Re: switching to synthetic oils

"Mr.Nice." <mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I read in a book that synthetic oils reduce engine wear to virtually
> nil (got to be a good thing).

>
> My 1984 110 has done around 230k miles (2.5 n/a diesel engine).


All oils of suitable grade and changed within its limit reduces engine wear
to virtually nothing, otherwise your engine would not have lasted 50,000
miles let alone 230k.







> When I first got it I put 15w40 mineral oil in it. at the last oil
> change I tried 20w50 mineral oil (API=SF/CC).
>
> Worth noting that in around 5000 miles on the 20w50 the engine has not
> noticably used any oil.

It would be a good idea if you changed to an appropriate grade for your
engine. That is not it. You need an oil with a current specification not API
CC which has been obsolete for two decades. Might I suggest API CH4 which
provides everything your engine needs in terms of contaminant handling and
long service life. Believe me your engine is one of the worse ever for
chucking **** into the oil. Even using CH4 oil, the absolute maximum between
changes should not exceed 5000 miles. This should not be exceeded even by a
synthetic diesel specific oil due to the soot load in the oil. It therefore
follows that a synthetic oil is a waste of money in this engine as none
provide any advantage over a good mineral oil. Also 15w/40 is the
appropriate viscosity for your engine at this mileage, or any other mileage
come to that.


>
> My question is...
> Would it be a good idea to switch to a thinner fully (or semi)
> synthetic oil?

No


>
> Would a thinner oil lead to me springing leaks on such an old worn
> engine?

Are you saying that it doesn't leak already?

>
> Would there be any benefits from using a thinner synthetic oil?
>
> Should I stop talking such rubbish and use the 20w50 again?

I won't answer the first part of this question but your 20w/50 appears to be
inappropriate from the specification you have provided. If you use this,
expect severe engine sludge at an early date.



>
> Usually I drive around rough terrain on dartmoor and bodmin moor with
> country roads in between, however in january I'm driving up to
> scotland which will be a round-trip of, all-in, 2000 miles in a week,
> in winter, would the thickness of the 20w50 cause any problems?

Only in cold weather cold starts. If you leave it in the engine too long
this situation will result in a seized engine. A poor oil from the detergent
point of view will thicken due to the soot load very quickely. I have found
that a standard oil of API CD or CE thickens frighteningly in mine by 4000
miles yet a CH4 oil shows no sign of thickening at 5000 miles, both being of
short journies with many cold starts and some bursts of heavy towing.

Huw



>
> I await your wisdom oh great greasy ones....
>
>
> Regards.
> Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)
> --
> _________________________________________
> www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
> 1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
> (3,000 rivets flying in close formation)
> _________________________________________
>
>
>
> ................................................................
> Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
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On or around Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:15:14 -0000, "Huw"
<hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>I won't answer the first part of this question but your 20w/50 appears to be
>inappropriate from the specification you have provided. If you use this,
>expect severe engine sludge at an early date.

this was my problem with finding 20W50 for the earlier V8s, it's very hard
to get decent quality, and SG or better (which IIRC is the point where
anti-sludge properties become notable) is like rocking-horse fuvg, unless
you buy very expensive stuff like silkolene semi-synth.

"Mr.Nice." <mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:15:14 -0000, "Huw"
> <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mr.Nice." <mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>I read in a book that synthetic oils reduce engine wear to virtually
>>> nil (got to be a good thing).
>>
>>>
>>> My 1984 110 has done around 230k miles (2.5 n/a diesel engine).
>>
>>
>>All oils of suitable grade and changed within its limit reduces engine
>>wear
>>to virtually nothing, otherwise your engine would not have lasted 50,000
>>miles let alone 230k.
>>
>
> Fair enough.
>
>>> When I first got it I put 15w40 mineral oil in it. at the last oil
>>> change I tried 20w50 mineral oil (API=SF/CC).
>>>
>>> Worth noting that in around 5000 miles on the 20w50 the engine has not
>>> noticably used any oil.
>>
>>It would be a good idea if you changed to an appropriate grade for your
>>engine. That is not it. You need an oil with a current specification not
>>API
>>CC which has been obsolete for two decades. Might I suggest API CH4 which
>>provides everything your engine needs in terms of contaminant handling and
>>long service life. Believe me your engine is one of the worse ever for
>>chucking **** into the oil. Even using CH4 oil, the absolute maximum
>>between
>>changes should not exceed 5000 miles. This should not be exceeded even by
>>a
>>synthetic diesel specific oil due to the soot load in the oil. It
>>therefore
>>follows that a synthetic oil is a waste of money in this engine as none
>>provide any advantage over a good mineral oil. Also 15w/40 is the
>>appropriate viscosity for your engine at this mileage, or any other
>>mileage
>>come to that.
>
> I'm sure the manual says 20w50 is fine, that's why I chose it.

