LED all about the lumens?

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Rorie

Active Member
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Looking up LED headlights for the defender. Buy cheap buy twice...

I can see similar looking products (Namely the Halos) at a whole range of prices. Looking at the sellers spec, I can also see a range of lumens, so I assume the brighter the better.

But looking at other LEDs lights, I have found one set at Powerful UK at £200 with just 1300 LUX full beam vs a set at Devon which is £175 but gives 5000LUX!

How on earth do I work out what's good if brightens isn't reflective of quality.... do I just go by price?
 
Rorie said:
Looking up LED headlights for the defender. Buy cheap buy twice...

I can see similar looking products (Namely the Halos) at a whole range of prices. Looking at the sellers spec, I can also see a range of lumens, so I assume the brighter the better.

But looking at other LEDs lights, I have found one set at Powerful UK at £200 with just 1300 LUX full beam vs a set at Devon which is £175 but gives 5000LUX!

How on earth do I work out what's good if brightens isn't reflective of quality.... do I just go by price?
Click to expand...
I've no idea, but would be interested in what you discover. I think I've read that some can be too bright?
Hopefully, one of the technical electrical guys will be along to shine some light on the subject. (Pun intended, but not very funny :rolleyes:)
 
Rorie said:
Looking up LED headlights for the defender. Buy cheap buy twice...

I can see similar looking products (Namely the Halos) at a whole range of prices. Looking at the sellers spec, I can also see a range of lumens, so I assume the brighter the better.

But looking at other LEDs lights, I have found one set at Powerful UK at £200 with just 1300 LUX full beam vs a set at Devon which is £175 but gives 5000LUX!

How on earth do I work out what's good if brightens isn't reflective of quality.... do I just go by price?
Click to expand...

It all depends on how the brightness was measured, and where in the beam. Measuring high beam, at 2’ is going to produce a higher number than low beam at 10’, but it doesn’t mean the higher number is better.

I purchased my LED headlights on looks alone. I didn’t take into account spec, nor cost.
 
I was going down the road of looks, but I don't like to buy rubbish, so started looking at spec: LED brand, LUX, if it had DRL and cost etc. But that only confused matters!
 
Rorie said:
Looking up LED headlights for the defender. Buy cheap buy twice...

I can see similar looking products (Namely the Halos) at a whole range of prices. Looking at the sellers spec, I can also see a range of lumens, so I assume the brighter the better.

But looking at other LEDs lights, I have found one set at Powerful UK at £200 with just 1300 LUX full beam vs a set at Devon which is £175 but gives 5000LUX!

How on earth do I work out what's good if brightens isn't reflective of quality.... do I just go by price?
Click to expand...


IMO do yourself a favour and give them both a swerve.
Have a look at my build thread, re LED headlights.

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/td5-90-project.301491/

Make sure they are Type approved for UK MOT.
Dont pay more than £150 ish for the pair including the harness.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/land-rov...h=item4403b971f0:g:NPEAAOSwzJ5XbQXX:rk:7:pf:0

Fitted my ones around 3yrs ago, no problems, no fading, no misting and three MOT's later.
Plus they draw less amps.

Essentially the drivers and LED units are COB based and pretty much the same.
The cost of production theses days is a fraction of what is was 5 years ago.
They come with glass prisms / lens inside and the housings are fade and scratch resistant high impact plastic. Same stuff that £150K+ cars headlights are made from.
 
Last edited:
Kissmyaura, yes you are correct, headlights need to be type approved to be road legal.

However on that eBay example you have given there are photographs of several different lights and most of them are not road legal as they do not carry the correct approval markings.

Now if a headlight has an indicator built in which is used then you must disable the original front indicator as you are only allowed one indicator per side at the front of a vehicle.

Rorie, the £175 appears to be for a single headlight on the Devon site.

Lumens or lux? Lumens is a measure of light output whereas lux is a measure of light ‘density’ with 1 lux being 1 lumen/square metre.

Now light output in lumens? Most lumen figures given are what is know as raw lumens and is a theoretical calculation on what the light output will be if everything is working at 100% with absolutely no losses. This is the headline figure.

Effective lumens is a calculation of what the light output might be making assumptions about losses due to an imperfect driver, thermal losses, optical losses etc and is a lower figure then the raw lumen figure. It is still a calculation and not a measured light output.

Some manufacturers actually given a measured light output which is a true reflection on how bright the light is.

