Re: More Infor on BioDiesel

"R. David Steele" wrote in message >
> |According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
> |Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
> |recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
> |the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
> |of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
> |of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
> |
> |Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
> |Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
> |
((snip))

> I have been surprised at how most Americans have been resistant
> to diesel. Half of all vehicles in France are diesel. Jeep
> makes, in the US,the Liberty with a diesel (Mercedes common rail)
> but is sold in Europe. The PT Cruiser, the Jeep Grand Cherokee
> and the Land Rover line are all made with a diesel. But not sold
> here.
>
> Here in DC we have, surprising, a lot of gas stations selling
> diesel (at very high prices) diesel. Cheaper for us retired
> military types to go to Ft Myers. And you see a huge amount of
> diesel (TDI) Jetta from VW. Now Mercedes has brought back the
> E320 with the CDI (for $49K).
>
> Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
> SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
> drive!
>

How about a VW Touareg SUV with the V10 Turbo Diesel
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new_cars/Touareg/Engines#

Or the BMW X5 with the sporting 3ltr straight 6 Turbo Diesel
http://www.bmw.co.uk/apm/new_bmw/mid/index/0,,@X@GF@,00.html

In Europe they sell the Mercedes S Class and the 7 Series with big diesels
too.

It's the lack of good modern diesels that has caused problems for US owned
car companies in Europe, like Jaguar/Volvo/Saab etc., obviously their
masters couldn't understand the need until recently.

Personally, I'm a petrolhead as you can see below.
--
Regards
Bob

1974 LR S111 2.25 petrol "88" H/top
1987 LR 90 2.5 petrol H/top
1998 BMW 328i SE

Chris Phillipo wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > Austin Shackles wrote:
> > > On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
> > > <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> > >
> > >
> > >>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
> > >>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.
> >
> > Yes but diesel is much cheaper to make, so Diesel might be $1.50
> > /gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?
> >
>
> You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> comes from the same place as gasoline. You are equally delusional if
> you think it would be any cheaper per gallon in the US if demand for it
> was as high as it is for gasoline.
>

Chris
Bio Diesel can be made from any plant oil. I posted the types of
plants and the yeilds per acre of the various oil producing plants some
time back. Right now Rape seed oil is probably the most economical to
grow. The USDA (U.S. Department of Agriculture) estimates that the
yield of rapeseed oil is about 179 gallons an acre. With a viable bio
diesel market we could probably raise 20 million gallons of the stuff
with out much impact on the commercial markets of other agricultural
products.

> > > 'course, we really do need to look into biodiesel, since the fossil fuel
> > > supply is being devoured at way more than a sustainable rate. We also need
> > > to look at patterns of life and work, and stop having people commute to work
> > > who could easily do their work from home.
> > >
> > I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
> > say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
> > up. Have we enough land ?
> >
> > Steve
> >

With the creation of BioDiesel and ethanol to fuel gasoline engines
(Modern cars with computer controlled fuel injection could burn ethanol
with just reprogramming the computer) The United STates could cut its
oil imports by %30 or more. The added benefit would also be less
pollution as both ethanol and biodiesel burn cleaner than fossil
fuels.

After looking at some alternate fuel web sites and looking at the
yield tables published by the USDA. (299 gallons of ethanol per
acre from potatoes) with all the surplus potato land in Idaho, Oregon,
Washington we could make one hell of a lot of ethanol. The heat for
the distillation process can come from the burning of the left over
waste of the fermentation process.

The only thing that keeps biodiesel and ethanol from becoming major
players in the fuel markets is the relative low price of crude oil.
If crude oil stays below $35.00 a barrel then there is no economic
incentive for bio fuels. But with crude hitting $40.00 yesterday
it now becomes possible for bio fuels to become players in the fuel
markets.

The Independent


>
> Not even for just the cars in London.
> --
> ____________________
> Remove "X" from email address to reply.

