Freelander 1 L series Diesel stuck in cold start mode

MacGyver said:

Cough all you want, it's fact. I've helped work and rebuild more of them that I can count. And that's just helping in m spare time over last 8 years.

Have a look at the mg-rover.org diesel section, have a good read through the mg rover diesel Facebook page. It's constant.

We had another zs 2.0 td brought into the yard today for repair and its been a single owner its whole life with a service history book that would make a yellow pages look like a post it note.

You can even by thermostat bypass kits from questionable people now on them.

And to be fair there's no definite millage, imo I believe it's OAT servicing and ratio with water causing most of the problems.

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Cough... BS - Cough.... .. You must have some very careless, extremely unlucky or minimal amount of friends - to say the least.....
exactly the same reply. - you are talking total utter cr&p. The antics of a few deluded boy racer botchers (even though they may be 'physically older') does bot a problem make.

Even funnier after all the BS you spout is that you just bought a TD4

Well if you had of sold me a commercial 3 door for £150 with an L series I would have taken that but alas it had a td4 in it and it's still a solid engine.

MacGyver said:

Cough all you want, it's fact. I've helped work and rebuild more of them that I can count. And that's just helping in m spare time over last 8 years.

Have a look at the mg-rover.org diesel section, have a good read through the mg rover diesel Facebook page. It's constant.

We had another zs 2.0 td brought into the yard today for repair and its been a single owner its whole life with a service history book that would make a yellow pages look like a post it note.

You can even by thermostat bypass kits from questionable people now on them.

And to be fair there's no definite millage, imo I believe it's OAT servicing and ratio with water causing most of the problems.

Click to expand...

So there's another post today on the MG-Rover Diesel Owners Club FB page from a guy with head failure, bottom end failure and everywhere in between - generally dead L Series - the one where he had to pay the Police £180 to get the car back. This fella is supposedly an "Autotechnician at Skoda" - but what do you think is more likely the cause of this failure - engine or owner?

The thread is is hilarious. The OP obviously has no idea and neither do most of the people replying.

That group has more than its fair share of total eejuts on it, but it also has some seriously clever people, and its a "good read" - I don't agree with Joe that you need to apply reversed baseball caps to enjoy it

-Hello, Have spent sometime this afternoon with my Father-in-law working on the Freelander. We went through the HPFP timing belt setup process and checked everything that we have done. It all seemed correct (2 pins plus align and 6Nm of torque on the tensioner) The engine was still a really bad starter so we decided to adjust the HPFP a little. We advanced it by one tooth and tested it. Now starts immediately. I know this is not 100% the correct way but what a difference.

Now it starts immediately the revs go instantly to 800 ish but within seconds go upto 1,050 rpm (not 1200 rpm). Also if we press the accelerator it is still digital (on or off) or if i effectively stamp on the accelerator it blips for a few 100 rpm then nothing. Meaning foot to floor = 1,050 rpm.

I tested the Water temp switch by disconnecting it with the result that the electric cooling fans came on. I also disconnected the gauge sensor and re-connected therefore i am confident about them working and which one is which. I have also disconnected the brake light switch for testing.

Non of these have changed anything.

Now for missing information which i didnt share before, Apologies.

Warning lights that remain on on the dash are:-

Engine warning light.
Hill decent
ABS.

Guessing its all electric now. Will follow through with all of the electrical suggestions unless this update has highlighted new things to check.

Thanks

Stuart Jackson said:

-Hello, Have spent sometime this afternoon with my Father-in-law working on the Freelander. We went through the HPFP timing belt setup process and checked everything that we have done. It all seemed correct (2 pins plus align and 6Nm of torque on the tensioner) The engine was still a really bad starter so we decided to adjust the HPFP a little. We advanced it by one tooth and tested it. Now starts immediately. I know this is not 100% the correct way but what a difference.

Now it starts immediately the revs go instantly to 800 ish but within seconds go upto 1,050 rpm (not 1200 rpm). Also if we press the accelerator it is still digital (on or off) or if i effectively stamp on the accelerator it blips for a few 100 rpm then nothing. Meaning foot to floor = 1,050 rpm.

I tested the Water temp switch by disconnecting it with the result that the electric cooling fans came on. I also disconnected the gauge sensor and re-connected therefore i am confident about them working and which one is which. I have also disconnected the brake light switch for testing.

Non of these have changed anything.

Now for missing information which i didnt share before, Apologies.

