Lithium battery vs lead acid for starters ;)

cborrman said:

It is worth noting that a) there is a load of crap out there on the internet in terms of ageing, memory, etc. and b) lithium has had a huge amount of innovation put into it even in the last 2-3 years we have seen warranties on lithium has gone from 1-3 years to over 10 years. ..

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That ageing quote I put above was from the website hyperlinked. It's just something I found after a quick google.....I have no idea of the accuracy of the statement, which is why I put in the hyperlink, for people to make up their own minds.
My reason for sticking to lead for the moment is that it's a lot cheaper and it works, so I can't justify the extra expense of changing to Lithium.

I do quite like the idea of smaller, lighter, more reliable and cheaper. - for batteries and / or girlfriends

mick 1986 said:

I think this is the main reason you don’t actually “own” the battery when you buy a Nissan Leaf. So they can recycle them at the end of the useable life cycle.

For the next few years, I will stick with my trusty lead acid battery.

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The innovation in these batteries mean that while the first gen Zoe/Leaf etc you had to lease and had a 1-3 year warranty, you can now own and they are lasting up to 10 years at 80% or 60% of their power, at this time the weight to power ration makes them unsuitable for a vehicle by our first world standards, at which point they are then going to solar arrays or home powerwalls, etc so are being upcycled for another many years rather than like lead acid that needs to go through an expensive and I expect unpleasant recycle process. This however appears to be for high density EV batteries, with the smaller starter batteries the one I have put here has a life expectancy of a 2000-3000 cycles and 10 years, vs. I cannot remember how many hundred cycles of lead acid.

exmed wayne said:

That ageing quote I put above was from the website hyperlinked. It's just something I found after a quick google.....I have no idea of the accuracy of the statement, which is why I put in the hyperlink, for people to make up their own minds.
My reason for sticking to lead for the moment is that it's a lot cheaper and it works, so I can't justify the extra expense of changing to Lithium.

I do quite like the idea of smaller, lighter, more reliable and cheaper. - for batteries and / or girlfriends

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yep, this is still very much early adopter in track and classic concourse cares (so you do not have to sit them on a trickle charger) so expect it will take a while in Landies...

DanClarke said:

This outfit says their batteries are drop-in replacements and the battery does contain the BMS.
https://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/

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Ah, just remembered also, their 20ah equivalent only claimed 200cca, so would have needed in theory a much more expensive 50ah or more and the price got silly. The one I got in original post claimed a massive 630cca from a 20ah battery, which is key!

cborrman said:

However - in this day and age I was left scratching my head as to why I was going to buy 30kg of lead that was probably mined in Africa by children, shipped to Canada to refine, then shipped back which will inevitably fail, along with all its corrosive acid and glass fibre relic crap in it... when lithium is the future and has been for last 10 years of huge innovation vs. a decade

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I like your thought for the environmental impact but but sadly the reasoning is not quite right, Lithium is worse than lead and acid, they just are not talking too loudly about it yet. Acid can be easily neutralised and when diluted can become fairly inert and will break down. Lead is not that bad in these circumstances because once the battery has been made unless you store drinking water in the battery casing you will not have any issues and you are not going to be touching it. Once the sulphuric acid has been dumped from a battery and then flushed you have a simple plastic casing and lead and some other bits of metal - it will recycle quite easily. The batteries can also be made to be very safe very easily and will not pose a risk. I would happily have heaps of old lead batteries in my garage, I would tip out the acid, neutralise it and then leave the battery casings.

Lead is predominantly mined in Australia, Canada, US and China - with the exception of probably China lead mining is done safely and underground where it causes minimal destruction and the visual impact is minimal.

Now, Lithium on the other hand is a total nightmare from start to finish - vast areas of forest in South America are being illegally deforested for lithium mining, the vast lithium brine pools leech lithium and other heavy metals into ground water, lithium is an unstable, lithium is damaging to human health (I know so too is lead but not like lithium is) and lithium batteries tend not to be recycled to reuse the lithium and the other heavy metals within Lithium batteries are even worse, such as nickel which is a carcinogen. I would also fee quite uneasy about any qty of lithium batteries being stored due to the fire hazard - have you ever stabbed a cellphone battery and wriggled the knife about a bit? Smoke and flames like a firework that cannot be extinguished easily.

cborrman said:

So, having looked at various options from stupid cost to home-made (not what you want under a seat) I saw a great british company making a 20ah with 630cca and a 30ah with 800cca both lifepo4 (lithium iron phosphate - safe as houses).