Now I am going back a long way into the memory archive here but I seem
to remember that the oxidation of one molecule of benzene (the major
component of Gasoline) produces more heat than the oxidation of one
molecule of diesel. However since figuring the oxidation of any solid
or a liquid with a gas you need to use weights as that factors out the
pressure of the gas. Since gasoline weighs about 6.5 lbs per gallon and
Diesel weighs just under 7.0 lbs per gallon.

To oxidize gasoline at the most efficient ratio of gas ot air of 15/1.

That means you need 105 lbs of air to oxidize 7 lbs of of Diesel fuel.

Gasoline only need 97.5 lbs of air to oxidize 1 gallon of gasoline.

In engines of the same displacement a Diesel Engine will turn more
revolutions than a gasoline engine. Those revolutions turn into
higher defiency.

There is also the torque factor in that in a gasoline engine all the
fuel is in the cylinder at the moment of ignition and heat though being
higher initially as the gas expands the temperature starts to drop.

Because Diesel is injected into the cylinder once ignition starts some
amount of fuel is injected into the cylinder as the gas in the
cylinder is expanding the heat of the gas charge stays at the elevated
level loner, their by yeilding more torque in the turning of the engine.

The Independent




Rob Munach wrote:
>
> The Independent wrote:
>
> > You forgot to add that Diesels get better mileage than gas engines of
> > the same displacement.
> >
> > There are two reasons for this.
> > One is that diesel fuel weights more than gasoline so there is more
> > energy in a gallon of Diesel than there is in a gallon of gas.
> > The second is that Diesels work at a higher average pressure than the
> > gas engine (remember the PLANK formula when figuring horse power) and
> > there fore produce more horsepower than a gasoline engine of the same
> > size running at the same RPM. (The reason that Gas engines seem to
> > develop more horsepower is that we run them at higher RPM's). That
> > is why diesels run 200,000 to 300,000 miles between overhauls and gas
> > run between 100,000 and 150,000. Well the fact that diesel is an oil
> > which has a higher lubricant value than gasoline also makes a \
> > difference.
> >
> > The Independent
> >
> >
> >
> > "R. David Steele" wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:25 -0700, The Independent
> >><[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>|According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
> >>|Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
> >>|recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
> >>|the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
> >>|of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
> >>|of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
> >>|
> >>|Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
> >>|Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
> >>|
> >>|Bio Diesel can be made in your kitchen and the only tricking things
> >>|that you need (hard to get) are methyl Alcohol, and some small
> >>|amount of Sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid is used to pretreat
> >>|contaminated oil from deep fat Fryers and other places. Common
> >>|household lye can be purchased from local supermarket.
> >>|
> >>|Studies were done at the University of Idaho Chemical Engineering
> >>|department determined that BioDiesel made with Ethyl Alcohol,
> >>|(Ethyl Alcohol was chosen so that the fuel could be made from
> >>|all renewable resources. The Cost of the fuel in small batches
> >>|was determined to be $1.85 a gallon with the production of Glycerin
> >>|that was regarded as a waste product. Approximately 40$ of the
> >>|vegetable oil was converted into Glycerin. (However glycerin can be
> >>|used to make home made soap, shampoo, and hand lotion so it does have
> >>|a value)
> >>|
> >>|The web site that I visited and down loaded for the making of BioDiesel
> >>|was:
> >>|http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
> >>|
> >>|This is directions of making BioDiesel from Ethyal Alcohol and oil
> >>|to make BioDiesel.
> >>|
> >>|I think that Making BioDiesel in TEOTWAWKI is a very doable thing.
> >>|This should make sure that fuel will be available for Diesels Gen
> >>|Sets remain Viable long after fuel becomes unavailable.
> >>|
> >>|The Independent
> >>
> You forgot that there are also no throttling losses in a Diesel. I
> haven't heard the fuel weight argument before. What are the respective
> BTU's per lb and density for gas and diesel?