So a cheap headlight a single figure for light output on main beam or dipped beam it is basically a guess.

Light emitting diodes from the diode manufacturers have a product code and a BIN code. The BIN code is a grade system on the LEDs and this is based on light temperature, light output etc and there are normally about 10 grades. The best grade of LEDs will be dollars each whilst the worst grades will be a 100 or so for a dollar.

Headlights with low beam greater then 2,000 lumens need a headlight cleaning system or a wash/wipe system.


HTH


Brendan
 
Brendan, thank you!

You are spot on with Devon headlights, they are priced individually, so that rules them out!

I am not interested in the headlight as an indicator, so wouldn't use that function, but good point.

What is the difference between "E-marked" and "DOT compliance". Some say just E-marked, others say E-marked and DOT compliance. (several actually make a statement of "we've not had an issue with an MOT" which I find a bit of a wooly statement!).

Regarding the Lumens (I assumed LUX was the same as some quote LUX figure). I assume that means its almost impossible to compare the lights based just on the sellers website as they don't specify where or how the figure is derived?

So I am now really between buying from SP 4x4 (a company that I don't really like, but are dirt cheap) with lights around the £120 to £130 inc VAT, or Thomas Performance where the lights are £245, look the same (roughly), but 'state' a much higher light output (around 4000lm vs 3200 on SP 4x4).

Links below. Any thoughts?

1) No DRL. 3200/2300 lumens, E marked, £130
https://www.sp-4x4.com/Land_Rover_Defender_7_Pair_BLACK_LED_HEADLIGHTS_p/md-j608.htm

2) No DRL, 3200/2300 lumens, E marked AND DOT approved, £120
https://www.sp-4x4.com/Land_Rover_Defender_7_Pair_BLACK_LED_HEADLIGHTS_p/md-j001.htm

3) DRL, 3200/2300 lumens, E marked, £120
https://www.sp-4x4.com/Land_Rover_Defender_7_Pair_BLACK_LED_HEADLIGHTS_p/md-hl75.htm

4) DRL, 4200/2100 lumens, E marked, £285
https://thomasperformance.co.uk/store/land-rover-defender-led-juwel-v2-0-headlights-with-switchback

5) DRL, 4000/2400 lumens, E marked, £255
https://thomasperformance.co.uk/store/land-rover-defender-60w-led-headlights-with-drl

6) No DRL, 4000/2400 lumens, E marked, £245
https://thomasperformance.co.uk/sto...-headlights-6500k-with-h4-connectors-e-marked
 
leeds said:
Kissmyaura, yes you are correct, headlights need to be type approved to be road legal.

However on that eBay example you have given there are photographs of several different lights and most of them are not road legal as they do not carry the correct approval markings.

Now if a headlight has an indicator built in which is used then you must disable the original front indicator as you are only allowed one indicator per side at the front of a vehicle.

Rorie, the £175 appears to be for a single headlight on the Devon site.

Lumens or lux? Lumens is a measure of light output whereas lux is a measure of light ‘density’ with 1 lux being 1 lumen/square metre.

Now light output in lumens? Most lumen figures given are what is know as raw lumens and is a theoretical calculation on what the light output will be if everything is working at 100% with absolutely no losses. This is the headline figure.

Effective lumens is a calculation of what the light output might be making assumptions about losses due to an imperfect driver, thermal losses, optical losses etc and is a lower figure then the raw lumen figure. It is still a calculation and not a measured light output.

Some manufacturers actually given a measured light output which is a true reflection on how bright the light is.

So a cheap headlight a single figure for light output on main beam or dipped beam it is basically a guess.

Light emitting diodes from the diode manufacturers have a product code and a BIN code. The BIN code is a grade system on the LEDs and this is based on light temperature, light output etc and there are normally about 10 grades. The best grade of LEDs will be dollars each whilst the worst grades will be a 100 or so for a dollar.

Headlights with low beam greater then 2,000 lumens need a headlight cleaning system or a wash/wipe system.


HTH


Brendan
Click to expand...

Where does it say you need headlight washers if your light has that output?
 
Legal route?

UK Vehicle Lighting Regulations States headlights must have an approval mark

UK Road Traffic Act says it is an offence to supply, fit or use a defective item. Item not approved equals defective.

Designation of Approval Marks accepts UNECE as an approval mark and the U.K. is both a signatory and participating country with the UNECE.