Warning lights that remain on on the dash are:-

Engine warning light.
Hill decent
ABS.

Guessing its all electric now. Will follow through with all of the electrical suggestions unless this update has highlighted new things to check.

Thanks

Click to expand...

Hi Stuart, can you please answer the questions as it is extremely difficult to attempt to help you when you do not answer.

IE - These two from different posts - you have still not answered.

Joe_H said:

No worries, ask your dad in law if he definitely used BOTH pins when timing it - the HPFP pulley pin and the crank pin and confirm the pump pulley bolt was at no time loosened in any way - which also obviously means that at no time was the Pulley ever removed from the HPFP. all the above points re BOTH pins and the Pulley on the Pump are extremely important.

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Joe_H said:

Have you checked with your father in law that the pump timing etc was done exactly as described above ? - can you 100% guarantee that -- -
He definitely used BOTH pins ! - flywheel AND FP Pulley pins were used for cam and fuel pump belt refitting.
The cam pulley was definitely timed correctly with the crankshaft ring gear pin in place.
The FP Pulley has NEVER been loosened, removed or altered in any way.
FP has never been removed by you.

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As for your warning lights....
Have you got HDC enabled on the gear lever - check it.
The ABS light will NOT go off until you actually drive the vehicle - you need to reach around 4 or 5 KPH - or close)
THIS IS NORMAL on that model.
As for the 'engine warning light' - well, that could be anything - what are the codes ?

ref the above questions asked twice before - before considering what you have done in your last posts - the answers to the questions I posted are important to assist.
Ignore today - just please answer the questions.
Thanks
Joe

Yeh, the ABS lights may not mean anything other than you have the HDC switch on, just pull the collar up.

As the engine warning light is on you need to put a code reader on it - it will tell you what's wrong.

Both pins were used to set it up. The really difficult one at the back of the engine which engages into the flywheel and the 9.5mm which goes into the HPFP when setting the timing for the diesel pump. As stated in my last post we are very comfortable with the timing setup now as it starts immediately and sounds really good. Having had Rover 25's with L series engines since 2002 i have enough experience to know when they sound good.

Are these the two missing pieces of info or an i missing something?

Thanks

GrumpyGel said:

Yeh, the ABS lights may not mean anything other than you have the HDC switch on, just pull the collar up.

As the engine warning light is on you need to put a code reader on it - it will tell you what's wrong.

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Hi GG, the abs light would be on regardless providing the vehicle has not moved, it will not extinguish until the vehicle has enough forward motion.

Stuart Jackson said:

Both pins were used to set it up. The really difficult one at the back of the engine which engages into the flywheel and the 9.5mm which goes into the HPFP when setting the timing for the diesel pump. As stated in my last post we are very comfortable with the timing setup now as it starts immediately and sounds really good. Having had Rover 25's with L series engines since 2002 i have enough experience to know when they sound good.

Are these the two missing pieces of info or an i missing something?

Thanks

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Yes Stuart, unfortunately you are missing something in the response.
I asked - if BOTH pins were used ORIGINALLY to set it up. You still have not answered.
I asked if the HP Pump pulley has ever been loosened or removed. You still have not answered.

you said -

Stuart Jackson said:

The engine was still a really bad starter so we decided to adjust the HPFP a little. We advanced it by one tooth and tested it. Now starts immediately. I know this is not 100% the correct way but what a difference

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WHY ? if you were so sure that you had done it correctly in the first place - which you never answered

Stuart Jackson said:

As stated in my last post we are very comfortable with the timing setup now

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SO, what you appear to be saying is that you do not really know what you did the first time but you have moved the - supposed pin set timing - by one tooth now - and NOW you

Stuart Jackson said:

very comfortable with the timing setup

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None of the above makes sense Stuart.
WHY did you move it one tooth IF you supposedly set it up correctly in the first place. AND the unit was running properly before you messed - err, I mean dismantled it.
HOW could the pump timing moved one tooth magically be beneficial IF the pump pulley had never been slackened or removed in the first place. That is - according to what I understand from your limited and misleading feedback - moved with reference to the correct marks on the last attempt.
If you did not time it correctly in the first place, it also brings into question the cam timing.

It sounds like you are saying

"we don't really know what we did the first time - we just winged it - ah ! - but the SECOND time we DID use the pins" - and then decided to shift the NOW supposedly correct position of the HP FP pulley by 1 tooth".

