Range rover vogue gearbox issues

Danastle1992 said:

Sorry it took so long but there is a slight update but not much has happened other than a lot of research, looking into the juddering people are saying it's the torque convertor lock up clutch, but when they put the car into sport or manual mode that lock up clutch is disabled thus stopping the juddering. Well I've tried that and it makes no difference whatsoever, it still judders at exactly the same times so I've got no idea what the problem with mine is. I also discovered the sump pan is damp so I took it to my mates garage, let it cool down for 2 hours then checked the gearbox level applying the rather strange instructions I found in a manual online, the gearbox was at the correct temperature and I'd been through park to drive and manual gears holding for a few seconds each time and the gearbox was around 0.5 - 0.75 litres below level. So after topping up I went for a drive and low and behold the problem was still there and hasn't got any better since. One thing I did notice is that the oil had a rather pungent smell, can't remember the exact colour but it was nothing like what was going in. Obviously I've only used the correct ZF Lifeguard 6 oil at stupid cost per litre. So if anyone out there has any suggestions I would be more than grateful!

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hi

was the existing atf oil red by any chance, did u ever add 2 x tubes of Dr Tranny

see from jan u topped it up and you’ve lost atf fluid again

may i ask what procedure did u follow , did u check the oil level with the aircon on or off and with the engine running or off plse

think u need to see a ZF specialist as the garage u went to obviously doesn’t know what there doing, don’t understand with them saying about the clutches being disabled as u need the torque converter to lock up to get any drive

if u go onto the zf website they will have approved garage list and must be a pain not being able to drive it and getting it done like yesterday

at least then u will find out 100% what the fault is, but without it being inspected by a specialist it’s a bit of the unknown

there are different tests to eliminate drive line , glycol , sensors , etc but don’t want to start listing the tests as i think it would be best seeing a specialist

know that’s not much help to u and plse let us know how u get on

Just looking at a different point of view ,Could it be a miss fire 7 cylinders then onto 8 back to seven that would cause a judder on a hill and a change in rpm....

Lifeguard oil should be a straw colour and yes it has a pungent sort of odour.

If the smell is a burnt, it could indicate worn clutch plates.

Most often, the torque converter judder is between 30-50 going up a slight incline on light throttle - the TQ (why we refer to it as a TQ rather than TC I am not sure - but anyhow!) then begins to judder as the LUC modulates between on and off to manage the amount of TQ slippage.

Juddering while accelerating up hill, could indeed be a misfire - I get it on occasion with our new charge (albeit the ZF5 box) and I know that is down to a misfire as I need to clean the VANOS solenoids I think! Anyhow, a stutter and judder could be a misfire....

TQ judder is accompanied in many cases with a drone that fluctuates with rev needle bounce.

If you can do some live data of the LUC mode while the engine is running and you experience the judder you may see a correlation with LUC mode and judder - if the LUC is in time with the judder that will indicate a possible cause.... else you may find the cause is not the gearbox.

gold rover said:

Surprised @holidaychicken, @Bemble or @Saint.V8 haven't been drawn by this one. They might be the guys with ideas?

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@holidaychicken is probably tied up at the mo. I've forgotten where I left him.

gstuart said:

hi

was the existing atf oil red by any chance, did u ever add 2 x tubes of Dr Tranny

see from jan u topped it up and you’ve lost atf fluid again

may i ask what procedure did u follow , did u check the oil level with the aircon on or off and with the engine running or off plse

think u need to see a ZF specialist as the garage u went to obviously doesn’t know what there doing, don’t understand with them saying about the clutches being disabled as u need the torque converter to lock up to get any drive

if u go onto the zf website they will have approved garage list and must be a pain not being able to drive it and getting it done like yesterday

at least then u will find out 100% what the fault is, but without it being inspected by a specialist it’s a bit of the unknown

there are different tests to eliminate drive line , glycol , sensors , etc but don’t want to start listing the tests as i think it would be best seeing a specialist

know that’s not much help to u and plse let us know how u get on

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I do need to sort the leak out but by adding oil it didn't make a difference, I don't think you understood my post, I went to the garage to simply check the oil level, the torque converter lock up clutch from my understanding makes gear changes smoother etc. The info I've got on the lock up clutch has come from posts on forums from specialists such as @Bemble, he did a read out using live data stream to show the actions of the lock up clutch when in drive and when in sport/manual mode.

