Re: More Infor on BioDiesel

On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:25 -0700, The Independent
<[email protected]> wrote:

|According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
|Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
|recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
|the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
|of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
|of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
|
|Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
|Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
|
|Bio Diesel can be made in your kitchen and the only tricking things
|that you need (hard to get) are methyl Alcohol, and some small
|amount of Sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid is used to pretreat
|contaminated oil from deep fat Fryers and other places. Common
|household lye can be purchased from local supermarket.
|
|Studies were done at the University of Idaho Chemical Engineering
|department determined that BioDiesel made with Ethyl Alcohol,
|(Ethyl Alcohol was chosen so that the fuel could be made from
|all renewable resources. The Cost of the fuel in small batches
|was determined to be $1.85 a gallon with the production of Glycerin
|that was regarded as a waste product. Approximately 40$ of the
|vegetable oil was converted into Glycerin. (However glycerin can be
|used to make home made soap, shampoo, and hand lotion so it does have
|a value)
|
|The web site that I visited and down loaded for the making of BioDiesel
|was:
|http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
|
|This is directions of making BioDiesel from Ethyal Alcohol and oil
|to make BioDiesel.
|
|I think that Making BioDiesel in TEOTWAWKI is a very doable thing.
|This should make sure that fuel will be available for Diesels Gen
|Sets remain Viable long after fuel becomes unavailable.
|
|The Independent

I have been surprised at how most Americans have been resistant
to diesel. Half of all vehicles in France are diesel. Jeep
makes, in the US,the Liberty with a diesel (Mercedes common rail)
but is sold in Europe. The PT Cruiser, the Jeep Grand Cherokee
and the Land Rover line are all made with a diesel. But not sold
here.

Here in DC we have, surprising, a lot of gas stations selling
diesel (at very high prices) diesel. Cheaper for us retired
military types to go to Ft Myers. And you see a huge amount of
diesel (TDI) Jetta from VW. Now Mercedes has brought back the
E320 with the CDI (for $49K).

I can't remember the one actress, Dayrll Hanna I think, who is
pushing bio-diesel. Her company reprocesses old cooking oil
(from french friers). But it is also possible to make bio-diesel
from soy or other plants. By law we are to have 20% of our
diesel made from soy.

Also we are starting to see engines made for small aircraft that
are diesels. Jet A or diesel is just more available than AVGAS.
Especially in the third world. In many places you can not even
get regular gas (let alone unleaded!!).

In smaller 4 or six cylinder, in line, engines diesel makes more
sense. Until you get to the V-6, gas has no real advantage.

Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
drive!

On Tue, 11 May 2004 11:33:31 GMT, R. David Steele
<[email protected]/OMEGA> said:

>On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:25 -0700, The Independent
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>|According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
>|Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
>|recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
>|the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
>|of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
>|of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
>|
>|Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
>|Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
>|
>|Bio Diesel can be made in your kitchen and the only tricking things
>|that you need (hard to get) are methyl Alcohol, and some small
>|amount of Sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid is used to pretreat
>|contaminated oil from deep fat Fryers and other places. Common
>|household lye can be purchased from local supermarket.
>|
>|Studies were done at the University of Idaho Chemical Engineering
>|department determined that BioDiesel made with Ethyl Alcohol,
>|(Ethyl Alcohol was chosen so that the fuel could be made from
>|all renewable resources. The Cost of the fuel in small batches
>|was determined to be $1.85 a gallon with the production of Glycerin
>|that was regarded as a waste product. Approximately 40$ of the
>|vegetable oil was converted into Glycerin. (However glycerin can be
>|used to make home made soap, shampoo, and hand lotion so it does have
>|a value)
>|
>|The web site that I visited and down loaded for the making of BioDiesel
>|was:
>|http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
>|
>|This is directions of making BioDiesel from Ethyal Alcohol and oil
>|to make BioDiesel.
>|
>|I think that Making BioDiesel in TEOTWAWKI is a very doable thing.
>|This should make sure that fuel will be available for Diesels Gen
>|Sets remain Viable long after fuel becomes unavailable.
>|
>|The Independent
>
>I have been surprised at how most Americans have been resistant
>to diesel. Half of all vehicles in France are diesel. Jeep
>makes, in the US,the Liberty with a diesel (Mercedes common rail)
>but is sold in Europe. The PT Cruiser, the Jeep Grand Cherokee
>and the Land Rover line are all made with a diesel. But not sold
>here.
>
>Here in DC we have, surprising, a lot of gas stations selling
>diesel (at very high prices) diesel. Cheaper for us retired
>military types to go to Ft Myers. And you see a huge amount of
>diesel (TDI) Jetta from VW. Now Mercedes has brought back the
>E320 with the CDI (for $49K).
>
>I can't remember the one actress, Dayrll Hanna I think, who is
>pushing bio-diesel. Her company reprocesses old cooking oil
>(from french friers). But it is also possible to make bio-diesel
>from soy or other plants. By law we are to have 20% of our
>diesel made from soy.
>
>Also we are starting to see engines made for small aircraft that
>are diesels. Jet A or diesel is just more available than AVGAS.
>Especially in the third world. In many places you can not even
>get regular gas (let alone unleaded!!).
>
>In smaller 4 or six cylinder, in line, engines diesel makes more
>sense. Until you get to the V-6, gas has no real advantage.
>
>Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
>SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
>drive!
>

