Maf not needed on 10p engine

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sierrafery said:
they would not know, no diesel mechanical engineer or other engine specialist would... we need to find the original electronists team from Lucas who built and programmed the ECU cos they know how they made the addaptive strategy as the data from the MAF sensor and the Engine Speed in RPM from the crank sensor are used to determine the air mass in milligrams within each cylinder on each intake stroke (mg/stroke) cos that's how the Td5 ECU is built and that's what it does, being a microprocessor not some artifficial intelligence it doesn't care how the diesel engine works while it calculates these things together with the IQ(injected quantity) then it gives the command to the injectors to release fuel into the cylinders based on those calculations, the electronic throttle inputs, MAP/IAT, FT, ECT..... that dumb ECU uses the MAF readings in it's calculations after the folowing formula: air mass = (MAF x 33333) / (RPM x 5) and the amount of fuel injected by the ECU depends on a combination of the air mass within the cylinder and the speed of the engine if the MAF fails to send signal the the ECU switches the calculation and uses MAP/IAT and then the air mass = (MAP x Cylinder Volume in cc x Molar Mass air (g/mole)) / (IAT(K) x R)..
in this formula the Lucas Td5 ECU uses the following values:
  • MAP = kPa x 100 (or milliBar x 10)
  • IAT = Kelvin x 10
  • Cyl Volume = 498
  • n(air) = 28980
  • R = 8314
that's how the ECU is built to work that's a fact as about how the diesel engine works i dont care as long as i'm speaking only about the ECU here not about the engine,

what will a remap do? will modify some data in the ECU(fuel map) as to optimise the fuelling or increase power, so if i go into the ECU and modify some figures the wrong way that ECU will send too much or too less fuel into the engine depends on how it was programmed cos the ECU doesnt give a sh*t about how the diesel engine was built to work by mr Rudolf, the ECU will do what it was programmed to do then the engine will run better or worst :cool: ... i'll not contest anything about how the engine works cos i'm speaking only about electronics here that's why i bolded the ECU so many times :)

that's it, i'm in the night shift and i have to keep myself adrenalised somehow cos it's a lack of air traffic untill the morning :D
Click to expand...
Oh now you've gone and dragged facts and reason into it
Lets get back to the bare knuckle stuff.
Can I suggest two submissions or a knock out to decide what the MAF actually does.
Actually there's a clue in the name, if it were as others suggest then it would be a VAF sensor.
 
sierrafery said:
they would not know, no diesel mechanical engineer or other engine specialist would... we need to find the original electronists team from Lucas who built and programmed the ECU cos they know how they made the addaptive strategy as the data from the MAF sensor and the Engine Speed in RPM from the crank sensor are used to determine the air mass in milligrams within each cylinder on each intake stroke (mg/stroke) cos that's how the Td5 ECU is built and that's what it does, being a microprocessor not some artifficial intelligence it doesn't care how the diesel engine works while it calculates these things together with the IQ(injected quantity) then it gives the command to the injectors to release fuel into the cylinders based on those calculations, the electronic throttle inputs, MAP/IAT, FT, ECT..... that dumb ECU uses the MAF readings in it's calculations after the folowing formula: air mass = (MAF x 33333) / (RPM x 5) and the amount of fuel injected by the ECU depends on a combination of the air mass within the cylinder and the speed of the engine if the MAF fails to send signal the the ECU switches the calculation and uses MAP/IAT and then the air mass = (MAP x Cylinder Volume in cc x Molar Mass air (g/mole)) / (IAT(K) x R)..
in this formula the Lucas Td5 ECU uses the following values:
  • MAP = kPa x 100 (or milliBar x 10)
  • IAT = Kelvin x 10
  • Cyl Volume = 498
  • n(air) = 28980
  • R = 8314
that's how the ECU is built to work that's a fact as about how the diesel engine works i dont care as long as i'm speaking only about the ECU here not about the engine,

what will a remap do? will modify some data in the ECU(fuel map) as to optimise the fuelling or increase power, so if i go into the ECU and modify some figures the wrong way that ECU will send too much or too less fuel into the engine depends on how it was programmed cos the ECU doesnt give a sh*t about how the diesel engine was built to work by mr Rudolf, the ECU will do what it was programmed to do then the engine will run better or worst :cool: ... i'll not contest anything about how the engine works cos i'm speaking only about electronics here that's why i bolded the ECU so many times :)

that's it, i'm in the night shift and i have to keep myself adrenalised somehow cos it's a lack of air traffic untill the morning :D
Click to expand...

Absolute and utter bollocks. Diesel engines are throttled by fuel, there is always too much air in the cylinders. The MAF sensor is there to report back to the ECU how much exhaust gas is being ingested when EGR is active. DIESEL ENGINES ARE NOT FUELLED SUBJECT TO MEASURED AIR MASS. FOR ANY GIVEN ENGINE SPEED/MANIFOLD PRESSURE AIR IS CONSTANT. You really don't have clue do you. Maps written into the ECU for very fine control of Nox/smoke as in EU 3 4 and 5 only come into play when EGR is active at all other times the engine is fuelled subject to throttle/power demand just like any none EGR EDC diesel. The MAF sensor for EGR was introduced at EU 2 regs to give the feedback the regulations required.
 
wammers said:
Take the one that helps you to read technical descriptions and understand them.
Click to expand...