The viscosity is the least of your worries. AFAIAC 20w/50 would be fine in
moderate conditions as long as appropriate performance standards [as
distinct from viscosity] are met.



>
>>> My question is...
>>> Would it be a good idea to switch to a thinner fully (or semi)
>>> synthetic oil?
>>
>>No
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Would a thinner oil lead to me springing leaks on such an old worn
>>> engine?
>>
>>Are you saying that it doesn't leak already?
>
> It has damp oily bits like expected but 5000 miles and the dipstick
> level had dropped maybe 5mm. in land rover terms I call that not using
> oil...

But does it leak? Your consumption is indeed good for this engine at any age
but consumption is not generally caused by leaks unless the leaks are
extreme indeed.
FWIW mine doesn't leak either but it has only done 120,000 miles of farm
work with very few, if any, journies of more than 20 miles in the past 15
years. It does, and always has, used around a litre of oil every couple of
thousand miles though. It is also prone to the oil pressure light flashing
if involved in heavy towing for an afternoon but only when idleing. It tows
a 16ft cattle trailer regularly.



>
>>> Would there be any benefits from using a thinner synthetic oil?
>>>
>>> Should I stop talking such rubbish and use the 20w50 again?
>>
>>I won't answer the first part of this question but your 20w/50 appears to
>>be
>>inappropriate from the specification you have provided. If you use this,
>>expect severe engine sludge at an early date.
>
> I shall make an oil change a priority then.
> Is and why 20w50 a bad idea?

You appear to confuse the importance of the viscosity with the performance
grade of the oil. Again I have to say that there is nothing wrong with the
viscosity at this time of year but you quoted a performance spec which is
not sufficient for this engine and was not sufficient even when API CC was
current in the 1960's. In fact at that time LR diesels had a maximum drain
interval of 4500 miles if memory serves me.

> When I'm shopping for oil, what am I looking for on the markings?
> Am I likely to find good oil in unbranded or shop-branded oils or
> should I stick to castrols or whatever?
>

Brand is unimportant. What you should look for is an oil with API CF4 or CG4
or much better CH4 on the can. These standards were not available when your
vehicle was built.




>>> Usually I drive around rough terrain on dartmoor and bodmin moor with
>>> country roads in between, however in january I'm driving up to
>>> scotland which will be a round-trip of, all-in, 2000 miles in a week,
>>> in winter, would the thickness of the 20w50 cause any problems?
>>
>>Only in cold weather cold starts. If you leave it in the engine too long
>>this situation will result in a seized engine. A poor oil from the
>>detergent
>>point of view will thicken due to the soot load very quickely. I have
>>found
>>that a standard oil of API CD or CE thickens frighteningly in mine by 4000
>>miles yet a CH4 oil shows no sign of thickening at 5000 miles, both being
>>of
>>short journies with many cold starts and some bursts of heavy towing.
>
> This next oil change will include (probably though I may change it
> before) a trip so scotland in the winter, I'm expecting overnight
> temps of -10c and daytime no-lower than 0c, this is cold by cornwall
> standards..
>

A 20w/50 should not be used for cold starts at -10C. 15w/40 should be the
most viscous oil you should consider even for an engine with your use under
its belt.

Huw

Huw wrote:

> A 20w/50 should not be used for cold starts at -10C. 15w/40 should be the
> most viscous oil you should consider even for an engine with your use under
> its belt.

15W was rated for -15, now its rated for -20. 20W was -10, now its -15,
surely a modern lube (post Feb 2001) would be OK ?

Steve

"Steve Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Huw wrote:
>
>> A 20w/50 should not be used for cold starts at -10C. 15w/40 should be the
>> most viscous oil you should consider even for an engine with your use
>> under its belt.
>
> 15W was rated for hat, now its rated for -20. 20W was -10, now its -15,
> surely a modern lube (post Feb 2001) would be OK ?
>
> Steve


There is no such absolute rating for all vehicles.
FWIW I feel that for a LR engine of his age and tolerance, 20w/50 would be
no problem in sub zero temperatures as long as it was fairly fresh in the
sump. The soot load of this particular engine, causing the oil to thicken as
the load increased, would probably cause a problem for lesser performance
oils such as a 'CC', possibly resulting in engine failure if the oil had
more than half the 6000 mile interval on it. This is not absolute.