They do, you just have to order it. I'm getting ready to buy a new
2005 Nisson X-terra with a diesel engine, I have to special order it
tho. The price believe it or not is about the same as a gasoline
model. IIRC there are a lot of vehicals that you can special order the
diesel for. The cars you buy in the U.S. are gas powered for the most
part, however those same cars that are made for the Europe and South
American market are diesels, YMMV.

You forgot to add that Diesels get better mileage than gas engines of
the same displacement.

There are two reasons for this.
One is that diesel fuel weights more than gasoline so there is more
energy in a gallon of Diesel than there is in a gallon of gas.
The second is that Diesels work at a higher average pressure than the
gas engine (remember the PLANK formula when figuring horse power) and
there fore produce more horsepower than a gasoline engine of the same
size running at the same RPM. (The reason that Gas engines seem to
develop more horsepower is that we run them at higher RPM's). That
is why diesels run 200,000 to 300,000 miles between overhauls and gas
run between 100,000 and 150,000. Well the fact that diesel is an oil
which has a higher lubricant value than gasoline also makes a \
difference.

The Independent



"R. David Steele" wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:25 -0700, The Independent
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> |According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
> |Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
> |recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
> |the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
> |of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
> |of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
> |
> |Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
> |Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
> |
> |Bio Diesel can be made in your kitchen and the only tricking things
> |that you need (hard to get) are methyl Alcohol, and some small
> |amount of Sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid is used to pretreat
> |contaminated oil from deep fat Fryers and other places. Common
> |household lye can be purchased from local supermarket.
> |
> |Studies were done at the University of Idaho Chemical Engineering
> |department determined that BioDiesel made with Ethyl Alcohol,
> |(Ethyl Alcohol was chosen so that the fuel could be made from
> |all renewable resources. The Cost of the fuel in small batches
> |was determined to be $1.85 a gallon with the production of Glycerin
> |that was regarded as a waste product. Approximately 40$ of the
> |vegetable oil was converted into Glycerin. (However glycerin can be
> |used to make home made soap, shampoo, and hand lotion so it does have
> |a value)
> |
> |The web site that I visited and down loaded for the making of BioDiesel
> |was:
> |http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
> |
> |This is directions of making BioDiesel from Ethyal Alcohol and oil
> |to make BioDiesel.
> |
> |I think that Making BioDiesel in TEOTWAWKI is a very doable thing.
> |This should make sure that fuel will be available for Diesels Gen
> |Sets remain Viable long after fuel becomes unavailable.
> |
> |The Independent
>
> I have been surprised at how most Americans have been resistant
> to diesel. Half of all vehicles in France are diesel. Jeep
> makes, in the US,the Liberty with a diesel (Mercedes common rail)
> but is sold in Europe. The PT Cruiser, the Jeep Grand Cherokee
> and the Land Rover line are all made with a diesel. But not sold
> here.
>
> Here in DC we have, surprising, a lot of gas stations selling
> diesel (at very high prices) diesel. Cheaper for us retired
> military types to go to Ft Myers. And you see a huge amount of
> diesel (TDI) Jetta from VW. Now Mercedes has brought back the
> E320 with the CDI (for $49K).
>
> I can't remember the one actress, Dayrll Hanna I think, who is
> pushing bio-diesel. Her company reprocesses old cooking oil
> (from french friers). But it is also possible to make bio-diesel
> from soy or other plants. By law we are to have 20% of our
> diesel made from soy.
>
> Also we are starting to see engines made for small aircraft that
> are diesels. Jet A or diesel is just more available than AVGAS.
> Especially in the third world. In many places you can not even
> get regular gas (let alone unleaded!!).
>
> In smaller 4 or six cylinder, in line, engines diesel makes more
> sense. Until you get to the V-6, gas has no real advantage.
>
> Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
> SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
> drive!

