We are now on 5/30 oil for the trucks, can see potential issues with the older 1.5 million km machines.
Oil and filter recommendations please…
- Thread starter Frustrated Seriesist
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We are now on 5/30 oil for the trucks, can see potential issues with the older 1.5 million km machines.
Oil is a very complex subject and I'm no expert, but in my view you can use oil of any viscosity which is listed in the handbook, subject to climate and engine condition. This means anything with a lower viscosity of 5, 10, 15 or 20, and an upper viscoity of 40 or 50, dependent on the climate and how worn your engine is. A 5W20 is even shown in the 'Extreme Conditions and Overseas' table - not for temperate UK use obviously!
I'd agree 20w50 is potentially a bit marginal for the UK in winter - ideally have something that flows better at start up, a 10w or 15w. At 0 deg C the viscosity of a 20w50 is approx 2900 centistokes (cSt) while a 15w50 is 1200 cSt at the same temp and a 10w40 is 1100 cSt (approx). The cold viscosity difference between a 20wXX and 15wXX is massive, between 15wXX and 10wXX is not much at all. For comparison ta 20w50 will be only around 18 cSt at 100 deg C which is a tiny fraction of its viscosity at low temperature.
I think it is worthwhile using decent quality oil, some cheaper oils aren't that great and may have minimal additive packages. They may also not meet any API/ACEA standards, or might say they do, but it is an obsolete standard no longer certified (e.g. API SF). SN is current, anything before SL is obsolete and no longer tested. Some of the 'classic' branded stuff is overpriced basic oils meeting obsolete specs in a nice tin. Base oil type is important. Group I oils are minimally refined and contain up to 20% impurities which don't do much lubricating. So on that basis 'cheap' oils are not actually that good value for money if you are paying 20% of the price for impurities that don't actually lubricate. Group II oils are more highly refined (hydrotreated/hydrocracked) mineral oils and contain <10% impurities thus are much better quality for similar prices to the cheap stuff. Group III oils are very highly refined mineral oils called synthetic by some, and Groups IV and V are proper synthetics. 'Semi-synthetics' will be a blend of mineral and synthetic base oils. A mineral 20w50 is a 20-weight oil with additives to make it 'thicken' to 50-weight at 100 degC.
Determining base oil spec especially between Groups I and II can be difficult but references to 'highly refined' or 'hydrotreated' reveal when they are Group II. Group III base stocks are a very highly refined mineral oil but allowed to be labelled synthetic since a dispute by Mobil and Castrol some years ago. They often represent good value for money - well-regarded Penrite 10W50 Group III 'synthetic' costs less than Castrol 20w50 Group I mineral.
I've used Classic Oils 20w50 which has a decent spec, but it is Group I and has gone up in price so currently using Duckhams 20w50 which is Group II base oils. I got a bargain price for some Gulf synthetic 15w50 and am about to use that in a Series 3 so I'll see if it leaks out all over the floor.
Regarding synthetics damaging engines etc I'm a bit perplexed. If an oil is labelled API SL or ACEA A3 B4 it has been tested by the appropriate agency and meets those certified standards, whether it is synthetic or mineral. Compared side by side a synthetic oil will always outperform a mineral oil; it will be more stable, oxidise less over time, more tolerant of temperature extremes, and not shear (go out of grade) as quickly as they need no polymers to thicken them at higher temperatures as added to mineral oils. Cheaper mineral oils may be in grade when new but the impurities and cheap additives mean they shear down under stress more quickly and the impurities oxidise and turn to sludge. If a synthetic is the same viscosity as the mineral it is replacing I'm not sure why it would leak more, unless it is cleaning out dirt that has been preventing leaks. As I said I'm about to find this out for myself, and maybe I'll be back on here in a few months crying into my beer...