Again FWIW, I have a brand spanking new LR product with the state of the art
diesel. In the book of Words it states on page 261, and I quote :-

5w/30 will protect from -30C to 35C

5w/40 will protect from -30C to 50C

10w/30 will protect from -10C to 35C

10w/40 will protect from -10C to 50C

Now the implication of this is that you are obviously wrong when you say a
20w is rated to -15C. It also means that I am wrong to say a 15w is good
for -10, which is what I usually reckon even if I didn't say it here.
However, again there are no absolutes. If the weather was around or
below -10 for a few weeks regularly most Winters then I would use a 5w or
10w whatever, but if the weather only occasionally dipped to -10 for a few
days a year, then I would certainly not feel the need to change from, say, a
15w/40. If care was taken to warm the engine before a load was applied, I
would not be too bothered about a 20w/50 even, especially if the engine had
a few tens of thousands of miles on it.

I would like to know however, where you get your figures for the absolute
change in temperature protection for those two viscosities from. On what
basis do you imagine they have changed considering that the SAE viscosity
rating scales have not changed for a very long time and that therefore a
15w/40 today is still a 15w equivalent at 0C as it ever was?


Huw

"Mr.Nice." <mr.nice@*nospam*clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 18:19:13 -0000, "Huw"
> <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>But does it leak? Your consumption is indeed good for this engine at any
>>age
>>but consumption is not generally caused by leaks unless the leaks are
>>extreme indeed.
>
> I would have to say that yes it does leak,
> there is oil below the cylinder head joint and the sump is always damp
> with oil. but according to the dipstic it cannot be leaking much at
> all.
>
>>FWIW mine doesn't leak either but it has only done 120,000 miles of farm
>>work with very few, if any, journies of more than 20 miles in the past 15
>>years. It does, and always has, used around a litre of oil every couple of
>>thousand miles though. It is also prone to the oil pressure light flashing
>>if involved in heavy towing for an afternoon but only when idleing. It
>>tows
>>a 16ft cattle trailer regularly.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>> Would there be any benefits from using a thinner synthetic oil?
>>>>>
>>>>> Should I stop talking such rubbish and use the 20w50 again?
>>>>
>>>>I won't answer the first part of this question but your 20w/50 appears
>>>>to
>>>>be
>>>>inappropriate from the specification you have provided. If you use this,
>>>>expect severe engine sludge at an early date.
>>>
>>> I shall make an oil change a priority then.
>>> Is and why 20w50 a bad idea?
>>
>>You appear to confuse the importance of the viscosity with the performance
>>grade of the oil. Again I have to say that there is nothing wrong with the
>>viscosity at this time of year but you quoted a performance spec which is
>>not sufficient for this engine and was not sufficient even when API CC was
>>current in the 1960's. In fact at that time LR diesels had a maximum drain
>>interval of 4500 miles if memory serves me.
>
> OK, I had in my mind that the only thing that matters is the
> viscosity.

I kind of thought you did. It is very important for you to realise that the
viscosity is only secondary to the performance requirement.


>
>>> When I'm shopping for oil, what am I looking for on the markings?
>>> Am I likely to find good oil in unbranded or shop-branded oils or
>>> should I stick to castrols or whatever?
>>>
>>
>>Brand is unimportant. What you should look for is an oil with API CF4 or
>>CG4
>>or much better CH4 on the can. These standards were not available when
>>your
>>vehicle was built.
>
> I am having to drive to yorkshire on thursday so I'll change the oil
> before that which means I'm going to buy some tomorrow.
> I shall seek out some 15w40 and check for API as you quoted there.

API stands for the American Petroleum institute and you are looking for CH4
or CI4.
Other equivelent standards which you should seek on the can are ACEA E3 and
mb228.3

Any one of these on the can means you can be confident that the oil is
designed for heavy duty work in diesel engines with a high oil soot load.
The best long drain oils you can get, which means that your LR is really as
well protected as it can be with any oil, mineral or synthetic.



Huw

Huw wrote:


>
> I would like to know however, where you get your figures for the absolute
> change in temperature protection for those two viscosities from. On what
> basis do you imagine they have changed considering that the SAE viscosity
> rating scales have not changed for a very long time and that therefore a
> 15w/40 today is still a 15w equivalent at 0C as it ever was?

Your definition is based before my time I suspect. I apologise for not
recognising it.

....because I am the designer of one of the two equipments that test the
oils to GIVE it the designation 20W ?

Hopefully I should have picked up one or two pointers by now.

