Re: Turbo squeel

Mine also makes a slight noise, however it hasn't developed any more in 6
months. Just incase already sourced a servisable spare, so only time will
tell it it ever gets used. Must admit I havn't heard much to say that the
TD5 has a suspect torbo fitted, so thought mine was a one off.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My TD5 has developed a squeel from the turbo when accelerating. It started
> about 6 months ago, and I guess has got a little worse over this time. Has
> anyone a similar experience? I was wondering how long I can carry on like
> this before I need to get it fixed (£500+)?
>
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ON that topic, what it your switching off proceedure. I have a 300tdi
and I try to religeously run it for at least a few seconds (10-20) if
I have just puttered into a parking, but if I have been going some and
don't have much slow down room, like coming off a freeway into a
garage, then I usually let it run for a good minute or so.

I know most salespeople when selling a turbodiesel will tell you that
running your turbo down is old school and you don't need to do that on
a modern car. I think that is a load of kak.

In South Africa turbo diesels have only recently become popular - in
the last five to seven years I would say - and so a lot of people that
are used to thrashing their 3 series beemer or whatever, are now
buying diesel wagons.

Because of our somewhat unique propensity for speedy and agressive
driving and high altitude, the turbos work very hard and are then
immediately shut down. I know the 320d bmw blows more turbos here then
just about anything else, any vehicle with a turbo seems to come in
for a fair bit of stick.

What are the opionions of the group?

Regards
Stephen

On 2006-01-26, fanie <[email protected]> wrote:

> What are the opionions of the group?

I don't bother to idle the engine any more as the reasons for idling
the engine really only apply if you are revving it under load, or
running it so hard that it glows red. Driving normally and the usual
parking of the car gives the turbo easily enough time to stop
spinning, and I've never seen my landy get so hot for me to worry
about the oil-baking problem. There are cars that I would worry more,
but my landy and my audi 1.9TDi aren't among them. Some cars (e.g. my
audi) now claim to have a thermionic oil circulating system that stops
oil sitting in the turbo to bake. I'd regard sitting there for a
minute with the engine running as completely excessive.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

fanie wrote:
> ON that topic, what it your switching off proceedure. I have a 300tdi
> and I try to religeously run it for at least a few seconds (10-20) if
> I have just puttered into a parking, but if I have been going some and
> don't have much slow down room, like coming off a freeway into a
> garage, then I usually let it run for a good minute or so.

> What are the opionions of the group?

Coming off a freeway shouldn't be an issue - as the engine's not doing a
lot of work on level ground (even at speed) so EGT and turbo temperature
should be reasonable - enough idling to let the turbo slow is probably
all that's necessary, say 10-15 secs.

Conversely if you've been working it hard (eg towing uphill) a cooling
period of a minute or so will be beneficial.

That said, modern turbochargers with water cooled bearing housings are
much less prone to failure from excessive heat anyway, so the problem is
far less severe than with older vehicles.


--
EMB

In message <[email protected]>
Ian Rawlings <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 2006-01-26, fanie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > What are the opionions of the group?
>
> I don't bother to idle the engine any more as the reasons for idling
> the engine really only apply if you are revving it under load, or
> running it so hard that it glows red. Driving normally and the usual
> parking of the car gives the turbo easily enough time to stop
> spinning, and I've never seen my landy get so hot for me to worry
> about the oil-baking problem. There are cars that I would worry more,
> but my landy and my audi 1.9TDi aren't among them. Some cars (e.g. my
> audi) now claim to have a thermionic oil circulating system that stops
> oil sitting in the turbo to bake. I'd regard sitting there for a
> minute with the engine running as completely excessive.
>

There's a huge yellow label on the dash of Pinzgauler's (sp?) -
"Allow to idle for 2 mins before turning off" (or words to that
effect).

A new concept in warfare!

Getting back on topic - my 200Tdi has had turbo wine for about
20,000 miles, but I'm NOT suggesting that my approach is correct....

Richard (Waiting for the bang)
--
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On 2006-01-26, beamendsltd <[email protected]> wrote:

> There's a huge yellow label on the dash of Pinzgauler's (sp?) -
> "Allow to idle for 2 mins before turning off" (or words to that
> effect).

Hehe, I wonder if that's the older ones with the air-cooled petrol
engines or the newer ones with the Golf diesel engine in it. I'd have
thought that the Golf diesel would be modern enough to not need
idling, and the air-cooled engine might need the fan for a bit longer
to bring the temp down.

> Getting back on topic - my 200Tdi has had turbo wine for about
> 20,000 miles, but I'm NOT suggesting that my approach is correct....