A lot of oil companies do not provide much information and labels are more advertising blurb than actual specifications, but two excellent information sources I've found are the Classic Oils website https://www.classic-oils.net/Oils-b...e-Oils/Classic-20W50-Multigrades-Mineral-base and the Penrite Knowledge Centre site: https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge.../197/What-is-the-Penrite-Knowledge-Centre/461
I'd agree 20w50 is potentially a bit marginal for the UK in winter - ideally have something that flows better at start up, a 10w or 15w. At 0 deg C the viscosity of a 20w50 is approx 2900 centistokes (cSt) while a 15w50 is 1200 cSt at the same temp and a 10w40 is 1100 cSt (approx). The cold viscosity difference between a 20wXX and 15wXX is massive, between 15wXX and 10wXX is not much at all. For comparison ta 20w50 will be only around 18 cSt at 100 deg C which is a tiny fraction of its viscosity at low temperature.
I think it is worthwhile using decent quality oil, some cheaper oils aren't that great and may have minimal additive packages. They may also not meet any API/ACEA standards, or might say they do, but it is an obsolete standard no longer certified (e.g. API SF). SN is current, anything before SL is obsolete and no longer tested. Some of the 'classic' branded stuff is overpriced basic oils meeting obsolete specs in a nice tin. Base oil type is important. Group I oils are minimally refined and contain up to 20% impurities which don't do much lubricating. So on that basis 'cheap' oils are not actually that good value for money if you are paying 20% of the price for impurities that don't actually lubricate. Group II oils are more highly refined (hydrotreated/hydrocracked) mineral oils and contain <10% impurities thus are much better quality for similar prices to the cheap stuff. Group III oils are very highly refined mineral oils called synthetic by some, and Groups IV and V are proper synthetics. 'Semi-synthetics' will be a blend of mineral and synthetic base oils. A mineral 20w50 is a 20-weight oil with additives to make it 'thicken' to 50-weight at 100 degC.
Determining base oil spec especially between Groups I and II can be difficult but references to 'highly refined' or 'hydrotreated' reveal when they are Group II. Group III base stocks are a very highly refined mineral oil but allowed to be labelled synthetic since a dispute by Mobil and Castrol some years ago. They often represent good value for money - well-regarded Penrite 10W50 Group III 'synthetic' costs less than Castrol 20w50 Group I mineral.
I've used Classic Oils 20w50 which has a decent spec, but it is Group I and has gone up in price so currently using Duckhams 20w50 which is Group II base oils. I got a bargain price for some Gulf synthetic 15w50 and am about to use that in a Series 3 so I'll see if it leaks out all over the floor.
Regarding synthetics damaging engines etc I'm a bit perplexed. If an oil is labelled API SL or ACEA A3 B4 it has been tested by the appropriate agency and meets those certified standards, whether it is synthetic or mineral. Compared side by side a synthetic oil will always outperform a mineral oil; it will be more stable, oxidise less over time, more tolerant of temperature extremes, and not shear (go out of grade) as quickly as they need no polymers to thicken them at higher temperatures as added to mineral oils. Cheaper mineral oils may be in grade when new but the impurities and cheap additives mean they shear down under stress more quickly and the impurities oxidise and turn to sludge. If a synthetic is the same viscosity as the mineral it is replacing I'm not sure why it would leak more, unless it is cleaning out dirt that has been preventing leaks. As I said I'm about to find this out for myself, and maybe I'll be back on here in a few months crying into my beer...
A lot of oil companies do not provide much information and labels are more advertising blurb than actual specifications, but two excellent information sources I've found are the Classic Oils website https://www.classic-oils.net/Oils-b...e-Oils/Classic-20W50-Multigrades-Mineral-base and the Penrite Knowledge Centre site: https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge.../197/What-is-the-Penrite-Knowledge-Centre/461
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Turboman
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Cheap oil breaks down quicker, which is why it is good to change it often, thus getting free engine flushes as well.
The reason synthetic oil is not good in old engines is not to do with leaks. It is because it is simply too slippery, and gets past the oil control rings too easily.
Citizen Kane
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Interesting. I hadn't appreciated that a highly refined mineral oil could be sold as a synthetic. I guess when Land Rover selected Mobil 1 as an approved oil for its engines it was still a genuine synthetic oil. I suspect there weren't many alternative synthetic or semi synthetic oils around at the time for Land Rover to test.