The Independent <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
>
> Chris Phillipo wrote:
>>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> [email protected] says...
>> > Austin Shackles wrote:
>> > > On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
>> > > <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't
>> > >>want them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.
>> >
>> > Yes but diesel is much cheaper to make, so Diesel might be $1.50
>> > /gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your
>> > argument then ?
>> >
>>
>> You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides
>> the stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of
>> McDonald's comes from the same place as gasoline. You are equally
>> delusional if you think it would be any cheaper per gallon in the US
>> if demand for it was as high as it is for gasoline.
>>
>
> Chris
> Bio Diesel can be made from any plant oil. I posted the types of
> plants and the yeilds per acre of the various oil producing plants
> some time back. Right now Rape seed oil is probably the most
> economical to grow. The USDA (U.S. Department of Agriculture)
> estimates that the yield of rapeseed oil is about 179 gallons an acre.
> With a viable bio diesel market we could probably raise 20 million
> gallons of the stuff with out much impact on the commercial markets of
> other agricultural products.
>

Can be made from animal fat too , the gylcerine content is way higher
though . Smells like hamburger vs corn chips when your running on it .


>> > > 'course, we really do need to look into biodiesel, since the
>> > > fossil fuel supply is being devoured at way more than a
>> > > sustainable rate. We also need to look at patterns of life and
>> > > work, and stop having people commute to work who could easily do
>> > > their work from home.
>> > >
>> > I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel
>> > for, say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then
>> > scale it up. Have we enough land ?
>> >
>> > Steve
>> >
>
> With the creation of BioDiesel and ethanol to fuel gasoline engines
> (Modern cars with computer controlled fuel injection could burn
> ethanol with just reprogramming the computer) The United STates could
> cut its oil imports by %30 or more. The added benefit would also be
> less pollution as both ethanol and biodiesel burn cleaner than fossil
> fuels.
>
> After looking at some alternate fuel web sites and looking at the
> yield tables published by the USDA. (299 gallons of ethanol per
> acre from potatoes) with all the surplus potato land in Idaho, Oregon,
> Washington we could make one hell of a lot of ethanol. The heat for
> the distillation process can come from the burning of the left over
> waste of the fermentation process.
>
> The only thing that keeps biodiesel and ethanol from becoming major
> players in the fuel markets is the relative low price of crude oil.
> If crude oil stays below $35.00 a barrel then there is no economic
> incentive for bio fuels. But with crude hitting $40.00 yesterday
> it now becomes possible for bio fuels to become players in the fuel
> markets.
>
> The Independent
>
>
>>
>> Not even for just the cars in London.
>> --
>> ____________________
>> Remove "X" from email address to reply.
>

On Tue, 11 May 2004 14:59:11 GMT, Rob Munach <[email protected]>
wrote:


>:|>>
>:|You forgot that there are also no throttling losses in a Diesel. I
>:|haven't heard the fuel weight argument before. What are the respective
>:|BTU's per lb and density for gas and diesel?

Gasoline, regular unleaded, (typical)
gallon
114,100 BTU
1.00 gallon

Gasoline, RFG, (10% MBTE)
gallon
112,000 BTU
1.02 gallons

Diesel, (typical)
gallon
129,800 BTU
0.88 gallons


-Bret

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]/OMEGA says...
> In smaller 4 or six cylinder, in line, engines diesel makes more
> sense. Until you get to the V-6, gas has no real advantage.
>
> Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
> SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
> drive!
>
>
>

They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

Chris Phillipo wrote:
>
> You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> comes from the same place as gasoline.

Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
your tank !

The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.

Steve

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, in
<[email protected]>, Steve
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Have we enough land ?

unfortunately. I don't think so

( I asked a similar question on uk.business.agriculture a while ago)
--
denis

"I teleported home one night, With Ron and Sid and Meg,
Ron stole Meggie's heart away, And I got Sidney's leg. "

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> > > /gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?
> > >
> >
> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> > comes from the same place as gasoline. You are equally delusional if
> > you think it would be any cheaper per gallon in the US if demand for it
> > was as high as it is for gasoline.
> >
>
> Chris
> Bio Diesel can be made from any plant oil. I posted the types of
> plants and the yeilds per acre of the various oil producing plants some
> time back. Right now Rape seed oil is probably the most economical to
> grow. The USDA (U.S. Department of Agriculture) estimates that the
> yield of rapeseed oil is about 179 gallons an acre. With a viable bio
> diesel market we could probably raise 20 million gallons of the stuff
> with out much impact on the commercial markets of other agricultural
> products.
>
>