The Independent wrote:

> You forgot to add that Diesels get better mileage than gas engines of
> the same displacement.
>
> There are two reasons for this.
> One is that diesel fuel weights more than gasoline so there is more
> energy in a gallon of Diesel than there is in a gallon of gas.
> The second is that Diesels work at a higher average pressure than the
> gas engine (remember the PLANK formula when figuring horse power) and
> there fore produce more horsepower than a gasoline engine of the same
> size running at the same RPM. (The reason that Gas engines seem to
> develop more horsepower is that we run them at higher RPM's). That
> is why diesels run 200,000 to 300,000 miles between overhauls and gas
> run between 100,000 and 150,000. Well the fact that diesel is an oil
> which has a higher lubricant value than gasoline also makes a \
> difference.
>
> The Independent
>
>
>
> "R. David Steele" wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:25 -0700, The Independent
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>|According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
>>|Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
>>|recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
>>|the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
>>|of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
>>|of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
>>|
>>|Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
>>|Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
>>|
>>|Bio Diesel can be made in your kitchen and the only tricking things
>>|that you need (hard to get) are methyl Alcohol, and some small
>>|amount of Sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid is used to pretreat
>>|contaminated oil from deep fat Fryers and other places. Common
>>|household lye can be purchased from local supermarket.
>>|
>>|Studies were done at the University of Idaho Chemical Engineering
>>|department determined that BioDiesel made with Ethyl Alcohol,
>>|(Ethyl Alcohol was chosen so that the fuel could be made from
>>|all renewable resources. The Cost of the fuel in small batches
>>|was determined to be $1.85 a gallon with the production of Glycerin
>>|that was regarded as a waste product. Approximately 40$ of the
>>|vegetable oil was converted into Glycerin. (However glycerin can be
>>|used to make home made soap, shampoo, and hand lotion so it does have
>>|a value)
>>|
>>|The web site that I visited and down loaded for the making of BioDiesel
>>|was:
>>|http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
>>|
>>|This is directions of making BioDiesel from Ethyal Alcohol and oil
>>|to make BioDiesel.
>>|
>>|I think that Making BioDiesel in TEOTWAWKI is a very doable thing.
>>|This should make sure that fuel will be available for Diesels Gen
>>|Sets remain Viable long after fuel becomes unavailable.
>>|
>>|The Independent
>>
You forgot that there are also no throttling losses in a Diesel. I
haven't heard the fuel weight argument before. What are the respective
BTU's per lb and density for gas and diesel?

"R. David Steele" wrote in message >
> |According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
> |Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
> |recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
> |the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
> |of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
> |of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
> |
> |Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
> |Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
> |
((snip))

> I have been surprised at how most Americans have been resistant
> to diesel. Half of all vehicles in France are diesel. Jeep
> makes, in the US,the Liberty with a diesel (Mercedes common rail)
> but is sold in Europe. The PT Cruiser, the Jeep Grand Cherokee
> and the Land Rover line are all made with a diesel. But not sold
> here.
>
> Here in DC we have, surprising, a lot of gas stations selling
> diesel (at very high prices) diesel. Cheaper for us retired
> military types to go to Ft Myers. And you see a huge amount of
> diesel (TDI) Jetta from VW. Now Mercedes has brought back the
> E320 with the CDI (for $49K).
>
> Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
> SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
> drive!
>

How about a VW Touareg SUV with the V10 Turbo Diesel
http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new_cars/Touareg/Engines#

Or the BMW X5 with the sporting 3ltr straight 6 Turbo Diesel
http://www.bmw.co.uk/apm/new_bmw/mid/index/0,,@X@GF@,00.html

In Europe they sell the Mercedes S Class and the 7 Series with big diesels
too.

It's the lack of good modern diesels that has caused problems for US owned
car companies in Europe, like Jaguar/Volvo/Saab etc., obviously their
masters couldn't understand the need until recently.