I am a member of ASTM and sit on the ASTM D02.07 committee designated to
look after viscometric testing of engine lubricants, and I sit there
with friends who helped SET SAE J300 , which made mandatory changes to
CCS limits in Feb 2001. Causes no end of fun for everyone.

I have seen customers go white when they realise they have been shipping
stuff to the old specs for the last three years....

Anyway, there was a very large engine test series done to reestablish
the background for the cold-crank limits in the late 1990's - this is
largely down to advances in engine designs since the 1950's which is
when the original data was developed.

Would you like me to send you the viscometric data ?

Steve


Ing. Steve Taylor

Technical Director
Ravenfield Designs Ltd.
Http://www.ravenfield.com

"Steve Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Huw wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I would like to know however, where you get your figures for the absolute
>> change in temperature protection for those two viscosities from. On what
>> basis do you imagine they have changed considering that the SAE viscosity
>> rating scales have not changed for a very long time and that therefore a
>> 15w/40 today is still a 15w equivalent at 0C as it ever was?
>
> Your definition is based before my time I suspect. I apologise for not
> recognising it.
>
> ...because I am the designer of one of the two equipments that test the
> oils to GIVE it the designation 20W ?
>
> Hopefully I should have picked up one or two pointers by now.

AFAICS you are quoting the ability or the standard for cold cranking
performance as a suitability for an application. In practice it is most
important, more important in practice, that an oil is able to protect the
engine from a cold start for the first ten minutes to quarter of an hour
when the oil is still extremely cold. This will require a lighter viscosity
than one that just allows the engine to fire, hence the difference between
your suitability figures and practical ones as described by Land Rover and
most other engine manufacturers, for whom the cold cranking performance is
little more than accademic interest.


>
> I am a member of ASTM and sit on the ASTM D02.07 committee designated to
> look after viscometric testing of engine lubricants, and I sit there with
> friends who helped SET SAE J300 , which made mandatory changes to CCS
> limits in Feb 2001. Causes no end of fun for everyone.
>
> I have seen customers go white when they realise they have been shipping
> stuff to the old specs for the last three years....
>
> Anyway, there was a very large engine test series done to reestablish the
> background for the cold-crank limits in the late 1990's - this is largely
> down to advances in engine designs since the 1950's which is when the
> original data was developed.
>
> Would you like me to send you the viscometric data ?
>

No thank you because you are concerned with an academic figure and
measurement for cold cranking performance. This is of very limited use for
the practical user of the end product who risks ruining an engine if he uses
cold crank limits as an indicator of protection and suitability in his
vehicle engine.
Notwithstanding your vocation, I beg to differ, if only by a small amount,
as does Land Rover and BMW. In fact I have never known anyone to advise use
of a 15w/* mineral oil below occasional -10 in practice although you are
perfectly correct in that it will crank and run, all other things allowing.

Even Finland's premier engine manufacturer, Sisu Diesel, advise SAE J300D
viscosity

5w/30 from -25 to 5C

10w/30 from -20 to 25C

10w/40 from -10 to 35

15w/30 from -10 to 30

15w/40 from -10 to 40

Again these may not be exactly the same as advised by other manufacturers
and it reflects the expected duty and design of the application.

These LR and Sisu figures are practical guides provided by manufacturers and
not *minimum cold cranking figures*, which again I have to say are not
really relevant to the user of the engine. Why you should use these figures
is probably a result of your vocation but they are not realistic in practice
for someone who wishes adequate protection after the engine has fired and
before the oil has warmed significantly.
The engine manufacturer knows what viscosity will provide the running
protection it requires for its engines and should not really be second
guessed by anyone who perhaps understands the oil viscosity standards and
their measurement in the lab backwards but, I venture to suggest, perhaps
uses the standards he is acquainted with in an inappropriate way in this
practical instance.

But then again, what the heck do I know? This is Usenet LOL

Huw

Very interesting, all this about oil.

My wifes Defender 90 (built 1990, 2.5 TD engine, 110 000 km) will have
to get new oil about next month...what should we use? What is
recommended by LR? We still were not able to even get an owners manual
with some basic information what the landy needs



regards - Ralph

--

Want to get in touch? http://www.radio-link.net/whereisralph.txt

"Ralph A. Schmid, DK5RAS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Very interesting, all this about oil.
>
> My wifes Defender 90 (built 1990, 2.5 TD engine, 110 000 km) will have
> to get new oil about next month...what should we use? What is
> recommended by LR? We still were not able to even get an owners manual
> with some basic information what the landy needs
>
>

As explained in previous correspondence, API CH4 or equivalent with a
viscosity appropriate to where you are. Simple.

Huw