Great, that should last about a week. Then what? It may have a place
in the diversification of energy sources but it's not a final solution.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected]/OMEGA says...
>> In smaller 4 or six cylinder, in line, engines diesel makes more
>> sense. Until you get to the V-6, gas has no real advantage.
>>
>> Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
>> SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
>> drive!
>>
>>
>>
>
>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.

yeah, but gas is going up in the states too. and will continue to do so, is
my guess. our "gas" (petrol) is just over 80p per litre, 3.63 per (proper
UK) gallon, which is probably somewhere around $7 at the moment. Diesel is
if anything slightly more, but the diesel-engine vehicles typically get more
MPG - our TDi discovery for example gets about 30 mpg with reasonable
driving, whereas a petro equivalent (although more fun!) would be lucky to
break 20.

'course, we really do need to look into biodiesel, since the fossil fuel
supply is being devoured at way more than a sustainable rate. We also need
to look at patterns of life and work, and stop having people commute to work
who could easily do their work from home.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Chris Phillipo wrote:
> >
> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> > comes from the same place as gasoline.
>
> Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
> your tank !
>
> The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
> it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
> Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.
>
> Steve
>

It comes from oil, not flowers and puppy dog farts, it is not made. And
it doens't matter how cheap it is to refine, I have news for you,
gasoline costs about 15 cents a liter to refine including extraction and
transport, does that seem to be helping you at the pump lately?
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

On Thu, 13 May 2004 23:02:01 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> Chris Phillipo wrote:
>> >
>> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
>> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
>> > comes from the same place as gasoline.
>>
>> Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
>> your tank !
>>
>> The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
>> it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
>> Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>
> It comes from oil, not flowers and puppy dog farts, it is not made. And
> it doens't matter how cheap it is to refine, I have news for you,
> gasoline costs about 15 cents a liter to refine including extraction and
> transport, does that seem to be helping you at the pump lately?

The destructive/fractional distillation of crude oil, plus the usual
hydrogenation of the results (to increase the yields) is sufficiently complex
to be referred to as "making". You do not pluck the diesel out of the crude
oil with a spoon.

Far less complex processes are accurately referred to as "making".

But you are certainly right about "bio-diesel" not being a reasonable substitute
for petroleum. It's a laughable idea: The fellow here who offered the idea is
not real fond of arithmetic or careful research. He just skims a couple of
web pages and goes off the deep end...

The fact is, that there is NO substitute for petroleum, nor any combination
thereof: All will be significantly more expensive for the majority of the
people, and that affects the price of everything, of course.

Fuel will be more expensive at the same time that more money is needed for
other things: And the middle-class shrinks.

Our leaders are not idiots (well, not the ones that REALLY make the decisions)



If this weren't true there wouldn't be the desperate violence being done to
keep control of the world's dwindling supplies of petroleum.

Keeping the M.E. reserves out of the hands of the Chinese (only about 200 miles
from Afghanistan and needing more and more oil everyday....) is one of the
main reasons the U.S. is in the M.E. right now.

AC

Steve <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
> say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
> up. Have we enough land ?
>
> Steve

probably not, if the US intends to supports it's consumeristic and
wasteful practices.

I forsee a VERY different lifestyle in the US once the fossil fuel dry
up. While plastics can be made from vegetable oil... the use of
plastics will much much more rare.

The use of locally grown plant fibers will come back into use,
displacing artifical fibers. Hemp, linen,and raime will be grown
locally, with some cotton in the south, but less cotton than is now
being produced.

The US will become more agricultural, and more ppl will live on farms
and will grow food and other renewable farm products.

Will would have to begin using more animal power. Houses would have to
be built of natural available materials. These residences would be
passively heated and cooled.