Personally, I'm a petrolhead as you can see below.
--
Regards
Bob

1974 LR S111 2.25 petrol "88" H/top
1987 LR 90 2.5 petrol H/top
1998 BMW 328i SE

Now I am going back a long way into the memory archive here but I seem
to remember that the oxidation of one molecule of benzene (the major
component of Gasoline) produces more heat than the oxidation of one
molecule of diesel. However since figuring the oxidation of any solid
or a liquid with a gas you need to use weights as that factors out the
pressure of the gas. Since gasoline weighs about 6.5 lbs per gallon and
Diesel weighs just under 7.0 lbs per gallon.

To oxidize gasoline at the most efficient ratio of gas ot air of 15/1.

That means you need 105 lbs of air to oxidize 7 lbs of of Diesel fuel.

Gasoline only need 97.5 lbs of air to oxidize 1 gallon of gasoline.

In engines of the same displacement a Diesel Engine will turn more
revolutions than a gasoline engine. Those revolutions turn into
higher defiency.

There is also the torque factor in that in a gasoline engine all the
fuel is in the cylinder at the moment of ignition and heat though being
higher initially as the gas expands the temperature starts to drop.

Because Diesel is injected into the cylinder once ignition starts some
amount of fuel is injected into the cylinder as the gas in the
cylinder is expanding the heat of the gas charge stays at the elevated
level loner, their by yeilding more torque in the turning of the engine.

The Independent




Rob Munach wrote:
>
> The Independent wrote:
>
> > You forgot to add that Diesels get better mileage than gas engines of
> > the same displacement.
> >
> > There are two reasons for this.
> > One is that diesel fuel weights more than gasoline so there is more
> > energy in a gallon of Diesel than there is in a gallon of gas.
> > The second is that Diesels work at a higher average pressure than the
> > gas engine (remember the PLANK formula when figuring horse power) and
> > there fore produce more horsepower than a gasoline engine of the same
> > size running at the same RPM. (The reason that Gas engines seem to
> > develop more horsepower is that we run them at higher RPM's). That
> > is why diesels run 200,000 to 300,000 miles between overhauls and gas
> > run between 100,000 and 150,000. Well the fact that diesel is an oil
> > which has a higher lubricant value than gasoline also makes a \
> > difference.
> >
> > The Independent
> >
> >
> >
> > "R. David Steele" wrote:
> >
> >>On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:25 -0700, The Independent
> >><[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>|According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
> >>|Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
> >>|recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
> >>|the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
> >>|of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
> >>|of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
> >>|
> >>|Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
> >>|Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
> >>|
> >>|Bio Diesel can be made in your kitchen and the only tricking things
> >>|that you need (hard to get) are methyl Alcohol, and some small
> >>|amount of Sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid is used to pretreat
> >>|contaminated oil from deep fat Fryers and other places. Common
> >>|household lye can be purchased from local supermarket.
> >>|
> >>|Studies were done at the University of Idaho Chemical Engineering
> >>|department determined that BioDiesel made with Ethyl Alcohol,
> >>|(Ethyl Alcohol was chosen so that the fuel could be made from
> >>|all renewable resources. The Cost of the fuel in small batches
> >>|was determined to be $1.85 a gallon with the production of Glycerin
> >>|that was regarded as a waste product. Approximately 40$ of the
> >>|vegetable oil was converted into Glycerin. (However glycerin can be
> >>|used to make home made soap, shampoo, and hand lotion so it does have
> >>|a value)
> >>|
> >>|The web site that I visited and down loaded for the making of BioDiesel
> >>|was:
> >>|http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
> >>|
> >>|This is directions of making BioDiesel from Ethyal Alcohol and oil
> >>|to make BioDiesel.
> >>|
> >>|I think that Making BioDiesel in TEOTWAWKI is a very doable thing.
> >>|This should make sure that fuel will be available for Diesels Gen
> >>|Sets remain Viable long after fuel becomes unavailable.
> >>|
> >>|The Independent
> >>
> You forgot that there are also no throttling losses in a Diesel. I
> haven't heard the fuel weight argument before. What are the respective
> BTU's per lb and density for gas and diesel?