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I have a query about the charging, I assumed it had a built in charge regulator as an alternator would not be ideal to charge a lithium battery (over-current and no charge termination when full), but then it says on the instructions that you must use a LiFePO4 Li-Ion charger with a limit of 3A to charge it, so that suggests it needs external regulation? Which is it?

What are the details for ideal charging?

discomania said:

I like your thought for the environmental impact but but sadly the reasoning is not quite right, Lithium is worse than lead and acid, they just are not talking too loudly about it yet. Acid can be easily neutralised and when diluted can become fairly inert and will break down. Lead is not that bad in these circumstances because once the battery has been made unless you store drinking water in the battery casing you will not have any issues and you are not going to be touching it. Once the sulphuric acid has been dumped from a battery and then flushed you have a simple plastic casing and lead and some other bits of metal - it will recycle quite easily. The batteries can also be made to be very safe very easily and will not pose a risk. I would happily have heaps of old lead batteries in my garage, I would tip out the acid, neutralise it and then leave the battery casings.

Lead is predominantly mined in Australia, Canada, US and China - with the exception of probably China lead mining is done safely and underground where it causes minimal destruction and the visual impact is minimal.

Now, Lithium on the other hand is a total nightmare from start to finish - vast areas of forest in South America are being illegally deforested for lithium mining, the vast lithium brine pools leech lithium and other heavy metals into ground water, lithium is an unstable, lithium is damaging to human health (I know so too is lead but not like lithium is) and lithium batteries tend not to be recycled to reuse the lithium and the other heavy metals within Lithium batteries are even worse, such as nickel which is a carcinogen. I would also fee quite uneasy about any qty of lithium batteries being stored due to the fire hazard - have you ever stabbed a cellphone battery and wriggled the knife about a bit? Smoke and flames like a firework that cannot be extinguished easily.

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I am not sure of many of these arguments, which I have considered and always willing to reconsider, however my present thoughts against lead-acid and your points are
1) the huge amounts of lead needed to get the same battery density vs lithium, which greatly sways the extraction, transport and recycling will greatly sway the impact assessment, one for which I am yet to see real figures and facts vs. opinions
2) Lithium is used as a drug to cure various ailments, so in toxicity terms quite the opposite of lead. while in its (battery) packaging that may not be an issue; we seem to use the term "recycle" with lead-acid batteries like you just take it to the council deposit and some magic happens, but in reality we are talking about huge amounts of a very heavy, hard to transport toxic metal, hazardous acid until it is neutralised, most likely not on-site, and "nightmare" (sorry had to re-use the term) amounts of plastic it is encased in, which I am yet to see which type it is, but am willing to bet its either not recyclable or very hard to, as apart from glass and silver is the only thing to hold acid!!!
3) yes - lead acid batteries are encased in ridiculous amounts of plastic, anyone car to (knowledgeably) tell us how recyclable that is?
4) Lead acid needs recycling at least 3 times sooner that lithium
5) lithium can be "mined" by processing well water, vs. actual mining of lead, you know, down mines where lets face it nobody wants to go to extract poison
6) what are we going to do with these huge amounts of lead after lead demand inevitably disappears
7) what are we going to do even sooner when the commercial viability of recycling lead acid goes away but there are still shed loads of the beggers --- left abandoned, waiting for some kid to burn / poison himself destroying it...
8) how much extra fuel is used lugging these buggers around??? (ok, I am now just throwing stuff out there lol).

on the other hand of contras

1) people say recylcing lithium is hard but there is no real had facts I have been able to encounter??
2) are they recycled or just upcycled?
3) the amount of lithium needing to be recycled is infinitely smaller as a percentage and a weight than lead, and is not encased in huge amounts of plastic and acid...
4) its a nightmare apparently

the fire hazzard is negligible in lifepo4 in question

cborrman said:

I am not sure of many of these arguments, which I have considered and always willing to reconsider, however my present thoughts against lead-acid and your points are
1) the huge amounts of lead needed to get the same battery density vs lithium, which greatly sways the extraction, transport and recycling will greatly sway the impact assessment, one for which I am yet to see real figures and facts vs. opinions
2) Lithium is used as a drug to cure various ailments, so in toxicity terms quite the opposite of lead. while in its (battery) packaging that may not be an issue; we seem to use the term "recycle" with lead-acid batteries like you just take it to the council deposit and some magic happens, but in reality we are talking about huge amounts of a very heavy, hard to transport toxic metal, hazardous acid until it is neutralised, most likely not on-site, and "nightmare" (sorry had to re-use the term) amounts of plastic it is encased in, which I am yet to see which type it is, but am willing to bet its either not recyclable or very hard to, as apart from glass and silver is the only thing to hold acid!!!
3) yes - lead acid batteries are encased in ridiculous amounts of plastic, anyone car to (knowledgeably) tell us how recyclable that is?
4) Lead acid needs recycling at least 3 times sooner that lithium
5) lithium can be "mined" by processing well water, vs. actual mining of lead, you know, down mines where lets face it nobody wants to go to extract poison
6) what are we going to do with these huge amounts of lead after lead demand inevitably disappears
7) what are we going to do even sooner when the commercial viability of recycling lead acid goes away but there are still shed loads of the beggers --- left abandoned, waiting for some kid to burn / poison himself destroying it...
8) how much extra fuel is used lugging these buggers around??? (ok, I am now just throwing stuff out there lol).

on the other hand of contras

1) people say recylcing lithium is hard but there is no real had facts I have been able to encounter??
2) are they recycled or just upcycled?
3) the amount of lithium needing to be recycled is infinitely smaller as a percentage and a weight than lead, and is not encased in huge amounts of plastic and acid...
4) its a nightmare apparently

the fire hazzard is negligible in lifepo4 in question

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All interesting points, that I am sure over the next 10 years will be answered, however at this moment in time the main thing for me was cost. So off to Halfords I went .

Cheers

discomania said:

I have a query about the charging, I assumed it had a built in charge regulator as an alternator would not be ideal to charge a lithium battery (over-current and no charge termination when full), but then it says on the instructions that you must use a LiFePO4 Li-Ion charger with a limit of 3A to charge it, so that suggests it needs external regulation? Which is it?

What are the details for ideal charging?

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the alternator is fine, I do not know if they re trying to sell another charger, or the many cycles and oddities of lead acid chargers is no likely by other batteries, could also be a voltage issue in terms of wall chargers???

from what I can see so far the lifepo4 battery recovers its voltage and power WAY quicker than lead acid, this is not scientific, just pased on keeping an eye on volt meter

neilly said:

All interesting points, that I am sure over the next 10 years will be answered, however at this moment in time the main thing for me was cost. So off to Halfords I went .

Cheers

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yep, time will tell, we may even have another technology... oh how we laughed at this lithium fad...

cborrman said:

I am not sure of many of these arguments, which I have considered and always willing to reconsider, however my present thoughts against lead-acid and your points are
1) the huge amounts of lead needed to get the same battery density vs lithium, which greatly sways the extraction, transport and recycling will greatly sway the impact assessment, one for which I am yet to see real figures and facts vs. opinions
2) Lithium is used as a drug to cure various ailments, so in toxicity terms quite the opposite of lead. while in its (battery) packaging that may not be an issue; we seem to use the term "recycle" with lead-acid batteries like you just take it to the council deposit and some magic happens, but in reality we are talking about huge amounts of a very heavy, hard to transport toxic metal, hazardous acid until it is neutralised, most likely not on-site, and "nightmare" (sorry had to re-use the term) amounts of plastic it is encased in, which I am yet to see which type it is, but am willing to bet its either not recyclable or very hard to, as apart from glass and silver is the only thing to hold acid!!!
3) yes - lead acid batteries are encased in ridiculous amounts of plastic, anyone car to (knowledgeably) tell us how recyclable that is?
4) Lead acid needs recycling at least 3 times sooner that lithium
5) lithium can be "mined" by processing well water, vs. actual mining of lead, you know, down mines where lets face it nobody wants to go to extract poison
6) what are we going to do with these huge amounts of lead after lead demand inevitably disappears
7) what are we going to do even sooner when the commercial viability of recycling lead acid goes away but there are still shed loads of the beggers --- left abandoned, waiting for some kid to burn / poison himself destroying it...
8) how much extra fuel is used lugging these buggers around??? (ok, I am now just throwing stuff out there lol).