Only when we learned to live much more earth friendly methods can
expect to be able to grow enuf oil to power those sections of our
lives that require a boost.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Thu, 13 May 2004 23:02:01 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >> Chris Phillipo wrote:
> >> >
> >> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> >> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> >> > comes from the same place as gasoline.
> >>
> >> Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
> >> your tank !
> >>
> >> The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
> >> it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
> >> Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >
> > It comes from oil, not flowers and puppy dog farts, it is not made. And
> > it doens't matter how cheap it is to refine, I have news for you,
> > gasoline costs about 15 cents a liter to refine including extraction and
> > transport, does that seem to be helping you at the pump lately?
>
> The destructive/fractional distillation of crude oil, plus the usual
> hydrogenation of the results (to increase the yields) is sufficiently complex
> to be referred to as "making". You do not pluck the diesel out of the crude
> oil with a spoon.
>

I don't consider it "making" simply because you make a cake, you don't
extract a cake from a big tanker full of cake mix. Making implies you
are getting something greater than the sum of it's parts. It's the
opposite with refining. Diesel wouldn't even be a viable product if it
wasn't for the fact that it's a byproduct of refining oil to get
gasoline and kerosene. Imagine if oil was refined only to get diesel,
more than half the energy and 80% of the dollar value would just go down
the drain.

> Far less complex processes are accurately referred to as "making".
>
> But you are certainly right about "bio-diesel" not being a reasonable substitute
> for petroleum. It's a laughable idea: The fellow here who offered the idea is
> not real fond of arithmetic or careful research. He just skims a couple of
> web pages and goes off the deep end...
>
> The fact is, that there is NO substitute for petroleum, nor any combination
> thereof: All will be significantly more expensive for the majority of the
> people, and that affects the price of everything, of course.
>
> Fuel will be more expensive at the same time that more money is needed for
> other things: And the middle-class shrinks.
>
> Our leaders are not idiots (well, not the ones that REALLY make the decisions)
>
>
>
> If this weren't true there wouldn't be the desperate violence being done to

I think we all know that the only thing that will drive change is the
dollar and we have a long time to wait before things get that bad. Back
when we were going to run out of oil by 1989 people were talking just
like this.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, Steve
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >>
> >I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
> >say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
> >up. Have we enough land ?
> >
>
> According to some approximate figures I worked out a bit back, the fuel used
> in cars in the UK must come into the region of millions of gallons per day.
>
> However, I've no idea how much oilseed rape you have to grow to produce that
> much fuel, or indeed any given amount of fuel.

How much land is dependent on the crop, and how rich is the land. Some
oil crops produce more oil than others.

Of the crops grown for oil, coconut palms produce the most oil/acre.
Naturally, coconuts don't grow everywhere, so ppl have to figure out
what oil bearing crop grows best in their area.

The next most oil productive land plant is Canola, followed by
Safflower and Sunflowers.

Oil can come from many sources: hemp seed, corn, and a variety of
other things. There is even an oil bearing algae that grows in salt
water! This algae bears up to 10X as much oil as an equivalent amount
of coconut pulp.

Austin Shackles wrote:
> On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>
>>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
>>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.

Yes but diesel is much cheaper to make, so Diesel might be $1.50
/gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?

> 'course, we really do need to look into biodiesel, since the fossil fuel
> supply is being devoured at way more than a sustainable rate. We also need
> to look at patterns of life and work, and stop having people commute to work
> who could easily do their work from home.
>
I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
up. Have we enough land ?

