Modus Operandi for rescues ...

private penguin · Dec 30, 2017

There'll always be those who have been careful and it's still gone wrong. Whether its that a failed recovery has led to 2 vehicles becoming stuck, whether its that road conditions have deteriorated, or a technical failure.

There will be those who are reckless and have got themselves into a mess (e.g. the recent welsh incident)

Had the OP in the welsh incident posted that the vehicle had been stuck for a couple of days, conditions were poor, etc, then he wouldnt have got the immediate response that he did - and we wouldnt have had two members stuck. However, what is perhaps more likely is that highly equipped volunteers from further away who wanted the challenge of recovering something very stuck might have planned a rescue mission in a less time critical way.

There was another thread recently where a van had gone off the edge of a road. Help was clearly needed pretty urgently and, whilst LZIR didnt provide the rescue in the end, there were people willing to go and help.

Perhaps we need to find a way of diferentiating between those jobs that are "emergencies" (e.g. family stranded on an icy hilltop) and those jobs that could be better planned and carried out "at leisure".

johnlad · Dec 30, 2017

private penguin said:
There'll always be those who have been careful and it's still gone wrong. Whether its that a failed recovery has led to 2 vehicles becoming stuck, whether its that road conditions have deteriorated, or a technical failure.

There will be those who are reckless and have got themselves into a mess (e.g. the recent welsh incident)

Had the OP in the welsh incident posted that the vehicle had been stuck for a couple of days, conditions were poor, etc, then he wouldnt have got the immediate response that he did - and we wouldnt have had two members stuck. However, what is perhaps more likely is that highly equipped volunteers from further away who wanted the challenge of recovering something very stuck might have planned a rescue mission in a less time critical way.

There was another thread recently where a van had gone off the edge of a road. Help was clearly needed pretty urgently and, whilst LZIR didnt provide the rescue in the end, there were people willing to go and help.

Perhaps we need to find a way of diferentiating between those jobs that are "emergencies" (e.g. family stranded on an icy hilltop) and those jobs that could be better planned and carried out "at leisure".

Difference being the van that was stuck was driven by a member of here with a good few posts and been a member for years

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

private penguin said:
Perhaps we need to find a way of diferentiating between those jobs that are "emergencies" (e.g. family stranded on an icy hilltop) and those jobs that could be better planned and carried out "at leisure".

We do try, but are at the mercy of the info available.
One of the considerations is that vehicles have been known to be robbed if left unattended. Particularly if whereabouts are known.

neilly · Dec 30, 2017

The Mad Hat Man said:
One of the considerations is that vehicles have been known to be robbed if left unattended. Particularly if whereabouts are known.

Surely that should not be a criteria if it is putting LZer's at risk due to the terrain or weather.

Cheers

private penguin · Dec 30, 2017

johnlad said:
Difference being the van that was stuck was driven by a member of here with a good few posts and been a member for years

I can see why some members would not want to respond to a newbie. Equally i can see why someone in need of help might come across this forum and ask for help.

If we are going to judge which jobs we respond to then where do we draw the line? I've been a member for 18 months and have about 600 posts... is that enough?

If someone posted to say their young family were stuck in a broken down 4x4 on a byway on a cold night and the AA wouldnt go up the byway to them, should we leave them there or should we at least try to rescue the passengers, even if we leave the car.

Maybe it needs to be made clear somewhere that the priority must always be the wellbeing of humans, and that the recovery of vehicles is a secondary priority. I think many of us would be willing to take greater risks to our own vehicles to ensure the safety of people than we would to help recover a vehicle.

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

neilly said:
Surely that should not be a criteria if it is putting LZer's at risk due to the terrain or weather.

Cheers

of course not.

but then "WE DONT PUT LZERS AT RISK!"

private penguin · Dec 30, 2017

The Mad Hat Man said:
We do try, but are at the mercy of the info available.
One of the considerations is that vehicles have been known to be robbed if left unattended. Particularly if whereabouts are known.