On Tue, 11 May 2004 14:59:11 GMT, Rob Munach <[email protected]>
wrote:


>:|>>
>:|You forgot that there are also no throttling losses in a Diesel. I
>:|haven't heard the fuel weight argument before. What are the respective
>:|BTU's per lb and density for gas and diesel?

Gasoline, regular unleaded, (typical)
gallon
114,100 BTU
1.00 gallon

Gasoline, RFG, (10% MBTE)
gallon
112,000 BTU
1.02 gallons

Diesel, (typical)
gallon
129,800 BTU
0.88 gallons


-Bret

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected]/OMEGA says...
> In smaller 4 or six cylinder, in line, engines diesel makes more
> sense. Until you get to the V-6, gas has no real advantage.
>
> Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
> SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
> drive!
>
>
>

They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>In article <[email protected]>,
>[email protected]/OMEGA says...
>> In smaller 4 or six cylinder, in line, engines diesel makes more
>> sense. Until you get to the V-6, gas has no real advantage.
>>
>> Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
>> SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
>> drive!
>>
>>
>>
>
>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.

yeah, but gas is going up in the states too. and will continue to do so, is
my guess. our "gas" (petrol) is just over 80p per litre, 3.63 per (proper
UK) gallon, which is probably somewhere around $7 at the moment. Diesel is
if anything slightly more, but the diesel-engine vehicles typically get more
MPG - our TDi discovery for example gets about 30 mpg with reasonable
driving, whereas a petro equivalent (although more fun!) would be lucky to
break 20.

'course, we really do need to look into biodiesel, since the fossil fuel
supply is being devoured at way more than a sustainable rate. We also need
to look at patterns of life and work, and stop having people commute to work
who could easily do their work from home.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

Austin Shackles wrote:
> On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>
>>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
>>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.

Yes but diesel is much cheaper to make, so Diesel might be $1.50
/gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?

> 'course, we really do need to look into biodiesel, since the fossil fuel
> supply is being devoured at way more than a sustainable rate. We also need
> to look at patterns of life and work, and stop having people commute to work
> who could easily do their work from home.
>
I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
up. Have we enough land ?

Steve

On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, Steve
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>>
>I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
>say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
>up. Have we enough land ?
>

According to some approximate figures I worked out a bit back, the fuel used
in cars in the UK must come into the region of millions of gallons per day.

However, I've no idea how much oilseed rape you have to grow to produce that
much fuel, or indeed any given amount of fuel.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Something there is that doesn't love a wall."
Robert Frost (1874-1963)

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:

->Austin Shackles wrote:
->> On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
->> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
->>
->>
->>>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
->>>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.
->
->Yes but diesel is much cheaper to make, so Diesel might be $1.50
->/gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?

You are forgetting tax, because of the tax diesel in more expensive then petrol.



--
Geoff
www.anoraks.uk.net

On Tue, 11 May 2004 11:33:31 GMT, R. David Steele
<[email protected]/OMEGA> said:

>On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:25 -0700, The Independent
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>|According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
>|Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
>|recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
>|the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
>|of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
>|of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
>|
>|Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
>|Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
>|
>|Bio Diesel can be made in your kitchen and the only tricking things
>|that you need (hard to get) are methyl Alcohol, and some small
>|amount of Sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid is used to pretreat
>|contaminated oil from deep fat Fryers and other places. Common
>|household lye can be purchased from local supermarket.
>|
>|Studies were done at the University of Idaho Chemical Engineering
>|department determined that BioDiesel made with Ethyl Alcohol,
>|(Ethyl Alcohol was chosen so that the fuel could be made from
>|all renewable resources. The Cost of the fuel in small batches
>|was determined to be $1.85 a gallon with the production of Glycerin
>|that was regarded as a waste product. Approximately 40$ of the
>|vegetable oil was converted into Glycerin. (However glycerin can be
>|used to make home made soap, shampoo, and hand lotion so it does have
>|a value)
>|
>|The web site that I visited and down loaded for the making of BioDiesel
>|was:
>|http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
>|
>|This is directions of making BioDiesel from Ethyal Alcohol and oil
>|to make BioDiesel.
>|
>|I think that Making BioDiesel in TEOTWAWKI is a very doable thing.
>|This should make sure that fuel will be available for Diesels Gen
>|Sets remain Viable long after fuel becomes unavailable.
>|
>|The Independent
>
>I have been surprised at how most Americans have been resistant
>to diesel. Half of all vehicles in France are diesel. Jeep
>makes, in the US,the Liberty with a diesel (Mercedes common rail)
>but is sold in Europe. The PT Cruiser, the Jeep Grand Cherokee
>and the Land Rover line are all made with a diesel. But not sold
>here.
>
>Here in DC we have, surprising, a lot of gas stations selling
>diesel (at very high prices) diesel. Cheaper for us retired
>military types to go to Ft Myers. And you see a huge amount of
>diesel (TDI) Jetta from VW. Now Mercedes has brought back the
>E320 with the CDI (for $49K).
>
>I can't remember the one actress, Dayrll Hanna I think, who is
>pushing bio-diesel. Her company reprocesses old cooking oil
>(from french friers). But it is also possible to make bio-diesel
>from soy or other plants. By law we are to have 20% of our
>diesel made from soy.
>
>Also we are starting to see engines made for small aircraft that
>are diesels. Jet A or diesel is just more available than AVGAS.
>Especially in the third world. In many places you can not even
>get regular gas (let alone unleaded!!).
>
>In smaller 4 or six cylinder, in line, engines diesel makes more
>sense. Until you get to the V-6, gas has no real advantage.
>
>Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
>SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
>drive!
>