I wonder what turbo whine sounds like, given that they whine anyway as
part of normal operation. Obviously describing it in a newsgroup
isn't really possible....

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2006-01-26, beamendsltd <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> There's a huge yellow label on the dash of Pinzgauler's (sp?) -
>> "Allow to idle for 2 mins before turning off" (or words to that
>> effect).
>
> Hehe, I wonder if that's the older ones with the air-cooled petrol
> engines or the newer ones with the Golf diesel engine in it. I'd have
> thought that the Golf diesel would be modern enough to not need
> idling, and the air-cooled engine might need the fan for a bit longer
> to bring the temp down.

Hmmm... Pinzgauer's we had were not Golf engined, but they were a vw sourced
5-cylinder diesel, I'm sure.

>> Getting back on topic - my 200Tdi has had turbo wine for about
>> 20,000 miles, but I'm NOT suggesting that my approach is correct....
>
> I wonder what turbo whine sounds like, given that they whine anyway as
> part of normal operation. Obviously describing it in a newsgroup
> isn't really possible....

My bmw 330d had a bit of whine from the turbo occasionally, mainly in cold
weather so I suspected some sort of resonance issue based on air density
change. Was never loud enough to bother me and it always went fine, so
ignored it!
Badger.

fanie came up with the following;:
> ON that topic, what it your switching off proceedure. I have a 300tdi
> and I try to religeously run it for at least a few seconds (10-20) if
> I have just puttered into a parking, but if I have been going some and
> don't have much slow down room, like coming off a freeway into a
> garage, then I usually let it run for a good minute or so.
>
> I know most salespeople when selling a turbodiesel will tell you that
> running your turbo down is old school and you don't need to do that on
> a modern car. I think that is a load of kak.
>
> In South Africa turbo diesels have only recently become popular - in
> the last five to seven years I would say - and so a lot of people that
> are used to thrashing their 3 series beemer or whatever, are now
> buying diesel wagons.
>
> Because of our somewhat unique propensity for speedy and agressive
> driving and high altitude, the turbos work very hard and are then
> immediately shut down. I know the 320d bmw blows more turbos here then
> just about anything else, any vehicle with a turbo seems to come in
> for a fair bit of stick.
>
> What are the opionions of the group?

I'd agree to some extent, but not to the degree that you do.

If I've been towing the caravan or horse box (every weekend virtually all
year round) then I let it idle for a while, but don't really time it, just
while I gather my house keys, wallet, phone, sat-nav etc etc and get the
kids out. If I've been driving solo round town or poottling about I don't
worry about it at all.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
ebay 4606797992

On or around Thu, 26 Jan 2006 08:22:12 +0200, fanie
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>ON that topic, what it your switching off proceedure. I have a 300tdi
>and I try to religeously run it for at least a few seconds (10-20) if
>I have just puttered into a parking, but if I have been going some and
>don't have much slow down room, like coming off a freeway into a
>garage, then I usually let it run for a good minute or so.
>
>I know most salespeople when selling a turbodiesel will tell you that
>running your turbo down is old school and you don't need to do that on
>a modern car. I think that is a load of kak.
>

I'm inclined to agree - but I reckon a minute is probably overcooking it.
driving up at high revs and turning off leaves the turbo still spinning and
the pressure oil feed not working any more, which is the argument against
it. But I doubt the turbo spins at high speed for more than 10 seconds or
so after coming back to idle, if that.

Ages ago, Commer made some 2-stroke diesel engines (and Foden, I think, but
the comment pertains to the Commer) for lorries. In those days lorry
engines were such as the 5LW Gardner and the AEC 690 which were flat out at
about 2500 revs and normally pulled about 1800 or less, and had huge
capacity cooling systems to cope with an engine that wasn't prone to
overheat.

The Commer was much faster running and hotter than the typical engine of the
day and quite a number got broken 'cos people were getting it hot running at
at speed and then pulling up and switching off. The coolant then stopped
circulating and uneven colling warped or cracked the heads. If left to idle
for a few minutes to cool down, they were fine.

hens-teeth territory now. I did see a (preserved) 2-stroke Foden on the
road a year or so ago, makes a marvellous noise, but not in the same class
as a "Deltic".

If you google, theres a very anoraky site with recorded train noises
including Deltics.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

On or around Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:00:10 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>There's a huge yellow label on the dash of Pinzgauler's (sp?) -
>"Allow to idle for 2 mins before turning off" (or words to that
>effect).

that may be more about engine cooling than turbos, though

>A new concept in warfare!
>
>Getting back on topic - my 200Tdi has had turbo wine for about
>20,000 miles, but I'm NOT suggesting that my approach is correct....