That would indicate that you have moved the pulley with reference to the hp fp shaft.!
You don't just 'move it one tooth' to see what happens and then say you 'very comfortable' with that'

I suggest that you stop wasting time and take it to a specialist. - also, be prepared to tell them the ACTUAL history of what you did and not simply make it up as you go along.

I don't think you would be the first person who has solved starting problems on an L Series by moving the pump timing 1 cog. As I said above, starting problems and pump timing are synonymous.

However, I can't recall why/how this happens.

The car/engine history is not known to you as you purchased it when it was off the road. It may be the belt has stretched or there is wear to the pump or some other component - I wish I could remember what I was looking at/for when I was looking at pump timining and starting issues.

If it is just a 1 cog change that has resolved the starting issues then its likely not been caused by your removing the head and refitting it - it could just as easily have been like it before.

You obviously do not have access to a diagnostic box or else you would have put it on the car by now - it will tell you why the MIL is lit and probably that is why the engine is not running properly.

I suggest you put another thread up asking if anyone has a Hawkeye, or other device that can read L Series engine codes, in the Chipping Campden area who can help. If that doesn't get any hits - try on the "International Rescue" section of LZ.

GrumpyGel said:

The car/engine history is not known to you as you purchased it when it was off the road. It may be the belt has stretched or there is wear to the pump or some other component -.

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That is not the case grumpy, ... he reports that the engine was running perfectly well when he purchased it - simply losing water.

GrumpyGel said:

If it is just a 1 cog change that has resolved the starting issues then its likely not been caused by your removing the head and refitting it - it could just as easily have been like it before.

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There is also never a need for a 'one cog change'. - and, it wasn't like that before. Hence the above is not the case.
Joe

Firstly tanks for so much input, Let me reset this thread by clearing up the history.

When I bought this car it had been off the road for a year, I don't know any history before this. Once I got it trailered home I did some basic work which enabled it to be driven. The engine started well and pulled like a tractor. But it lost water very quickly. I believed it was due to a HGF which turned out to be correct.

Whilst replacing the HG new timing belts were replace along with a few items. The procedure using the pins was done as per the book. I have done this work on Rover 25's on three occasions so understand the process. The Rover 25 rear flywheel pin is a pain but the Freelander one is a way worse.

The HPFP was left in place when changing the head and the pulley has never been taken off by me.

Whatever happened in the alignment of the HPFP pulley I don't know, all I know is that it is working perfectly now.

With the advice about hill descent and ABS I can dismiss this issue now.

This leaves me with an engine that starts perfectly and ticks over (too fast) well.

When starting the tick over is at 800rpm but within seconds it goes upto 1050rpm.
If the accelerator is pressed the engine effectively over revs. The throttle is not working in a linear way.

I will talk to a neighbour of mine who used to work at LR to see if he knows somebody with a Hawkeye.

Any further information is welcome.

Thanks

Stuart Jackson said:

Whatever happened in the alignment of the HPFP pulley I don't know, all I know is that it is working perfectly now.

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it isn't !. - your definition of 'working perfectly' must be from another dictionary to mine.
You CANNOT have any difference or improvement by moving the pump 1 tooth from a supposed correct alignment unless you have altered the pump pulley to shaft -which I repeat is NOT keyed as on other L series.!.

You MUST get it on a QUALITY diagnostic and test device that can check everything over.
You can check the TPS at the ECU for correct signals.
You replaced the TPS but havent checked that the signals are reaching the ecu correctly by all accounts. - even IF the TPS new unit - or wiring - is faulty - then there is no way that that would alter the timing position of the HPFP pulley - that is simply impossible.

You also said that you'tried another ecu' - how ? - and from what ? . Did you have no issues with immobiliser ?

To clarify, the pulley has not been touched at all. All I can tell you is that one tooth adjustment has solved the starting problem.

My focus is now on the tickover and accelerator issue.

I purchased a refurbished ECU from the ECU Doctor in Plymouth on the agreement that if it didn't work I could return paying a handling charge. When I fitted it and started the engine it had exactly the same profile as the original unit. Meaning tickover was too high and non linear acceleration.

I will check the TPS values as advised and source someone with a hawkeye. I'll comeback once I have these results.

Stuart Jackson said:

To clarify, the pulley has not been touched at all. All I can tell you is that one tooth adjustment has solved the starting problem.

My focus is now on the tickover and accelerator issue.