They do, you just have to order it. I'm getting ready to buy a new
2005 Nisson X-terra with a diesel engine, I have to special order it
tho. The price believe it or not is about the same as a gasoline
model. IIRC there are a lot of vehicals that you can special order the
diesel for. The cars you buy in the U.S. are gas powered for the most
part, however those same cars that are made for the Europe and South
American market are diesels, YMMV.

You forgot to add that Diesels get better mileage than gas engines of
the same displacement.

There are two reasons for this.
One is that diesel fuel weights more than gasoline so there is more
energy in a gallon of Diesel than there is in a gallon of gas.
The second is that Diesels work at a higher average pressure than the
gas engine (remember the PLANK formula when figuring horse power) and
there fore produce more horsepower than a gasoline engine of the same
size running at the same RPM. (The reason that Gas engines seem to
develop more horsepower is that we run them at higher RPM's). That
is why diesels run 200,000 to 300,000 miles between overhauls and gas
run between 100,000 and 150,000. Well the fact that diesel is an oil
which has a higher lubricant value than gasoline also makes a \
difference.

The Independent



"R. David Steele" wrote:
>
> On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:25 -0700, The Independent
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> |According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
> |Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
> |recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
> |the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
> |of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
> |of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
> |
> |Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
> |Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
> |
> |Bio Diesel can be made in your kitchen and the only tricking things
> |that you need (hard to get) are methyl Alcohol, and some small
> |amount of Sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid is used to pretreat
> |contaminated oil from deep fat Fryers and other places. Common
> |household lye can be purchased from local supermarket.
> |
> |Studies were done at the University of Idaho Chemical Engineering
> |department determined that BioDiesel made with Ethyl Alcohol,
> |(Ethyl Alcohol was chosen so that the fuel could be made from
> |all renewable resources. The Cost of the fuel in small batches
> |was determined to be $1.85 a gallon with the production of Glycerin
> |that was regarded as a waste product. Approximately 40$ of the
> |vegetable oil was converted into Glycerin. (However glycerin can be
> |used to make home made soap, shampoo, and hand lotion so it does have
> |a value)
> |
> |The web site that I visited and down loaded for the making of BioDiesel
> |was:
> |http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
> |
> |This is directions of making BioDiesel from Ethyal Alcohol and oil
> |to make BioDiesel.
> |
> |I think that Making BioDiesel in TEOTWAWKI is a very doable thing.
> |This should make sure that fuel will be available for Diesels Gen
> |Sets remain Viable long after fuel becomes unavailable.
> |
> |The Independent
>
> I have been surprised at how most Americans have been resistant
> to diesel. Half of all vehicles in France are diesel. Jeep
> makes, in the US,the Liberty with a diesel (Mercedes common rail)
> but is sold in Europe. The PT Cruiser, the Jeep Grand Cherokee
> and the Land Rover line are all made with a diesel. But not sold
> here.
>
> Here in DC we have, surprising, a lot of gas stations selling
> diesel (at very high prices) diesel. Cheaper for us retired
> military types to go to Ft Myers. And you see a huge amount of
> diesel (TDI) Jetta from VW. Now Mercedes has brought back the
> E320 with the CDI (for $49K).
>
> I can't remember the one actress, Dayrll Hanna I think, who is
> pushing bio-diesel. Her company reprocesses old cooking oil
> (from french friers). But it is also possible to make bio-diesel
> from soy or other plants. By law we are to have 20% of our
> diesel made from soy.
>
> Also we are starting to see engines made for small aircraft that
> are diesels. Jet A or diesel is just more available than AVGAS.
> Especially in the third world. In many places you can not even
> get regular gas (let alone unleaded!!).
>
> In smaller 4 or six cylinder, in line, engines diesel makes more
> sense. Until you get to the V-6, gas has no real advantage.
>
> Now, when are we going to see Land Rover or Jeep sell a diesel
> SUV in the US? These gas prices are making SUVs too expensive to
> drive!