Once, when I were an anoraky trainspotter, I was standing at Paddington
station watching an intercity 125 (AKA HST), which runs a Paxman Valentia
V12 turbo diesel, depart. So were some other simialr types.

Due to the nature of the transmission, as it pulls off it revs up to fairly
high revs, and this particular one produced a scream from its turbo which
must've been audible at least all over the station, and probably for about
half a mile around. Still seemed to be running though. Sundry comments
were made about how long for.

some turbos are just noisy... Although the sudden appearance of noise or a
sudden increase needs looking at.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

EMB wrote:
> fanie wrote:
>> ON that topic, what it your switching off proceedure. I have a 300tdi
>> and I try to religeously run it for at least a few seconds (10-20) if
>> I have just puttered into a parking, but if I have been going some
>> and don't have much slow down room, like coming off a freeway into a
>> garage, then I usually let it run for a good minute or so.
>
>> What are the opionions of the group?
>
> Coming off a freeway shouldn't be an issue - as the engine's not
> doing a lot of work on level ground (even at speed) so EGT and turbo
> temperature should be reasonable - enough idling to let the turbo
> slow is probably all that's necessary, say 10-15 secs.
>
> Conversely if you've been working it hard (eg towing uphill) a cooling
> period of a minute or so will be beneficial.
>
> That said, modern turbochargers with water cooled bearing housings are
> much less prone to failure from excessive heat anyway, so the problem
> is far less severe than with older vehicles.

I would agree with that and add that the water is pumped electrically
through the turbo on modern BMW [and other] engines for quite a while after
shut-down.
The main danger these days is from stalling a hard worked engine or shutting
down straight away before the turbo has spinned down [those 10 seconds of
idleing are vital in some circumstances] because once the engine is killed
no oil is forced through those bearings. Restart a stalled hot engine with
no delay.

Huw

Ian Rawlings wrote:

> I wonder what turbo whine sounds like, given that they whine anyway as
> part of normal operation. Obviously describing it in a newsgroup
> isn't really possible....

If the whine rises in pitch and sounds more like a whistling it's not
generally a good sign.



--
EMB

Huw wrote:

> The main danger these days is from stalling a hard worked engine or shutting
> down straight away before the turbo has spinned down [those 10 seconds of
> idleing are vital in some circumstances] because once the engine is killed
> no oil is forced through those bearings. Restart a stalled hot engine with
> no delay.

Or add an oil accumulator to the turbo oil feed to keep oiling it after
shutdown.


--
EMB

In message <[email protected]>
Ian Rawlings <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 2006-01-26, beamendsltd <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > There's a huge yellow label on the dash of Pinzgauler's (sp?) -
> > "Allow to idle for 2 mins before turning off" (or words to that
> > effect).
>
> Hehe, I wonder if that's the older ones with the air-cooled petrol
> engines or the newer ones with the Golf diesel engine in it. I'd have
> thought that the Golf diesel would be modern enough to not need
> idling, and the air-cooled engine might need the fan for a bit longer
> to bring the temp down.
>
> > Getting back on topic - my 200Tdi has had turbo wine for about
> > 20,000 miles, but I'm NOT suggesting that my approach is correct....
>
> I wonder what turbo whine sounds like, given that they whine anyway as
> part of normal operation. Obviously describing it in a newsgroup
> isn't really possible....
>

Rather like the sound a wave makes when going back down a shingle
beach - but constant... and loud! It sounds exactly like a
supercharger on a large Sulzer diesel engine (e.g. BR Class 47).
The Garret turbos on LR's might make a slight "whine" in normal
operation, but it shouldn't describable as noisy.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On or around Thu, 26 Jan 2006 09:00:10 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >There's a huge yellow label on the dash of Pinzgauler's (sp?) -
> >"Allow to idle for 2 mins before turning off" (or words to that
> >effect).
>
> that may be more about engine cooling than turbos, though
>
> >A new concept in warfare!
> >
> >Getting back on topic - my 200Tdi has had turbo wine for about
> >20,000 miles, but I'm NOT suggesting that my approach is correct....
>
> Once, when I were an anoraky trainspotter, I was standing at Paddington
> station watching an intercity 125 (AKA HST), which runs a Paxman Valentia
> V12 turbo diesel, depart. So were some other simialr types.
>
> Due to the nature of the transmission, as it pulls off it revs up to fairly
> high revs, and this particular one produced a scream from its turbo which
> must've been audible at least all over the station, and probably for about
> half a mile around. Still seemed to be running though. Sundry comments
> were made about how long for.
>