I agree I need to speak to someone who knows the problems of these gearboxes off the top of their head hence why I'm trying to get the attention of someone who knows so i dont get absolutely shafted by someone who says I just need a new gearbox and torque converter without even seeing the car which is all I seem to be getting from people

Danastle1992 said:

I do need to sort the leak out but by adding oil it didn't make a difference, I don't think you understood my post, I went to the garage to simply check the oil level, the torque converter lock up clutch from my understanding makes gear changes smoother etc. The info I've got on the lock up clutch has come from posts on forums from specialists such as @Bemble, he did a read out using live data stream to show the actions of the lock up clutch when in drive and when in sport/manual mode.

I agree I need to speak to someone who knows the problems of these gearboxes off the top of their head hence why I'm trying to get the attention of someone who knows so i dont get absolutely shafted by someone who says I just need a new gearbox and torque converter without even seeing the car which is all I seem to be getting from people

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hope u get it all sorted out

Danastle1992 said:

I do need to sort the leak out but by adding oil it didn't make a difference, I don't think you understood my post, I went to the garage to simply check the oil level, the torque converter lock up clutch from my understanding makes gear changes smoother etc. The info I've got on the lock up clutch has come from posts on forums from specialists such as @Bemble, he did a read out using live data stream to show the actions of the lock up clutch when in drive and when in sport/manual mode.

I agree I need to speak to someone who knows the problems of these gearboxes off the top of their head hence why I'm trying to get the attention of someone who knows so i dont get absolutely shafted by someone who says I just need a new gearbox and torque converter without even seeing the car which is all I seem to be getting from people

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I would say the people who have given advice on this forum fulfil that criteria. Certain members on here know these vehicles better than they know their own name. Apart from which , you're asking for help on a virtual medium, therefore no-one on here has the option but to give their opinion 'without even seeing the vehicle'. Which is what will happen in every situation, where you ask in any fashion, other than taking it to someone. I'm not sure how you expect anything other than that.
You have been given lots of information /advice, it is now time to bite the bullet and take it to a mechanic, if you want advice from someone who has seen it.

Danastle1992 said:

I do need to sort the leak out but by adding oil it didn't make a difference, I don't think you understood my post, I went to the garage to simply check the oil level, the torque converter lock up clutch from my understanding makes gear changes smoother etc. The info I've got on the lock up clutch has come from posts on forums from specialists such as @Bemble, he did a read out using live data stream to show the actions of the lock up clutch when in drive and when in sport/manual mode.

I agree I need to speak to someone who knows the problems of these gearboxes off the top of their head hence why I'm trying to get the attention of someone who knows so i dont get absolutely shafted by someone who says I just need a new gearbox and torque converter without even seeing the car which is all I seem to be getting from people

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Bemble / RRPhil is the undisputed champion when it comes to transmission problems and Saint is his 2 I/C.

Without going over all the detail, my ZF5HP24 had a TC issue where by driving slowly up a slight incline under light throttle would produce the rumble and i had slight rev counter needle bounce in time and when the LUC locked fully at around 55 - 60 mph all would be silent.
I imagine the 6 speed is similar in design and I understand the transmission is robust other than the solenoids which i recall reading Phil's words about.
You reference the clutches wearing and killing the TC, you may be confusing the GM box in the TD6 that when the TC clutch lunches itself and eats the metal, that will find it's way into the main transmission rendering that in need of a rebuild.
Your TC is not there for smooth gear changes, it is much like your clutch on manual car but rather than being engaged by lifting the pedal, it is engaged by the increase of fluid pressure as the revs increase which engages your drive - that is my limited understanding. You may be referencing the constant slip of the LUC charateristic which is designed to remove vibration again as i understand it, up until it is fully locked up at the 60 ish mph.

Vibration can be caused by injector issues but i would imagine when you had your codes read it was over all the systems.

In my mind if you have the rumble and fluctuating rpm it is your TC not transmission but if you have low oil then that can reduce pressure on the LUC.