I had a quick look in the owners book that came with my 130, at the time Land Rover had a range of semi synthetic oils that were recommended for the normally asperated diesel engine. As this is essentially the same as the 2.25 Diesel its probably safe to say that both highly refined mineral oils and genuine synthetic oils are safe to use.
Let us know how you get on, I've been running a 45 year old engine on synthetic oils for 20 years or more and cant say I've noticed any leaks or consumption issues.
Will do - should get it changed in the next week or so. A reference for the Group III base oils being synthetic but derived from mineral crude oil is at The Penrite Knowledge Centre, which states the following:
"Full Synthetic oils can be engineered for many different applications. They can be derived from naturally occuring resources such as crude oil that has been serverely hydrocracked to where the carbon chain has been altered. They are defined by the API as Group III base oils".
See: https://penriteoil.com.au/knowledge-centre/Base-Oils/238/What-are-BASE-OILS/999
Bobsticle
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I like to use Trex with a rag stuffed in the sump to soak up the bits of batter.
each to his own.
each to his own.
after rebuilding my 88 petrol engine i am just about to change the running in oil,i am going with a classsic mineral oil, any branded one in a metal can, opies have a couple on their site that look suitable, i may stretch to castrol for the first fill
i read that changing to a detergent oil a can loosen up all the sludge at one go in an old engine and cause problems,filter etc
i read that changing to a detergent oil a can loosen up all the sludge at one go in an old engine and cause problems,filter etc
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If you've rebuilt the engine it shouldn't have any sludge at all. Sludge results from using low quality oil and not changing it often enough, exacerbated by short journey use and/or malfunctioning thermostat. Best to start off on the right foot using decent quality oils with detergent to keep the engine clean and regular changes to keep it that way. If it was a rattly old mega-miler with sludgy grey/black gunge visible inside the oil cap then maybe it's a factor, but if there's that much sludge, detergents or not is going to make little difference to its very limited remaining life.
Castrol is £36.95 for a 1-gal (4.5L) tin at both Classic Oils and Opie. Quite a price rise in recent months! Have a look at:
https://www.classic-oils.net/Classic-Oils-Heritage-20W50
If you want a Group I base oil I'd get Classic Oils 20w50 for the following reasons:
- It meets API SL spec which is still a current spec, and widely used for higher spec classic car oils. Anything prior to SL is no longer a current spec, as in it is no longer tested by the API.
- It has 1300ppm ZDDP which is in the desirable 1000ppm - 1300ppm window.
- It is £23.95 for 5 litres instead of £36.95 for 4.5 litres (1 gallon tin). Crumbs that's a big price difference when the difference in quantity is taken into account.
Or for the same sort of money as Castrol you can get get Penrite 10w50 (Group III synth on highly refined mineral base) or Valvoline VR-1 20w50 (at least Group II, possibly Group II+ - widely used for Rover V8s), and you get 5 litres not a gallon/4.5 litres in both cases.
https://www.classic-oils.net/Penrite-HPR-10
https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-73741-...i9bqO6hHIj0YJIjOk6RMFhDx0s_iQPKUaAjSzEALw_wcB
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So I put the Gulf synthetic 15w50 in the Series 3 V8 today. I'll keep tabs on it and update this thread as I get observations. Since I changed the non-functioning thermostat (engine was running overly cool) it is a lot cleaner inside the engine too - as viewed through the filler cap. That's after 12 months/1200 miles of Duckham's Q 20w50.
jonsnow
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I can recommend Motorcraft - Fuel Filter or MNJWS. As for me, the best resource with filters where you can find the Fuel Filter for 6.7 PowerStroke, the best option for your car, I also found a manual for replacing the filter myself
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nickjaxe
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When the handbook for my S3 was drawn up....1974.....oil tech was way behind what we have today....car engine are still made of steel and have sheel bearing....the piston still have steel rings....
Cannot see for the life of me why my landrover will spit its dummy out with a modern semi synthetic oil....or fully synthetic for that reason.
Cannot see for the life of me why my landrover will spit its dummy out with a modern semi synthetic oil....or fully synthetic for that reason.