on the other hand of contrast

1) people say recycling lithium is hard but there is no real had facts I have been able to encounter??
2) are they recycled or just up-cycled?
3) the amount of lithium needing to be recycled is infinitely smaller as a percentage and a weight than lead, and is not encased in huge amounts of plastic and acid...
4) its a nightmare apparently

the fire hazard is negligible in lifepo4 in question

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A year or so back I wanted to know a bit about Lithium battery technology so I could shutdown tree-huggers who drive electric cars and go on about Diesel and Land Rovers.

I have a good understanding of battery systems and charging characteristics and their use in modern equipment from central battery backup to solar storage banks, but I am no battery expert I just have a thirst for knowledge. So a year or so back I discussed at great length, Lithium batteries, with a friend who is a Dr. of metallurgy and electronics, he is responsible for designing the electrical & battery systems for a major defence contractor used in everything from electronic devices to, and mainly, missiles, the issue with missiles is that often, thankfully, they don't get used, so they come back to the factory for decommissioning after about 5 years (which costs more than the missile originally cost). When missiles used older technology for battery power, like SLA, NiMh, Ni-Cad etc. things were apparently difficult enough and environmentally unfriendly but generally they had no issues with the batteries and they could safely split them down and they were recycled - now with first generation Lithium technology coming back to them apparently it is a nightmare because they cannot neutralise them easily, so they must store them externally in fireproof, bunded storage bunkers (which were originally designated explosives storage). They then must have them removed by specialists who split them down but the raw ingredients are simply sealed into containers and stored as toxic waste in facilities.

Long term side effects of Lithium Carbonate or Tetrahydrate (medical use Lithium) is renal system damage & failure.

Have a Google around the subjects of Lithium - Bolivian forests, Panasonic's battery plant issue, water contamination, heavy metal poisoning and you will see the issues with Lithium - remember - Lithium batteries have not really had to be recycled in large quantity yet - I reckon the first wave will be coming through now and it is about to get worse.

I think in all honesty, they are probably just about as bad as each other - I just think the Lithium issue is not known yet because we have not had it long enough - they once filled homes with asbestos and told us to smoke. Lithium batteries won't be long term, the next battery is a silicate based, and it will at first be mixed with small amounts of Lithium, then they will go 100% silicate.

I like the idea of your battery (the Ah rating is just too low for me) - I drive a Diesel - so I am not exactly on a environmental high horse - I am not having a go, I just think the Lithium is just as nasty as anything else.

so since there is no need to vent, I blocked the holes and added dynamat to the battery box and tool box... as well as a small patch on the top of the battery box and toolbox lid; night and day in terms of cabin noise

Given battery replacement time of year is coming again, and how difficult it was for me to get info on this last year when my battery started failing, I wanted to update.

I started with a powerlite ps-20, 20ah but importantly 570cca battery which worked well but the drain from my trackers, etc meant I have no upgraded to the ps-30, 30ah.

I was editing a post with pics and video links like some people do so well, but was taking ages and so just made a youtube video on it as well, and will be doing ones on the other stuff I am doing to my tracter...




as I find a video easier to follow tbh... hope it helps

the main advantage I see is that without the fumes from lead acid, you can seal up the battery box holes, which together with dynamat have made the cabin much quieter, but most importantly I could clean 20 years of oily muddy gunk from the battery box and it seems to have stopped the other half complaining about the smell of wet dog... which is worth every penny in itself

then there is the fact that you have space for a box of wine / beer in there now... for when the tracter breaks down on you and the hammer does not fix it lol

whats the point when you are driving a vehicle that pollutes every mile its driven but has as you say a Eco friendly battery buy a electric vehicle and it will have the batteries fitted.
next you can tackle the next pollutant your domestic boiler,log burner,eat organic grown vegetable and produce more methane than the polluting farm animal,enforce sterilisation to reduce pollution by numbers and become a new age hippy
glad I'm of an age that won't be around when it all kicks off

mystery said:

whats the point when you are driving a vehicle that pollutes every mile its driven but has as you say a Eco friendly battery buy a electric vehicle and it will have the batteries fitted.
next you can tackle the next pollutant your domestic boiler,log burner,eat organic grown vegetable and produce more methane than the polluting farm animal,enforce sterilisation to reduce pollution by numbers and become a new age hippy
glad I'm of an age that won't be around when it all kicks off