I am far from an expert, i have a basic understanding which may not even be correct but i think you need to be getting your TC properly diagnosed and potentially changed which if its the same as mine can be achieved without stripping the transmission. i would be getting a TC from JPAT or Sussex Auto Parts.

gstuart said:

hope u get it all sorted out

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After reading the last few posts again I would like to apologise @gstuart for being so abrupt, I know it's not an excuse but I am just so frustrated and clutching at straws for answers now as every specialist i speak to, even ZF approved, say over the phone 'the whole lot needs rebuilding, give me 3.5-4k and we will sort it for you' This is not the answer I am looking for as I would like to investigate and more than likely tackle the problem myself, I am a fully qualified mechanic with access to a ramp etc and i've rebuilt manual gearboxes, engines etc but this automatic jobby is a complete new world for me. I have done extensive research for months and months now and feel confident I could rebuild the box myself as I can make the tools etc to remove clutch packs and other things. The only thing that worries me about rebuilding the box is the measurements for end float and clutch packs etc as I can't seem to access that info anywhere at the moment. I appreciate you taking the time to read and reply to this thread and hope you accept my apology.

holidaychicken said:

Bemble / RRPhil is the undisputed champion when it comes to transmission problems and Saint is his 2 I/C.

Without going over all the detail, my ZF5HP24 had a TC issue where by driving slowly up a slight incline under light throttle would produce the rumble and i had slight rev counter needle bounce in time and when the LUC locked fully at around 55 - 60 mph all would be silent.
I imagine the 6 speed is similar in design and I understand the transmission is robust other than the solenoids which i recall reading Phil's words about.
You reference the clutches wearing and killing the TC, you may be confusing the GM box in the TD6 that when the TC clutch lunches itself and eats the metal, that will find it's way into the main transmission rendering that in need of a rebuild.
Your TC is not there for smooth gear changes, it is much like your clutch on manual car but rather than being engaged by lifting the pedal, it is engaged by the increase of fluid pressure as the revs increase which engages your drive - that is my limited understanding. You may be referencing the constant slip of the LUC charateristic which is designed to remove vibration again as i understand it, up until it is fully locked up at the 60 ish mph.

Vibration can be caused by injector issues but i would imagine when you had your codes read it was over all the systems.

In my mind if you have the rumble and fluctuating rpm it is your TC not transmission but if you have low oil then that can reduce pressure on the LUC.

I am far from an expert, i have a basic understanding which may not even be correct but i think you need to be getting your TC properly diagnosed and potentially changed which if its the same as mine can be achieved without stripping the transmission. i would be getting a TC from JPAT or Sussex Auto Parts.

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Hi @holidaychicken thanks for the reply, yes this is the exact issue im talking about, when I referenced the lock up clutch in the torque converter I was referring to the 'constant slip' you mention. This happens whether in drive, manual or sport mode. And it does judder on a slight incline between 30 and 55 ish mph as well as the fluctuation in revs.

I have access to SDD and a lynx evo and both say there are no faults within the engine or transmission (just loads of random bulbs out when there isn't and speakers and unrelated things that don't really exist for some reason) which is pointing me towards the mechanical fault as these systems are so advanced and designed to pick up any little fault that rears it's head. So that leaves (correct me if i'm wrong) either the torque converter, clutch packs possibly slipping somewhere, the square block seal or any other seal for that matter in the box, a worn bush maybe? Solenoids in the mechatronic valve chest, a leaking seal between the two halves of the valve chest, something I have missed or a combination of some.

I am hoping it is just a torque converter issue as this is the cheapest option BUT if it is worth my while going over the box at the same time then that will have to be done.

My worry is that the car has now clocked on 181,000 miles and in the massive wad of receipts and work done, there is no mention of a gearbox service at all so you can understand why I am concerned for the health of the box.

Dan.

If the clutch packs are slipping, a fault would be logged as the input speed would be different to the output speed.

I guess you read my previous post.....

Agree with saint, if you have no other symptoms than the vibration and you are a mechanic with a ramp then whip out the transmission, replace the TC and chuck it back in. A few of us have changed the transmission on our drives with a set of bent spoons and a weaving loom so you should be able to do it blindfolded.
If you still have problems then take it back out and strip it down and have a go at the rebuild or pay the man. I had the support of Bemble and a mate which helped massively but also didn't need the vehicle as my daily drive.
if you don't need it daily then what are you waiting for ??