HST's are supercharged, not turbocharged. Ususually for for railway
applications they only have 2 stages of field conversion (the winding
on the traction motors are dynamically connected to give "electrical
gears" - most BR Diesel Electrics have between 6 and 10) and the motors
can handle larger than average currents* so the driver can give it
pretty much full throttle from the off without tripping out. A Class
47, for example, has the red line at 8,500 amps and the driver has
to be careful with the throttle when moving off or everything comes
to a rather embarrassing halt. Pulling a 2,000 ton stone train with
an HST power car would require terminal patience with the throttle
though - in fact I doubt it could get it moving, whereas a Class 37
with the same 1750 hp could do it easily, if a bit slowly. Class 33's
have a neat trick of re-synchornising all 4 traction motors when a
button is pressed, giving them amazing ability on slippery rails that
would stop other engines - very handy in Whiteball Tunnel coming out
of Taunton with 940 tons of Avtur for the RAF at Tiverton (now gone).

* except the second batch that GEC built - they tried to save money.....

> some turbos are just noisy... Although the sudden appearance of noise or a
> sudden increase needs looking at.
>

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
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In message <[email protected]>
"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:

> EMB wrote:
> > fanie wrote:
> >> ON that topic, what it your switching off proceedure. I have a 300tdi
> >> and I try to religeously run it for at least a few seconds (10-20) if
> >> I have just puttered into a parking, but if I have been going some
> >> and don't have much slow down room, like coming off a freeway into a
> >> garage, then I usually let it run for a good minute or so.
> >
> >> What are the opionions of the group?
> >
> > Coming off a freeway shouldn't be an issue - as the engine's not
> > doing a lot of work on level ground (even at speed) so EGT and turbo
> > temperature should be reasonable - enough idling to let the turbo
> > slow is probably all that's necessary, say 10-15 secs.
> >
> > Conversely if you've been working it hard (eg towing uphill) a cooling
> > period of a minute or so will be beneficial.
> >
> > That said, modern turbochargers with water cooled bearing housings are
> > much less prone to failure from excessive heat anyway, so the problem
> > is far less severe than with older vehicles.
>
> I would agree with that and add that the water is pumped electrically
> through the turbo on modern BMW [and other] engines for quite a while after
> shut-down.
> The main danger these days is from stalling a hard worked engine or shutting
> down straight away before the turbo has spinned down [those 10 seconds of
> idleing are vital in some circumstances] because once the engine is killed
> no oil is forced through those bearings. Restart a stalled hot engine with
> no delay.
>

And indeed the "bearings" arn't really, they are oil bearings that
rely on the oil to work without damage.

> Huw
>
>

Richard

--
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Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
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On or around Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:17:05 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>> Once, when I were an anoraky trainspotter, I was standing at Paddington
>> station watching an intercity 125 (AKA HST), which runs a Paxman Valentia
>> V12 turbo diesel, depart. So were some other simialr types.
>>
>HST's are supercharged, not turbocharged.

I was fairly sure they were turbos - they're a different class of diesel
engine, effectively, almost a high-speed diesel rather than the medium-speed
ones as used in most diesel engines except deltics.

Wikiepedia says "The HST was the first high speed train in Britain: that is,
the first train to travel at 125 mph (200 km/h). Its trade name was
'Inter-City 125', later changed to Intercity 125, and it was colloquially
known as a 'Screamer', referring to the loud screaming noise made by the
Napier turbocharger of the train's 2,250 bhp (1,678 kW) Paxman 'Valenta'
engines"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_Train

not that they're guranteed to be right. I didn't think they were quite that
high output originally.

'ere, this one's interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR-Maglev

> Class 33's
>have a neat trick of re-synchornising all 4 traction motors when a
>button is pressed, giving them amazing ability on slippery rails that
>would stop other engines - very handy in Whiteball Tunnel coming out
>of Taunton with 940 tons of Avtur for the RAF at Tiverton (now gone).

wot, like traction control for trains? neat.

Actually I've long pondered the possibility of building a miniature version
osf an diesel-electric train transmission for a 4x4. Probably using a 415V
3-phase generator and 4x AC motors, one for each wheel. Using AC motors
would get access to easy speed control, since speed controllers for AC
motors are commonplace nowadays.

Trouble is, it'd probably end up rather heavier than a normal gearbox.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"My centre is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent.
I shall attack. - Marshal Foch (1851 - 1929)

On or around Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:17:05 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>And indeed the "bearings" arn't really, they are oil bearings that
>rely on the oil to work without damage.

yeah, but then so are the main bearings in the engine...run 'em without oil
and they fail PDQ.