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... only I don't say I bought it to be Eco friendly... the post right above this says:

"the main advantage I see is that without the fumes from lead acid, you can seal up the battery box holes, which together with dynamat have made the cabin much quieter, but most importantly I could clean 20 years of oily muddy gunk from the battery box and it seems to have stopped the other half complaining about the smell of wet dog... which is worth every penny in itself"

Having said that, and seeing you brought it up, I started this not wanting to buy another lead acid battery, just like I try not to consume single use plastic, and don't use leaded fuel any more - it all makes a huge difference. And no buying a whole new electric car just because my now 23 year old oil burner only does 30mpg is not at all Eco friendly; its total greenwashing: so much more energy goes into making a car, transporting it and its parts, along with potential waste issue each new car creates, than the fuel it consumes in its lifespan, especially when considering the lifespan of a modern electric car vs. the age of my defender and the fact that it easily has another 23 again to go if not more!

Shame it does not seem possible to buy Lead Crystal batteries in this country. Similar benefits as lithium except weight/size (though smaller than AGM), but much cheaper and less damaging to the environment to produce. They are widely available elsewhere, but not yet in the UK.

Lithium and lead crystal come into their own as leisure batteries where their ability to deliver almost all of their charge means you extract almost twice as much power for the same Ahr, and you can drain them fully repeatedly without sulphation. A starter battery in normal use does not need those abilities. It just needs to be able to deliver massive output very quickly (CCA) and then recover reasonably fast. A lead acid battery will do that just fine without being damaged, and as long as it is kept charged will last maybe 5 years. A lithium battery of the same CCA would have to last a very long time to reach a financial break even point. So unless you really need to save weight I would use an AGM lead acid as my starter battery and a lithium or lead crystal (if I could get one) as my leisure battery.

Can you charge a lithium ion battery straight off an alternator by shoving amps at it?

I though li-ion needed a different charge characteristics to prevent problems and battery failure

Also correct me if I am wrong but isn’t lithium much nastier than lead and acid and isn’t it mined in China by children?

flat said:

Can you charge a lithium ion battery straight off an alternator by shoving amps at it?

I though li-ion needed a different charge characteristics to prevent problems and battery failure

Also correct me if I am wrong but isn’t lithium much nastier than lead and acid and isn’t it mined in China by children?

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Yes, Bolivia actually, read my post in this thread above.

Lithium batteries are composed of multiple cells and all have an in-built Battery Management System which balances the cells, limits the charge current to what is required, prevents the battery being overcharged and stops over extraction when their power is too low. You should be able to connect directly as a starter replacement, but you will still need a suitable DC to DC charging system to manage it as a second/leisure battery

flat said:

Can you charge a lithium ion battery straight off an alternator by shoving amps at it?

I though li-ion needed a different charge characteristics to prevent problems and battery failure

Also correct me if I am wrong but isn’t lithium much nastier than lead and acid and isn’t it mined in China by children?

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It depends on the BMS in the battery or one you want to add, I checked with Powerlite before buying (their principal business seems to be making / refurbing alternators for classic cars so it was in their interest to sell me another alternator if they were like most of the automotive industry) but they said fine. Done about 10,000 miles so far with them over a year, and some of that is 1000 mile plus single stints, so if it was going to blow then 15 hours solid charge was it?

I don't know where you get lithium being nastier than lead from, as lead is poisonous and lithium has been a medicine to cure certain ailments and thus not just not poisonous but edible! The main source by far is south america, so not sure where chinese children come from - probably someone who has an interest in flogging lead acid batteries!

My view on this, apart from the fact that lead is poisonous and lithium not, is the fact that we use much less (the battery weighs 3kg vs 30kg) its lifecycle is much longer (like 3 times) it costs way less to ship around the world as lighter and use less for same purpose, is not floating in acid, and therefore easier to recycle and is packages in WAY less plastic (just the plastic alone of a lead acid battery weighs close to that of the whole LiFePO4 battery...

but again, these are all aside the main benefits of a quiter, less smelly, landy and less moaning from the missus.