I purchased a refurbished ECU from the ECU Doctor in Plymouth on the agreement that if it didn't work I could return paying a handling charge. When I fitted it and started the engine it had exactly the same profile as the original unit. Meaning tickover was too high and non linear acceleration.

I will check the TPS values as advised and source someone with a hawkeye. I'll comeback once I have these results.

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When you pinned the engine and pulley prior to removing the head (which would be the correct and normal way) - and that the BOTH were inserted correctly prior to belt removal- both cam and pump. The simple fact that the pins fitted on disassembly and the engine ran fine before proves the timing was correct. Hence there is no way on earth that now you should have to move the timing by 'one tooth' at all. IF you are 100% confident that you did the above then you must return the pump to its original position.
That would be the first 'focus'
Then check the other items. Note - it would probably be cheaper just to simply buy the Hawkeye or Lynx unit and then sell it again afterwards. The loss you would make will almost certainly be less than getting someone out to you - and possibly multiple uses. Unless you can of course find someone locally willing to travel and give their time. Allowing for the costs of fuel etc then again, the purchase and resale of the diagnostic device becomes even more attractive.

Hello, back again. I've been out of the country for a few weeks but decided to buy a HAWKEYE with the Freelander diesel code. So checked it out last night and ended up with three codes.

133
132
144

Just doing an Internet search I found the following for 144


P0144 Engine Trouble Code
Meaning of P0144 engine trouble code is : P0144 code can be about replacing a broken oxygen sensor can eventually lead to a busted catalytic convertor which can cost upwards of $2,000. Taking your car into a shop will cost you around $200 depending on the car. However, an oxygen sensor is easy to replace on many cars and is usually detailed in the owner's manual. If you know where the sensor is, you only have to unclip the old sensor and replace it with a new one. Regardless of how you approach it, you should get this fixed right away.

P0144 Possible Solution:



Gasoline engines use spark plugs to cause an explosion of fuel within the cylinder. In a properly timed engine, this explosion occurs at the proper moment to send the piston to the bottom of the cylinder and provide power to the drive shaft. If the plug wires are out of sequence, the explosion occurs at the wrong time. The improper timing of the explosion sometimes pushes the cylinder the wrong direction or interferes with the turning of the crank. As a result, the engine stutters or backfires, if it runs at all.



P0144 Code Meaning :
P 0 1 4 4
OBD-II Diagnostic Powertrain (P) Trouble Code For Engine Intake Valve Control Solenoid Circuit Low Fuel Rail/System Pressure - Too High Injection lump Fuel Metering Control 'B' High (Cam/Rotor/Injector) Timing Reference High Resolution Signal A Too Many Pulses
Regarding the P0144 code, it would probably be worthwhile to carefully inspect the wire harness near the intake manifold bracket. This is done most easily from below the car in the area near the oil filter.

P0144 OBD-II Diagnostic Powertrain (P) Trouble Code Description
P0144 OBD-II Trouble Code The rear heated oxygen sensor (or sensor 3 for some vehicles), after three way catalyst (manifold), monitors the oxygen level in the exhaust gas on each bank. Even if switching characteristics of the P0144 code.
Reason For P0144 Code
The reason of P0144 OBD-II Engine Trouble Code is Fuel Rail/System Pressure - Too High.
P0144 DTC specifically refers to the camshaft (cam) timing. In this case, if the cam timing is over-retarded, the engine light will be illluminated and the code will be set.


Any guidance?

Thanks

Those codes aren't P codes

Search in Google for

"Freelander L series fault code 132" and then 133 and then 144

This will tell you what's up and potential causes

td4van said:

Those codes aren't P codes

Search in Google for

"Freelander L series fault code 132" and then 133 and then 144

This will tell you what's up and potential causes

Click to expand...

+1
I must confess I am utterly amazed if the Hawkeye does not give more information regarding the codes
Surely it does not simply give a code and no meaning
The Lynx unit certainly gives you all info - the software / firmware is from the same source. The difference is the lynx uses a PC interface and can display a lot more info.

Again though - a code with no info on a hawkeye ? gob smacked !

I'm also surprised and have been trying to find info, without much luck.

@Hippo , should the Hawkeye show descriptions for the codes?

GrumpyGel said:

I'm also surprised and have been trying to find info, without much luck.

@Hippo , should the Hawkeye show descriptions for the codes?

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Just recently purchased a hawkeye from our esteemed Gary here. When it arrives will compare it to the lynx. - should be here in a week or so.
Joe