R48 gives an overview of vehicle lights, R112 deals with technical aspect of headlights, etc

Yes the requirement for a headlight cleaning system is in there.

Rorie just had a quick look at a couple of those lights. If you zoom in you can see the markings on the lens and they are NOT a valid approval mark required in the U.K.

Under U.K. Law an approval mark is required, not an E mark or DOT mark/compliant.

If the only markings are DOT, SAE and E plus a number in a circle then that is NOT an approval mark and is illegal on the roads in the U.K.

DOT stands for Department of Transport in the USA and SAE is Society of Automobile Engineering in the USA so has no relevance to the U.K. market.

E plus number in a circle is a country code often referred to as an E mark but is not an approval mark required by U.K. law.

A valid approval mark in the U.K. consists of

Light Function code for all functions of that light, so HC/R for headlight, RL for DRL, 1, 1A, 1B etc for an indicator.

Amendment number 00

Actual approval number 4-6 digits,

Peak Beam Reference Number, a total of 100 for combined forward lighting, normally around 12.5/17.5 range.

PL for plastic lens

A marking to distinguish between LHT and RHT

If that information is missing then not approved for road use in the U.K. which means illegal, which can have motor insurance implications.


Brendan
 
Powerfuluk put videos ont you tube to compare the lights they sell. Am not saying they is good or bad. Ah never bought them. But it will give a comparative eggsample.
 
Interesting thread for me as am planning to led convert a 110 I'm shortly picking up.
I do have a set of Halo led headlights on my 90 which have been fantastic and a few years ago were around £240.
I am also wondering what are the best of the current batch (that sit in the ebay decent range rather than crazy Trucklite Nolden prices etc)

I was planning on a set of these
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PAIR-LED...EYE-Lens-DRL-for-Defender-90-110/253011084199
Unless anyone knows they're periled!
 
leeds said:
Legal route?

UK Vehicle Lighting Regulations States headlights must have an approval mark

UK Road Traffic Act says it is an offence to supply, fit or use a defective item. Item not approved equals defective.

Designation of Approval Marks accepts UNECE as an approval mark and the U.K. is both a signatory and participating country with the UNECE.

R48 gives an overview of vehicle lights, R112 deals with technical aspect of headlights, etc

Yes the requirement for a headlight cleaning system is in there.

Rorie just had a quick look at a couple of those lights. If you zoom in you can see the markings on the lens and they are NOT a valid approval mark required in the U.K.

Under U.K. Law an approval mark is required, not an E mark or DOT mark/compliant.

If the only markings are DOT, SAE and E plus a number in a circle then that is NOT an approval mark and is illegal on the roads in the U.K.

DOT stands for Department of Transport in the USA and SAE is Society of Automobile Engineering in the USA so has no relevance to the U.K. market.

E plus number in a circle is a country code often referred to as an E mark but is not an approval mark required by U.K. law.

A valid approval mark in the U.K. consists of

Light Function code for all functions of that light, so HC/R for headlight, RL for DRL, 1, 1A, 1B etc for an indicator.

Amendment number 00

Actual approval number 4-6 digits,

Peak Beam Reference Number, a total of 100 for combined forward lighting, normally around 12.5/17.5 range.

PL for plastic lens

A marking to distinguish between LHT and RHT

If that information is missing then not approved for road use in the U.K. which means illegal, which can have motor insurance implications.


Brendan
Click to expand...

I have been through the Vehicle Lighting Regulations, and can’t see any mention of the headlight washers relating to the light output. Can you put a link to where it is stated please?
 
mick 1986 said:
I have been through the Vehicle Lighting Regulations, and can’t see any mention of the headlight washers relating to the light output. Can you put a link to where it is stated please?
Click to expand...



Dipped-beam headlamps with a light source or LED module( s) producing the principal dipped-beam and having a total objective luminous flux which exceeds 2,000 lumen shall only be installed in conjunction with the installation of headlamp cleaning device( s) according to Regulation No. 45.
Click to expand...


Taken from 6.2.9 Individual specifications for dipped beam headlights in UNECE R 48 Can be checked out here

Regulation 45 deals with headlamp cleaners and available to read here



Brendan
 
leeds said:
Taken from 6.2.9 Individual specifications for dipped beam headlights in UNECE R 48 Can be checked out here

Regulation 45 deals with headlamp cleaners and available to read here



Brendan
Click to expand...