Unfortunately most garages will replace the whole box as a matter of insurance for you and themselves.
Unless they are capable of dismantling the gearbox to verify that the torque converter is the only fault.. most may not have the tooling to do this and will send it off or replace off the shelf. (So to speak). It is a lot of work and oil to go through to find out that it wasn't just the torque converter that was at fault! I had this with a Renault Clio, using the AD4 autobox. I ended up rebuilding it myself. Renault wanted 3000€... Unfortunately I would not have done this for a client. Specialists are familiar with these complicated boxes and a few on here are also, but any garage will just swap it out!!
Alternatively rebuild it yourself or remove it and have it checked/rebuilt.
You'll save a fortune if you could remove it...not an easy call ...

@Danastle1992 , that is most appreciated and thank u

understand ur going from pillar to post but the guys here are extremely knowledgeable and very helpful

Danastle1992 said:

Hi @holidaychicken thanks for the reply, yes this is the exact issue im talking about, when I referenced the lock up clutch in the torque converter I was referring to the 'constant slip' you mention. This happens whether in drive, manual or sport mode. And it does judder on a slight incline between 30 and 55 ish mph as well as the fluctuation in revs.

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The constant slip is a design feature that prevents vibration and is supposed to occur, the TC is almost always in some form of slip up until the LUC is fully locked at 56 mph ish.

Your vibration is however not as nature intended and is a resonance caused by the worn 'clutch plate' as i understand it, Bemble or Saint could tell you why but i guess it is the transmission trying to compensate for an unpredictable drive characteristic.

if Bemble drops by he can pick through the bones of this thread and sort the wheat, if i have any, from the 'chuff'

have a look at this if you don't already have it but if it's just the TC you shouldn't need any of this
https://jpat.co.uk/uploads/1/0/3/5/103549764/94__zf_6_6hp26_formerly_ford_4d.pdf

And the TC refurb - which is a very specialist subjust- definitely don't buy one from your local Chinese

https://jpat.co.uk/torque-converter-remanfacture.html
This may also help, check it is the right version as there may be a variation from vehicle to vehicle and after all the RR is 'special'
you shouldn't need any of this if it is just your TC
http://overcoiled.com/cars/Aston/ZF Repair Manual.pdf

https://www.zf.com/global/media/med...ergreifend_1/ZF_SI_Oelwechselkit_50145_EN.pdf

As above, the LUC in the L322 is designed to slip, the system is set to maintain around a 3% slip factor - this is because they didn't fit a torsional damping arrangement on the drive train between engine and gearbox, so to prevent engine vibration due to knock the 'allowed' the LUC to slip to prevent this vibration being transmitted through the car....once above 56mph the engine is turning so fast, the natural torsional vibration isn't noticeable so they LUC locks up totally.

When the LUC wears out (because of this slip pattern) it begins to judder - like a worn clutch when you hold it just on the biting point - and it is most evident between 30-50mph on a slight gradient on light throttle.....

The Live data traces Bemble/RRPhil posts, show the LUC coming on and off in time with the vibration you can feel.....as I said above if you get a live trace done and you can see the LUC trace is locking up in time with the vibration - it is a LUC/TQ issue.....if the vibration happens at other such times, it could be a misfire in the engine.....

If the clutch packs in the gearbox are so worn to allow excessive slippage and clutch pack judder you would have a fault code logged as the system will detect differences in engine input speed and gearbox output speed and throw a fault.

Another common issue that plagues the ZF5 box, is a bearing in between two clutch packs, this can fall apart, allowing the clutch packs to move about....they are sealed with an O ring, and this movement wears the O ring out to a point it leaks hydraulic pressure and a drive clutch starts slipping, this in turn makes the system activate the LUC more to prevent slippage - but this has been reported to bring a fault to be logged....but it is another cause of the ZF5 lunching itself as this constant slippage deposits lots of friction material into the oil, this acts as an abrasive and can ruin other friction surfaces and the valve spools in short order!

I'd get it on a live trace to see the activity of the LUC first and see what is occurring there.!

Much appreciated everybody for your replies, there is a lot of valuable info there! I think the next step is like @Saint.V8 said to get it onto a live data stream and check if the vibration occurs in time with the lock up clutch then go from there, hoping I've caught it early enough just to need the torque converter and a damn good service!

@holidaychicken thanks for that info I will be on to them for a price on the torque converter and try to organise a free ramp for the day, hopefully this sorts my problem!