Totally agree - although in the welsh case i think someone would have been doing the owner a favour (or at least they would if he'd had insurance) by nicking it

But wellbeing of vehicles always has to come secondary to wellbeing of humans surely?

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

private penguin said:
Totally agree - although in the welsh case i think someone would have been doing the owner a favour (or at least they would if he'd had insurance) by nicking it

But wellbeing of vehicles always has to come secondary to wellbeing of humans surely?

exactly.

Dippypud · Dec 30, 2017

private penguin said:
I can see why some members would not want to respond to a newbie. Equally i can see why someone in need of help might come across this forum and ask for help.

If we are going to judge which jobs we respond to then where do we draw the line? I've been a member for 18 months and have about 600 posts... is that enough?

If someone posted to say their young family were stuck in a broken down 4x4 on a byway on a cold night and the AA wouldnt go up the byway to them, should we leave them there or should we at least try to rescue the passengers, even if we leave the car.

Maybe it needs to be made clear somewhere that the priority must always be the wellbeing of humans, and that the recovery of vehicles is a secondary priority. I think many of us would be willing to take greater risks to our own vehicles to ensure the safety of people than we would to help recover a vehicle.

I think I remember a case that the occupants were walked out down to the farmhouse, the vehicle left for the farmer to recover in the daylight ...

johnlad · Dec 30, 2017

private penguin said:
I can see why some members would not want to respond to a newbie. Equally i can see why someone in need of help might come across this forum and ask for help.

If we are going to judge which jobs we respond to then where do we draw the line? I've been a member for 18 months and have about 600 posts... is that enough?

If someone posted to say their young family were stuck in a broken down 4x4 on a byway on a cold night and the AA wouldnt go up the byway to them, should we leave them there or should we at least try to rescue the passengers, even if we leave the car.

Maybe it needs to be made clear somewhere that the priority must always be the wellbeing of humans, and that the recovery of vehicles is a secondary priority. I think many of us would be willing to take greater risks to our own vehicles to ensure the safety of people than we would to help recover a vehicle.

Rescuing people is a different job than rescuing a car, and if conditions are to bad for the aa to rescue the family then perhaps a properly coordinated rescue is needed by police/mountain rescue as opposed to a forum of amateurs

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

johnlad said:
Rescuing people is a different job than rescuing a car, and if conditions are to bad for the aa to rescue the family then perhaps a properly coordinated rescue is needed by police/mountain rescue as opposed to a forum of amateurs

who said amateurs?

One of those involved in the Welsh do is a mountain rescue wallah.

johnlad · Dec 30, 2017

The Mad Hat Man said:
who said amateurs?

One of those involved in the Welsh do is a mountain rescue wallah.

And who were the others?

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

johnlad said:
And who were the others?

irrelevant

you only need one in charge.

neilly · Dec 30, 2017

The Mad Hat Man said:
but then "WE DONT PUT LZERS AT RISK!"

No need to shout ...I understand what you are saying.

So going on what happened Yesterday and the point of this thread. Is what can be done to stop or alleviate the risk of what happened where two members were put at risk.

As I see it and I have written it before, the requestor for help should have their vehicle details checked. If they do not have Insurance , Tax and MOT then the request denied.

If they are new to the forum then they should be asked how they found the forum. Plus asked if they are in immediate danger. If they say they are and then disclose they have had their car stranded for three days to the person who attends , then that attendee should walk away as they are obviously using the LZIR as a rescue service for free.

Then as has been said before, the attending LZ'er who is there to help should make sure they check and understand what they are getting into NOT taking someone elses word for it. All due respect to @brian47 but, if you are not capable of physically getting out and walking the route you are going to take then driving it blind is not the best scenario.

Finally , do not be afraid to call for more help. If the rescuee can be retrieved and the ehicle must be left then so be it, better to claim off the insurance than freeze to death worrying it will be stolen.

Cheers

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

neilly said:
No need to shout ...I understand what you are saying.

So going on what happened Yesterday and the point of this thread. Is what can be done to stop or alleviate the risk of what happened where two members were put at risk.