I thought that is where it came from. That’s an EU directive.
 
Last edited:
Sorry Mick but it is not an EU directive!

The UNECE regulations are the regulations for vehicle harmonisation scheme and has nothing to do with the EU. The EU consists of 28 countries whereas if I remember correctly over 100 countries are signatory countries not all are participating countries.

For instance the USA is a signatory country but not a participating country as they use the DOT scheme.

Now an EU directive is not legally binding on the 28 countries whereas EU law is.

To give you an example our current UK MOT is based on an EU directive for periodic roadworthiness testing. Now the UK testers manual is section for section the same as the EU directive. Under the EU directive it is a requirement to check the markings on headlights for compliance however that is not included the UK MOT. A great pity in my view as it would get rid of the illegal headlights on vehicles in the UK.


Brendan
 
leeds said:
Sorry Mick but it is not an EU directive!
The UNECE regulations are the regulations for vehicle harmonisation scheme and has nothing to do with the EU. The EU consists of 28 countries whereas if I remember correctly over 100 countries are signatory countries not all are participating countries.
For instance the USA is a signatory country but not a participating country as they use the DOT scheme.
Now an EU directive is not legally binding on the 28 countries whereas EU law is.
To give you an example our current UK MOT is based on an EU directive for periodic roadworthiness testing. Now the UK testers manual is section for section the same as the EU directive. Under the EU directive it is a requirement to check the markings on headlights for compliance however that is not included the UK MOT. A great pity in my view as it would get rid of the illegal headlights on vehicles in the UK.
Brendan
Click to expand...

If I read that correctly, the EU thingy says that the correct markings are needed, but it is not actually checked by law under a UK MOT test?
and therefore, you should not fail an MOT with these type of LED headlights, as long as they pass what is tested at MOT - ie beam pattern / height?
 
Rorie said:
So I am now really between buying from SP 4x4 (a company that I don't really like, but are dirt cheap) with lights around the £120 to £130 inc VAT, or Thomas Performance where the lights are £245, look the same (roughly), but 'state' a much higher light output (around 4000lm vs 3200 on SP 4x4).
Links below. Any thoughts?
3) DRL, 3200/2300 lumens, E marked, £120
https://www.sp-4x4.com/Land_Rover_Defender_7_Pair_BLACK_LED_HEADLIGHTS_p/md-hl75.htm
Click to expand...

Hi Rorie,
I bought the above from SP at the beginning of October, but just got round to fitting them at xmas.
Good points -
They look and feel good quality.
They are proper bright.
They are a quick easy plug and play connection
Bad points -
Beam pattern...
I marked a vertical wood fence 5ft in front of my defender with a pencil, where the light from the standard headlights fell, then put the LED's on. I struggled to lower the beam enough to get it on the markings.
light scatter...
there is a circle of light visible shining up in the air, I can just see this on the top edge of fence and it is obvious when driving under trees as the underneath of the tree canopy is illuminated. I'm assuming this must be from dodgy optics.
Interestingly, when I get the Mrs to drive past and I'm driving in the opposite direction in her car, there is no dazzle, so it's not noticeable to other drivers.
Pixies...
That's in another thread of mine. dipped beam / full beam / sidelight doing weird stuff, but in fairness this is probably a bit of dodgy wiring rather than the LED units. I just haven't got round to checking yet with all the busyness of xmas etc.
 
I read an article ages ago about the different temperatures and lumens of LED lighting and the perceived light reflected back to the driver, ie. How much illumination you see if the road and surroundings not just how blinding the bulb is if you stare at it directly. If i ever find it again I'll post it, a very interesting read
 
leeds said:
Sorry Mick but it is not an EU directive!

The UNECE regulations are the regulations for vehicle harmonisation scheme and has nothing to do with the EU. The EU consists of 28 countries whereas if I remember correctly over 100 countries are signatory countries not all are participating countries.

For instance the USA is a signatory country but not a participating country as they use the DOT scheme.

Now an EU directive is not legally binding on the 28 countries whereas EU law is.

To give you an example our current UK MOT is based on an EU directive for periodic roadworthiness testing. Now the UK testers manual is section for section the same as the EU directive. Under the EU directive it is a requirement to check the markings on headlights for compliance however that is not included the UK MOT. A great pity in my view as it would get rid of the illegal headlights on vehicles in the UK.


Brendan
Click to expand...

upload_2019-1-9_21-5-48.png
 
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