Still lacks power uphills but I have put that down to being an NA.

david451 · May 19, 2008

denis the menace said:
David I too changed all my pistons and rings at the same time pos did. However as to your comment re lining up the ring gaps, the workshop manual stated line up the oil ring with the gudgen pin, then space the others equaly around the piston without having any gap on the power stroke side of the bore. So I set one gap at 90 degrees to the gudgen pin and the top ring in line with the other side of the gudgen pin ???? got the same prob with blow back still, but I have the breather in an old redbull can, but have some oil blowing out of the distick tube. Still lacks power uphills but I have put that down to being an NA.

Perhaps you miss-read it the gudgeon pin was only a starting point and not actually directly in line, to be honest I have never lined any rings up with the gudgeon pin, and have spaced them out around the piston without ever having any problems, if they are all at the one side does that not lend to it being easier for the compression to leak through them.

A couple of years ago I was at the scania training centre doing engines and we built a couple and no mention of them being on the thrust side, but spaced around the piston evenly excluding the gudgeon pin. These were articulated pistons but still the same principle.

I have also fitted rings on a few occasions and if the piston groves are ok, no wear, and the bores are ok and honed then they tend to run for ages, but make sure the rings are a good fit in the bore first. If they are too tight you have to grind a bit off them to let them work.

And lastly as I mentioned to pos, if the rings are standard then if there is a ridge on the bore, and there most likely will then the top ring will get broke when it hits it, the old ring made the ridge and is worn so it misses it, so you get a top ring with a grove out of the top edge to avoid it.

the both of you got pistons and rings, did you get the size off the old pistons or just opt for standard, be interesting to see if they are the same size. I asked pos to check but he never came back. I like to take a piston to the guy and get him to size it.

david451 · May 20, 2008

david451 said:
Perhaps you miss-read it the gudgeon pin was only a starting point and not actually directly in line, to be honest I have never lined any rings up with the gudgeon pin, and have spaced them out around the piston without ever having any problems, if they are all at the one side does that not lend to it being easier for the compression to leak through them.

A couple of years ago I was at the scania training centre doing engines and we built a couple and no mention of them being on the thrust side, but spaced around the piston evenly excluding the gudgeon pin. These were articulated pistons but still the same principle.

I have also fitted rings on a few occasions and if the piston groves are ok, no wear, and the bores are ok and honed then they tend to run for ages, but make sure the rings are a good fit in the bore first. If they are too tight you have to grind a bit off them to let them work.

And lastly as I mentioned to pos, if the rings are standard then if there is a ridge on the bore, and there most likely will then the top ring will get broke when it hits it, the old ring made the ridge and is worn so it misses it, so you get a top ring with a grove out of the top edge to avoid it.

the both of you got pistons and rings, did you get the size off the old pistons or just opt for standard, be interesting to see if they are the same size. I asked pos to check but he never came back. I like to take a piston to the guy and get him to size it.

Ok here is the proper way to do it,

Top ring , 35-45 degrees away from pin hole

2nd ring, 180 degrees oposite from top grove

Oil ring, 90 degrees from pin and 180 degees from each other

Oil expander, anywhere, however keep the expander gaps away from the rail gaps. If you dont it kind of falls apart, but it's obvious.

The most important thing you should have done is size the rings in the bore at the base.

pos · May 20, 2008

david451 said:
I asked pos to check but he never came back. I like to take a piston to the guy and get him to size it.

Oh sorry, yes the pistons I took out were standard, so I replaced them with standard sized britpart pistons complete with rings. I did ask about 'ridge dodgers', but the garage told me that I wouldn't really need them, and that I would struggle to get hold of them.

My bores only had a very slight ridge (barely noticeable) and the top ring doesn't look to have broken on any of the pistons so should be alright!

-Pos

david451 · May 20, 2008

pos said:
Oh sorry, yes the pistons I took out were standard, so I replaced them with standard sized britpart pistons complete with rings. I did ask about 'ridge dodgers', but the garage told me that I wouldn't really need them, and that I would struggle to get hold of them.

My bores only had a very slight ridge (barely noticeable) and the top ring doesn't look to have broken on any of the pistons so should be alright!

-Pos

Dont know if that is reliable enough, do you still have the old pistons, and is there not a size next to std, I think the pistons might have been graded, but I might be wrong.

Also you won't be able to see a broken ring with the piston in the bore.

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