Freelander 1 L series - Bosch MSA-11 DCU and 93C46 EEPROM / IMMO removal ?

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Joe_H said:
Hi Tony, that answers a lot of questions, thanks for the info. However, it also brings up otherr questions...
If (on a standard ecu) you remove the appropriate 8 pin EEprom from the ecu then the immo is removed. However. If you leave the comms connection from CCU to ECU - OR - disconnect it, then the CCU disables the cranking via the starter relay. So in all cases afaik the ccu will disable crank without a valid comms link.
If I read you correctly, then you have the original CCU with a Jap ECU without IMMO. Yet on disconnecting the CCU - ECU comms the engine STILL starts ? - that I find confusing (based purely on the info I have). I considered a two way single wire data flow from the ccu to ecu with an ack return to the ccu to confirm key authenticity, however, this could not occur with ccu comms disconnected.
The question raised is - under what circumstances does the CCU enable start cranking unless a two way ACK / NAC is occurring.
You also appear to have this issue with the original ecu and ccu with comms disconnected. You also see a no crank ? - or, do you get crank but no start.?
This is highly confusing :)
The original CCU has to have a way to know when to enable the starter - NB - I have not tried this (yet) I have just ordered an ECU CCU matched combo to experiment with. I am purely going from researched info so far. It could be that the key fob data exchange with the CCU is enough to enable CCU Starter activation but the ECU needs comms for the Immo deactivation. If that is the case, removing comms would cause a crank but no start situation.
Can you confirm if this is the case or not ? - this bit confuses me Tony

"With the original ECU and CCU, if I disconnected the data line between the two, the engine would not start and run."
:confused:
Joe
Click to expand...
Hi Joe,

Yes, I see the confusion. My understanding - the CCU has two separate outputs as part of the immobiliser - the starter relay ground circuit and the line to send a code to the ECU. Both are effectively one way only.

When I started the conversion I was planning to at least temporarily just ground the starter relay, to make it work. I never needed to because the CCU was not immobilising so that line was always low (grounded) and the starter enabled, as long as +ve was available to the relay from the key start position.

I cannot see any two way transfer in this, the CCU outputs the 16 bit code and pulls the starter relay line low regardless of the state of the ECU.

Oh, BTW, when I said "the engine starts", I mean more than just the starter motor turns, rather the engine springs to life.

FWIW, circuit diagrams for my model.
 

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Ah, now I see the issue ;)
As far as the main circuits for CCU and starting go - and comms link - the diagrams are exactly the same as Rave (do you have a copy BTW ? - it is all in English - if you need one let me know)

On the L series the CCU drives the starter relay directly.

On the K series the ECU drives the starter relay via the 'relay module engine management' (basically a block of 4 relays)

So a different methodology explaining exactly why both situations occur. On the L series the CCU controls the starter relay - on the K series the ECU controls the starter hence an IMOO disabled ECU on the K series will both start and run with no comms connection, yet an Immo disabled L series (if such a factory thing exists - would need changes to the ECU (DCU) AND the CCU for it to work - (a non factory change would mean grounding the starter relay which is easy enough.

There is light now at the end of the tunnel. I was mistakenly presuming that the K series and L series CCU were the same. - obviously there is a difference.
Joe
 
Joe_H said:
Ah, now I see the issue ;)
As far as the main circuits for CCU and starting go - and comms link - the diagrams are exactly the same as Rave (do you have a copy BTW ? - it is all in English - if you need one let me know)

On the L series the CCU drives the starter relay directly.

On the K series the ECU drives the starter relay via the 'relay module engine management' (basically a block of 4 relays)

So a different methodology explaining exactly why both situations occur. On the L series the CCU controls the starter relay - on the K series the ECU controls the starter hence an IMOO disabled ECU on the K series will both start and run with no comms connection, yet an Immo disabled L series (if such a factory thing exists - would need changes to the ECU (DCU) AND the CCU for it to work - (a non factory change would mean grounding the starter relay which is easy enough.

There is light now at the end of the tunnel. I was mistakenly presuming that the K series and L series CCU were the same. - obviously there is a difference.
Joe
Click to expand...

Hi Joe,

I have RAVE, but the diagrams I sent cover 98 and 99 only. The RAVEs I have only go from year 00. In the one i sent, both L and 1.8i starting circuits are basically the same. The ignition key "starts" the starter motor which will run as long as the CCU has the relay negative grounded. In those models, at least, the CCU decides if the starter should be allowed to run or not. The ECU plays no part in the process.

In the model of FL (prior to year 00), the L and K CCU's are the same part number.

I must admit that I had no end of trouble trying to figure the wiring to get the VVC running in my K until I found that non-englisg set of diagrams.
 
Tony Reeves said:
Hi Joe,

I have RAVE, but the diagrams I sent cover 98 and 99 only. The RAVEs I have only go from year 00. In the one i sent, both L and 1.8i starting circuits are basically the same. The ignition key "starts" the starter motor which will run as long as the CCU has the relay negative grounded. In those models, at least, the CCU decides if the starter should be allowed to run or not. The ECU plays no part in the process.