Same argument applies to not revving the nuts off a turbo engine from a cold
start - let the oil start circulating properly first.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"My centre is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent.
I shall attack. - Marshal Foch (1851 - 1929)

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:17:05 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>> Once, when I were an anoraky trainspotter, I was standing at Paddington
>>> station watching an intercity 125 (AKA HST), which runs a Paxman
>>> Valentia
>>> V12 turbo diesel, depart. So were some other simialr types.
>>>
>>HST's are supercharged, not turbocharged.
>
> I was fairly sure they were turbos - they're a different class of diesel
> engine, effectively, almost a high-speed diesel rather than the
> medium-speed
> ones as used in most diesel engines except deltics.
>
> Wikiepedia says "The HST was the first high speed train in Britain: that
> is,
> the first train to travel at 125 mph (200 km/h). Its trade name was
> 'Inter-City 125', later changed to Intercity 125, and it was colloquially
> known as a 'Screamer', referring to the loud screaming noise made by the
> Napier turbocharger of the train's 2,250 bhp (1,678 kW) Paxman 'Valenta'
> engines"
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_Train
>
> not that they're guranteed to be right. I didn't think they were quite
> that
> high output originally.
>
> 'ere, this one's interesting:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR-Maglev
>
>> Class 33's
>>have a neat trick of re-synchornising all 4 traction motors when a
>>button is pressed, giving them amazing ability on slippery rails that
>>would stop other engines - very handy in Whiteball Tunnel coming out
>>of Taunton with 940 tons of Avtur for the RAF at Tiverton (now gone).
>
> wot, like traction control for trains? neat.
>
> Actually I've long pondered the possibility of building a miniature
> version
> osf an diesel-electric train transmission for a 4x4. Probably using a
> 415V
> 3-phase generator and 4x AC motors, one for each wheel. Using AC motors
> would get access to easy speed control, since speed controllers for AC
> motors are commonplace nowadays.
>
> Trouble is, it'd probably end up rather heavier than a normal gearbox.

Yebbut you could power the whole shebang with one of the finest powerplants
ever produced (IMO), a napier deltic! What a sound, what a rush! The only
diesel ever made that is as plesent to listen to as a V8 petrol lump! ;-)
Badger.

In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On or around Thu, 26 Jan 2006 13:17:05 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >> Once, when I were an anoraky trainspotter, I was standing at Paddington
> >> station watching an intercity 125 (AKA HST), which runs a Paxman Valentia
> >> V12 turbo diesel, depart. So were some other simialr types.
> >>
> >HST's are supercharged, not turbocharged.
>
> I was fairly sure they were turbos - they're a different class of diesel
> engine, effectively, almost a high-speed diesel rather than the medium-speed
> ones as used in most diesel engines except deltics.
>
> Wikiepedia says "The HST was the first high speed train in Britain: that is,
> the first train to travel at 125 mph (200 km/h). Its trade name was
> 'Inter-City 125', later changed to Intercity 125, and it was colloquially
> known as a 'Screamer', referring to the loud screaming noise made by the
> Napier turbocharger of the train's 2,250 bhp (1,678 kW) Paxman 'Valenta'
> engines"
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_Train
>
> not that they're guranteed to be right. I didn't think they were quite that
> high output originally.
>

It could be the second batch were different - certainly the first batch
were set up the same for their use in the RN's conventional submarines
(the Valenta engine had been round for quite a while).

> 'ere, this one's interesting:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR-Maglev
>
> > Class 33's
> >have a neat trick of re-synchornising all 4 traction motors when a
> >button is pressed, giving them amazing ability on slippery rails that
> >would stop other engines - very handy in Whiteball Tunnel coming out
> >of Taunton with 940 tons of Avtur for the RAF at Tiverton (now gone).
>
> wot, like traction control for trains? neat.

Indeed, it's a pity Crompton/Parkinson pulled out of the market - the
Class 33 had some neat features and are very reliable - even the Southern
Reigion couldn't break them!

>
> Actually I've long pondered the possibility of building a miniature version
> osf an diesel-electric train transmission for a 4x4. Probably using a 415V
> 3-phase generator and 4x AC motors, one for each wheel. Using AC motors
> would get access to easy speed control, since speed controllers for AC
> motors are commonplace nowadays.
>
> Trouble is, it'd probably end up rather heavier than a normal gearbox.
>

The bloke who tried to be the programme excentric in the latter days
of Tomorrows World has few diesel electric engines on his garden
railway (6" guage or something). "Noisey" was the usual comment, but he'd
be able to tell you the pit-falls. Mind you, I seem to recall at least
one major car maker was looking at this sort of thing a few years back.

Richard

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