That is fine, But then I need to know which colour pill you and @sierrafery have taken, otherwise this is the third time this argument has happened and one or bothof you seems to expect a different result. Which I believe is paraphrasing what Einstiein called "Insanity".

Cheers
 
wammers said:
Diesel engines are throttled by fuel.....
Click to expand...
....and the EUIs which are delivering that fuel to the engine are ''throttled'' by voltage managed by the ECU which calculates the IQ based on that algorythm i've described

and from my point of view this case is closed no matter how many times it will come back, that's a promise .... i wouldnt have insisted again but as i said i needed some activity in my night shift and thought that i'll give it another try without having great expectations... my only hope(which was ruined again) was that if i speak about applied electronics i'll not get an answer about a diesel lump
 
I think everyone needs to take a moment and have a brew or something... With the maf sensor unplugged on a td5 it will still get you to work in the morning
 
neilly said:
That is fine, But then I need to know which colour pill you and @sierrafery have taken, otherwise this is the third time this argument has happened and one or bothof you seems to expect a different result. Which I believe is paraphrasing what Einstiein called "Insanity".

Cheers
Click to expand...

My position has never changed, diesel engines are throttled by fuel. That is a plain and simple fact. They ALWAYS run with excess air, the fuel to air mixture ratio at idle can be in excess of 100 to 1 this reduces as the engine speed is increased. The MAF sensor is there to service EGR and for no other purpose. Diesel engines ARE NOT fuelled subject to airflow through the MAF sensor but subject to throttle/power demand. People read tech info applicable to EGR operation and think they refer to general running .THEY DON'T.
 
wammers said:
My position has never changed, diesel engines are throttled by fuel. That is a plain and simple fact. They ALWAYS run with excess air, the fuel to air mixture ratio at idle can be in excess of 100 to 1 this reduces as the engine speed is increased. The MAF sensor is there to service EGR and for no other purpose. Diesel engines ARE NOT fuelled subject to airflow through the MAF sensor but subject to throttle/power demand. People read tech info applicable to EGR operation and think they refer to general running .THEY DON'T.
Click to expand...

Bless, was that a red or a blue??

Cheers
 
That's not on the subject so i don't break my promise though it's quite rude to say:
wammers said:
If you want to believe the other crap feel free.
Click to expand...
i presume you translated "electronics" in "crap" as electronics is a foreign language you dont understand, but it's not electronics:

funny-chinese-sign-translation-fails-15.jpg
 
sierrafery said:
That's not on the subject so i don't break my promise though it's quite rude to say:

i presume you translated "electronics" in "crap" as electronics is a foreign language you dont understand, but it's not electronics:

funny-chinese-sign-translation-fails-15.jpg
Click to expand...

No not at all. But if you know how a diesel engine works, which you obviously don't. It is fairly easy to know that fuelling cannot be subject to air flow through a MAF sensor. Engine rpm is increased by injecting more fuel on throttle/power request, air is constantly in excess of that required. Something that you seem to fail to grasp. If a diesel engine was not fitted with EGR it would not need a MAF sensor.
 
wammers said:
No not at all. But if you know how a diesel engine works, which you obviously don't. It is fairly easy to know that fuelling cannot be subject to air flow through a MAF sensor. Engine rpm is increased by injecting more fuel on throttle/power request, air is constantly in excess of that required. Something that you seem to fail to grasp. If a diesel engine was not fitted with EGR it would not need a MAF sensor.
Click to expand...
back in your area this week - we are working for insurance company opposite a Jail only 2 mins drive from Bamber bridge area -- is this a womens Jail? rite in the middle of a commercial estate - just looks odd ( and very old may I add )
 
wammers said:
.... If a diesel engine was not fitted with EGR it would not need a MAF sensor....
Click to expand...
I must answer to that cos even if i promissed with this statement of your's i completely agree and that's not something to be missed :) ... your problem is that you refuse or simply can not comprehend that since the EGR was introduced together with the MAF to control it the whole engine management was addapted to the new situation cos the EGR doesnt have a different ECU, it's managed by the same unit, the EGR management on the Td5 is not based exclusively on MAF cos it's part of the addaptive strategy and other sensor inputs are involved too in the EGR control exactly like the MAF is used in the overall fuelling strategy.
EGR td5.jpg

So the ECU(ECM) is used for EGR in accordance with the prevailing operating conditions, one influencing factor for this is the MAF as well described in the document so it's implication in that whole thing which was higlighted including fuel delivered are all in the same algorythm and that's how the management works cos the ECU calculates the fuel delivered as being that IQ which i explained in that "crap".

So please try to aknowledge that nobody contradicted your obsessive statement that the diesel engine is throttled by fuel not by air but there is a the difference between how the fuel is delivered by a complex electronic management or a classic system, on a classic engine when you push the cable driven throttle more fuel is delivered while with the electronic throttle this will happen only with the ECU's involvment what's so hard to understand...and yes the diesel lump will behave exactly as you say but it must get fuel for that and in this case the fuel is delivered based on that "crap"


and for GOD's sake dont say again how the diesel engine works cos now we speak about electronic management and EGR which you brought into the discussion.
 
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