Austin Shackles said:

>On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, Steve
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>>
>>I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
>>say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
>>up. Have we enough land ?
>>
>
>According to some approximate figures I worked out a bit back, the fuel used
>in cars in the UK must come into the region of millions of gallons per day.
>
>However, I've no idea how much oilseed rape you have to grow to produce that
>much fuel, or indeed any given amount of fuel.

Apparently the current UK oilseed rape crop would meet around 5% of our
Diesel needs.
--
Simes
Return address ROT'd...

Austin Shackles wrote:
>
> On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, Steve
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >>
> >I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
> >say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
> >up. Have we enough land ?
> >
>

Well according to the table that the Alternative fuel association and
the department of Ag put out, you can get 127 gallons of oil per acre
of Rape seed. (I suspect that this is under optimum conditions. For
planning purposes I would suspect that you can count on 50 gallons an
acre).

Lets use the lower number for planning purposes so 12,000 miles divided
by 40 miles per gallon. It comes out to 300 gallons per year. In the
making of biodiesel you can only esterize the triglycerides so you only
get about 50-55% recovery of biodiesel from rape seed oil. So you can
expect that to have 300 gallons of biodiesel you would have to raise
600 gallons of rape seed oil. This would mean that you would have to
have 12 acres of rapeseed.

Then you would have to have at least 60 gallons of ethanol made from
sugar beets (412 gal per acre), Potatoes (299 gal per acre) and
Corn (214 gal per acre). So I would say that an additional acre
of land for the raising of potatoes would give you the alcohol for
the conversion process. Then you would need about a 5 lbs of lye
which you can buy at the super market (RED Devil cleaning lye).

So I guess 13 acres would be all you need.

The Independent

Now I don't know what the conversion factor of ethanol to corn is but I
would probably put it at not more than
factor for
> According to some approximate figures I worked out a bit back, the fuel used
> in cars in the UK must come into the region of millions of gallons per day.
>
> However, I've no idea how much oilseed rape you have to grow to produce that
> much fuel, or indeed any given amount of fuel.
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
> "Something there is that doesn't love a wall."
> Robert Frost (1874-1963)

The Independent wrote:

> You forgot to add that Diesels get better mileage than gas engines of
> the same displacement.
>
> There are two reasons for this.
> One is that diesel fuel weights more than gasoline so there is more
> energy in a gallon of Diesel than there is in a gallon of gas.
> The second is that Diesels work at a higher average pressure than the
> gas engine (remember the PLANK formula when figuring horse power) and
> there fore produce more horsepower than a gasoline engine of the same
> size running at the same RPM. (The reason that Gas engines seem to
> develop more horsepower is that we run them at higher RPM's). That
> is why diesels run 200,000 to 300,000 miles between overhauls and gas
> run between 100,000 and 150,000. Well the fact that diesel is an oil
> which has a higher lubricant value than gasoline also makes a \
> difference.
>
> The Independent
>
>
>
> "R. David Steele" wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 10 May 2004 15:30:25 -0700, The Independent
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>|According to the Department of Ag and the Alternative Fuels Data
>>|Center, the amount of vegetable oils and animal fats that can be
>>|recycled and the overproduction of Soy oil, the United States has
>>|the capacity to produce 1,900,000,000 (that 1.9 billion) gallons
>>|of BioDiesel annually. That is the equivalent of 6.65 million tons
>>|of Diesel fuel or 33 super tankers full of diesel fuel.
>>|
>>|Besides the BioDiesel is a much cleaner burning fuel than regular
>>|Diesel and is much more environmentally friendly fuel.
>>|
>>|Bio Diesel can be made in your kitchen and the only tricking things
>>|that you need (hard to get) are methyl Alcohol, and some small
>>|amount of Sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid is used to pretreat
>>|contaminated oil from deep fat Fryers and other places. Common
>>|household lye can be purchased from local supermarket.
>>|
>>|Studies were done at the University of Idaho Chemical Engineering
>>|department determined that BioDiesel made with Ethyl Alcohol,
>>|(Ethyl Alcohol was chosen so that the fuel could be made from
>>|all renewable resources. The Cost of the fuel in small batches
>>|was determined to be $1.85 a gallon with the production of Glycerin
>>|that was regarded as a waste product. Approximately 40$ of the
>>|vegetable oil was converted into Glycerin. (However glycerin can be
>>|used to make home made soap, shampoo, and hand lotion so it does have
>>|a value)
>>|
>>|The web site that I visited and down loaded for the making of BioDiesel
>>|was:
>>|http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#ethylester
>>|
>>|This is directions of making BioDiesel from Ethyal Alcohol and oil
>>|to make BioDiesel.
>>|
>>|I think that Making BioDiesel in TEOTWAWKI is a very doable thing.
>>|This should make sure that fuel will be available for Diesels Gen
>>|Sets remain Viable long after fuel becomes unavailable.
>>|
>>|The Independent
>>
You forgot that there are also no throttling losses in a Diesel. I
haven't heard the fuel weight argument before. What are the respective
BTU's per lb and density for gas and diesel?

On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 14:42:19 +0100, Geoff
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:09:24 +0100, Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>->Austin Shackles wrote:
>->> On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
>->> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>->>
>->>
>->>>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
>->>>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.
>->
>->Yes but diesel is much cheaper to make, so Diesel might be $1.50
>->/gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?
>
>You are forgetting tax, because of the tax diesel in more expensive then petrol.

in the UK, currently, both have duty levied at around the same rate, about
45p/l, plus VAT (!) Low-sulphur fuels are slightly better, and bio-diesel
significantly better, but I know of no garages actually sellgin bio-diesel.
There is some bio-blend about, which is a mixture of bio and fossil.


--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero" (sieze today, and put
as little trust as you can in tomorrow) Horace (65 - 8 BC) Odes, I.xi.8

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Austin Shackles wrote:
> > On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
> > <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> >
> >
> >>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
> >>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.
>
> Yes but diesel is much cheaper to make, so Diesel might be $1.50
> /gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?
>

You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
comes from the same place as gasoline. You are equally delusional if
you think it would be any cheaper per gallon in the US if demand for it
was as high as it is for gasoline.

> > 'course, we really do need to look into biodiesel, since the fossil fuel
> > supply is being devoured at way more than a sustainable rate. We also need
> > to look at patterns of life and work, and stop having people commute to work
> > who could easily do their work from home.
> >
> I would like to know how much land it would take to grow biodiesel for,
> say, my car which does 10-12,000 miles/year at 40-50 mpg. Then scale it
> up. Have we enough land ?
>
> Steve
>

Not even for just the cars in London.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

In article <[email protected]>, Chris
Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > Austin Shackles wrote:
> > > On or around Wed, 12 May 2004 00:48:23 -0300, Chris Phillipo
> > > <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> > >
> > >
> > >>They already have and do, no one wants them. Europeans wouldn't want
> > >>them either if gas was $2 a gallon there too.
> >
> > Yes but diesel is much cheaper to make, so Diesel might be $1.50
> > /gallon, and still more efficient than "gas". Where is your argument then ?
> >
>
> You are delusional if you think diesel is "made", all diesel besides the
> stuff a dozen or so people are pilfering from the back of McDonald's
> comes from the same place as gasoline. You are equally delusional if
> you think it would be any cheaper per gallon in the US if demand for it
> was as high as it is for gasoline.

And diesel is _more_ expensive here in California than any of the main
varieties of gasoline.

The reason is obvious: the long-distance trucks _have_ to run on
diesel, whereas a lot of gasoline users are cutting way back on
travel. The result is that diesel is being bid up, with the consumers
of vegetables and milk and other goods paying.

Riding on the coat tails of diesel is sometimes good, sometimes bad.
Right now, it's real bad.

--Tim May