Steve

On Fri, 14 May 2004 00:12:09 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> On Thu, 13 May 2004 23:02:01 -0300, Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > In article <[email protected]>,
>> > [email protected] says...
>> >> Chris Phillipo wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
>> >> > stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
>> >> > comes from the same place as gasoline.
>> >>
>> >> Diesel IS made ! It certainly ain't pulled from the ground and put in
>> >> your tank !
>> >>
>> >> The refining process for Diesel is cheaper than that for gasoline, and
>> >> it uses a rougher grade of crude oil, not a high aromatic stock like
>> >> Arabian Light. Hence its cheaper to make.
>> >>
>> >> Steve
>> >>
>> >
>> > It comes from oil, not flowers and puppy dog farts, it is not made. And
>> > it doens't matter how cheap it is to refine, I have news for you,
>> > gasoline costs about 15 cents a liter to refine including extraction and
>> > transport, does that seem to be helping you at the pump lately?
>>
>> The destructive/fractional distillation of crude oil, plus the usual
>> hydrogenation of the results (to increase the yields) is sufficiently complex
>> to be referred to as "making". You do not pluck the diesel out of the crude
>> oil with a spoon.
>>
>
> I don't consider it "making" simply because you make a cake, you don't
> extract a cake from a big tanker full of cake mix. Making implies you
> are getting something greater than the sum of it's parts. It's the
> opposite with refining.

You are using complex machinery, energy, and petroleum. That's
making. That's what I think, and I don't care whether you agree with
me or not.

Go get yourself a barrel of crude oil and produce some diesel from it
for us, and then tell us if you still think it isn't "making".

ROTFL !!

Diesel wouldn't even be a viable product if it
> wasn't for the fact that it's a byproduct of refining oil to get
> gasoline and kerosene. Imagine if oil was refined only to get diesel,
> more than half the energy and 80% of the dollar value would just go down
> the drain.
>

That's hardly relevant.


>> Far less complex processes are accurately referred to as "making".
>>
>> But you are certainly right about "bio-diesel" not being a reasonable substitute
>> for petroleum. It's a laughable idea: The fellow here who offered the idea is
>> not real fond of arithmetic or careful research. He just skims a couple of
>> web pages and goes off the deep end...
>>
>> The fact is, that there is NO substitute for petroleum, nor any combination
>> thereof: All will be significantly more expensive for the majority of the
>> people, and that affects the price of everything, of course.
>>
>> Fuel will be more expensive at the same time that more money is needed for
>> other things: And the middle-class shrinks.
>>
>> Our leaders are not idiots (well, not the ones that REALLY make the decisions)
>>
>>
>>
>> If this weren't true there wouldn't be the desperate violence being done to
>
> I think we all know that the only thing that will drive change is the
> dollar and we have a long time to wait before things get that bad. Back
> when we were going to run out of oil by 1989 people were talking just
> like this.

You are very glib, but there's little substance to your arguments.

Oil is *obviously* going to run out. Just because someone missed the date
where it becomes a critical issue, doesn't change that fact at all.

It doesn't have to be even CLOSE to running out to become too expensive
because of increasing demand from developing countries like China and India.

And for the military costs of controlling the world's *relatively* AND
absolutely, dwindling supplies to exceed the monetary advantages of
using it over alternatives. All of which are far more costly than oil
for the majority.

AC

On or around Fri, 14 May 2004 02:42:56 GMT, Alan Connor <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>But you are certainly right about "bio-diesel" not being a reasonable substitute
>for petroleum. It's a laughable idea: The fellow here who offered the idea is
>not real fond of arithmetic or careful research. He just skims a couple of
>web pages and goes off the deep end...

in what way? are you saying it's not viable due to the number involved?
'cos if so, I expect you're right. Technically, it can be done - you can
also do ethanol for spark-ignition engines.

however, we *will* deplete the oil supply if we carry on as we are, so we
need some sort of alternative. And the much in-vogue hydrogen is a long way
from practical too.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
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On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, Steve
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>>
>I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
>say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
>up. Have we enough land ?
>

According to some approximate figures I worked out a bit back, the fuel used
in cars in the UK must come into the region of millions of gallons per day.

However, I've no idea how much oilseed rape you have to grow to produce that
much fuel, or indeed any given amount of fuel.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Something there is that doesn't love a wall."
Robert Frost (1874-1963)

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:

->Austin Shackles wrote:
->> On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
->> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
->>
->>
->>>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
->>>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.
->
->Yes but diesel is much cheaper to make, so Diesel might be $1.50
->/gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?

You are forgetting tax, because of the tax diesel in more expensive then petrol.



--
Geoff
www.anoraks.uk.net