As I see it and I have written it before, the requestor for help should have their vehicle details checked. If they do not have Insurance , Tax and MOT then the request denied.

If they are new to the forum then they should be asked how they found the forum. Plus asked if they are in immediate danger. If they say they are and then disclose they have had their car stranded for three days to the person who attends , then that attendee should walk away as they are obviously using the LZIR as a rescue service for free.

Then as has been said before, the attending LZ'er who is there to help should make sure they check and understand what they are getting into NOT taking someone elses word for it. All due respect to @brian47 but, if you are not capable of physically getting out and walking the route you are going to take then driving it blind is not the best scenario.

Finally , do not be afraid to call for more help. If the rescuee can be retrieved and the ehicle must be left then so be it, better to claim off the insurance than freeze to death worrying it will be stolen.

Cheers

no problem. I suggest that all volunteers make those checks and ask those questions before going to check (in threes).

neilly · Dec 30, 2017

The Mad Hat Man said:
no problem. I suggest that all volunteers make those checks and ask those questions before going to check (in threes).

A sensible reponse. Is that three respondees or three vehicles??

Cheers

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

neilly said:
A sensible reponse. Is that three respondees or three vehicles??

Cheers

both.... at least.

doriz · Dec 30, 2017

I think there is clear delineation between a day out in the lanes and blowing a head gasket travelling the roads of the UK. There should be a minimum of self reliance kit in a days trails i.e. foil blankets, a brew kit etc. If I blew something catastrophic on a motorway I would call out the AA, I certainly wouldn't be anywhere near a public road without breakdown insurance as a Defender owner. That said, if you have a tow rope, a trailer or similar it is charitable to attend within a radius of where you are happy to respond. Personally I would love to help someone out as I have benefitted from LZ. You as the clever people need to decide what if anything you want to offer.

I have been in the rescue business for 3 decades, so I have a little experience of scene recce etc.

Balbas · Dec 30, 2017

The Mad Hat Man said:
who said amateurs?

One of those involved in the Welsh do is a mountain rescue wallah.

johnlad said:
And who were the others?

The Mad Hat Man said:
irrelevant

you only need one in charge.

I'm not signed up as a LZIR member, so tell me to 'f off' if you wish, but I've owned and off roaded Landys on and off for years. Although I'm unlikely to go down more than a gentle green lane these days.

I've also been a mountain rescue type, a first responder, and in the military. And I disagree with the point above. Yes it's important to have someone knowing what they're doing in charge, but everyone else also needs to have basic knowledge of what they're doing as well. Otherwise the 'leader' has to micromanage everyone else. And what happens if he/she goes down? I'm not being over dramatic when I say that - I've gone down with exposure and didn't realise it was happening, and I've seen it happen to others too.

I read the 'stuck' thread with interest and I was impressed that guys turned out - serious respect from me for doing that - but I would question the sense of someone with COPD, back and leg problems going out into the hills. Respect to you for going, but on a cold, Welsh hillside I'd argue that was an accident waiting to happen in itself. My mother has COPD and I know how debilitating it can be.

It's always difficult running a volunteer service and there are no easy answers, but I'd like to reiterate a point made to me years ago - you can't rescue anyone if you become a casualty yourself.

The Mad Hat Man · Dec 30, 2017

Balbas said:
no way - your point is as valid as others - maybe more so as having rescue experience.

I read the 'stuck' thread with interest and I was impressed that guys turned out - serious respect from me for doing that - but I would question the sense of someone with COPD, back and leg problems going out into the hills. Respect to you for going, but on a cold, Welsh hillside I'd argue that was an accident waiting to happen in itself. My mother has COPD and I know how debilitating it can be. I agree entirely, but that begs the question, should all volunteers have to supply a medical report before being accepted...... bearing in mind that sometimes just company and a flask of coffee is all thats needed until more help arrives?

It's always difficult running a volunteer service and there are no easy answers, but I'd like to reiterate a point made to me years ago - you can't rescue anyone if you become a casualty yourself. A point I have made many times, including on the Wales shout - often ignored

Modus Operandi for rescues ...

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