I entirely agree. If oil meets the relevant API or ACEA spec, it performs to a certain required level, irrespective of whether the base oil is mineral, highly refined mineral, semi or full synthetic. The 200 TDI is substantially the same engine as the 2.25 and it was specified with semi (and possibly full) synth oils by the manufacturer as they were built well into the1990s. Many Rover V8s have been run on synthetic as they were in production until the mid-2000s. This notion synth is somehow "too slippery" or "too thin" is odd - oil is meant to be slippery to prevent the engine lunching itself. If the viscosity is what is in the handbook it won't be "too thin". There is no binary choice between mineral and synthetic; a lot of synthetic uses a mineral base oil highly refined, semi-synths are mixtures of the two, mineral oils themselves come in different specifications where they are more or less refined, with good or indifferent/minimal additive packages. Mineral oil contains added polymers to make it perform like a higher viscosity oil at tiger temps, higher quality synthetics do not need these.
A major reason why engines last twice the mileage these days, and oil change intervals have migrated from 3,000 miles to up to 20,000 miles is massive advances in oil technology over the last 50 years. Why use an old spec Group 1 mineral with 20% impurities when there are much better options available.
nickjaxe
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MIK87 could not have put it better myself Sir.
Bobsticle
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Coz it’s cheap ya twonk.
Coz it’s cheap ya twonk.
But is it? Some slick marketing hype sells Castrol Group 1 mineral at the same/slightly more than a Penrite Group 3 synth as I said earlier in the thread. In any case, the price difference is irrelevant in the scheme of things - compared to, say, the price of an engine rebuild. And Halfords 20w50 recommended oil change interval of every 2,000 - 3,000 miles because it is a basic oil with minimal additives hat shears down and goes out of grade quickly. Using a higher quality oil and changing it 6,000 miles has got to be cheaper especially when the filter cost is taken into account (not forgetting used oil disposal as well as labour if you are not doing it yourself).
Henry_b
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I'd be wary of the 20k service interval a vehicle going 20,000 miles before oil changes, this would be OK if the vehicle only did long consistant runs, however subject to short journeys general abuse and enviromental conditions and of course fuel quality should be subject to a service of at least half that mileage, vauxhall and Jaguar are two I know of that monitor the amount of cold starts and short runs, this determines the service interval..
Most series Land rovers won't do 3000mi per year and with an engine that is 40+ years old I'd be inclined to to a minimum of two oil changes per year.
As for engine longevity most american V8's from the 1950s onwards could easily do 200k + without issue, and over here in Britain Rolls Royce L series V8 was another easy 200k motor aswell as the venerable Buick/Rover V8
Oil detergent packages have improved dramatically however this is an argument that has been brewing for ever
Bobsticle
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Hello. It’s nearly sixty years old. Your so called ‘modern’ engines are bean cans within 15 years.
Nuff said
Nuff said
Colthebrummie
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I use the cheapest oil in Compo cos it bloody leaks out again. I have'nt done an oil change in five years cos it changes itself.
Col
Col
I'd be wary of the 20k service interval a vehicle going 20,000 miles before oil changes, this would be OK if the vehicle only did long consistant runs, however subject to short journeys general abuse and enviromental conditions and of course fuel quality should be subject to a service of at least half that mileage, vauxhall and Jaguar are two I know of that monitor the amount of cold starts and short runs, this determines the service interval..
Most series Land rovers won't do 3000mi per year and with an engine that is 40+ years old I'd be inclined to to a minimum of two oil changes per year.
As for engine longevity most american V8's from the 1950s onwards could easily do 200k + without issue, and over here in Britain Rolls Royce L series V8 was another easy 200k motor aswell as the venerable Buick/Rover V8
Oil detergent packages have improved dramatically however this is an argument that has been brewing for ever
I'm using the modern 20,000 mile service interval solely to illustrate the scale of oil technology improvements over the last 50 years. My Alfa Giulietta interval was 18k miles and VW Caravelle was 2 years/20k miles. Irrespective of my preference to change it sooner, it is the manufacturer recommendation.
If using decent quality oil I think there is nothing to be gained by oil changes more often than twice a year on a Series LR doing 1,000 - 3,000 miles. The reason for more frequent oil changes is because cheap oil oxidises even when sitting in the sump.
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