In the model of FL (prior to year 00), the L and K CCU's are the same part number.

I must admit that I had no end of trouble trying to figure the wiring to get the VVC running in my K until I found that non-englisg set of diagrams.
Click to expand...
Hi Tony, I agree with you, I am getting wiring diagram blindness :)
I can now see the CCU powering the start relay on both on closer inspection. ! - I am at a loss to understand why the reported failure to crank occurs on the L series. As you say, the situation is the same with normal (no jap) units with original CCU DCU and comms disconnected - it cranks but no start.
that makes any sense - the reports of that NOT being the case and people earthing the starter relay makes absolutely no sense. - yet they seem to exist. ;)
This is one of the times your head spins lol... I

Jeez, :) Need a rest and a beer - this is so contradictory - yet you have done it ! - I can - ATM - only go with what you have proven - and cast severe doubts on the various reports (quite a few) of no crank....

Anyway, for your perusal - the Rave for the earlier AND later - <2000 and > 2000 from my G Drive. (will keep the links active for a week or so)
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzkFpJClXDWlNXJnX3hhUDlJM3M&usp=sharing

Also, Microcat if you want it - absolutely superb - full LR parts catalogue with all exploded diagrams / part number etc etc - but - needs a 32bit machine or simple VM (Virtual box works great and is free) , rave does not. ! Rave is great on 64 bit.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0BzkFpJClXDWlSVRRRGVHaXphaXM&usp=sharing

I have printed it off and will look again in the cold light of day (or warm light of day as it is here -- or indeed - frigging HOT light of day yikes :))
Cheers and thanks for the patience.
Joe
 
Tony Reeves said:
In the model of FL (prior to year 00), the L and K CCU's are the same part number.
Click to expand...

Yup, that is what I am also seeing on the diagrams and on microcat. !

I can therefore see absolutely no reason at all to jumper the start relay to ground in the event of immo disable -
I am expecting a complete DCU and matched CCU and also spare CCU for experiments.
They are all the VT27 on the earlier units.
You have been most helpful Tony, sometimes one cannot see the wood for the trees.... :)
I am still confused by various claims (not yours!) - but will get to the bottom of it all.
Joe :)
 
Joe_H said:
Yup, that is what I am also seeing on the diagrams and on microcat. !

I can therefore see absolutely no reason at all to jumper the start relay to ground in the event of immo disable -
I am expecting a complete DCU and matched CCU and also spare CCU for experiments.
They are all the VT27 on the earlier units.
You have been most helpful Tony, sometimes one cannot see the wood for the trees.... :)
I am still confused by various claims (not yours!) - but will get to the bottom of it all.
Joe :)
Click to expand...

I guess there would be a need to jumper the start relay to ground if you wanted to run the starter while the CCU was in the immobilised state, but why? The doors would be locked and supposedly the alarm would sound when you forced the doors open or the voltage dropped when the starter was turning.

I suspect it has been proposed as part of an ill advised hack.

However some of my ramblings may be wrong - my wife and kids seem to think they frequently are.;)
 
I am determined to keep reviving this thread :)

I have just communicated with my Polish friend. He has taken a EDC from a L Series Freelander and plugged it into his Rover 600 - and the engine starts and runs. That was obviously not using the original CCU - he took his stock 600, unplugged its EDC and plugged in the LR one and it runs.

No immobilisation.

The engine did run on reduced power/revs, maxing out at about 3,250 RPM. Not sure why, lots of possible reasons, but the EDC did fire up the engine and control it.
 
GrumpyGel said:
I am determined to keep reviving this thread :)

I have just communicated with my Polish friend. He has taken a EDC from a L Series Freelander and plugged it into his Rover 600 - and the engine starts and runs. That was obviously not using the original CCU - he took his stock 600, unplugged its EDC and plugged in the LR one and it runs.

No immobilisation.

The engine did run on reduced power/revs, maxing out at about 3,250 RPM. Not sure why, lots of possible reasons, but the EDC did fire up the engine and control it.
Click to expand...

I would offer two reasons for it running:

- As you say, the EDC being used does not have immobilisation switched on,
- or The CCU immobil code is the same as the EDC being used. Like locks, sometimes the keys are the same, as a coincidence.

If it was immobilised, it would not run for more than a second or so, it does not reduce revs etc..

Oh, and just thought of another reason - language difficulties and/or misunderstanding.
 
Tony Reeves said:
I would offer two reasons for it running:

- As you say, the EDC being used does not have immobilisation switched on,
- or The CCU immobil code is the same as the EDC being used. Like locks, sometimes the keys are the same, as a coincidence.

If it was immobilised, it would not run for more than a second or so, it does not reduce revs etc..

Oh, and just thought of another reason - language difficulties and/or misunderstanding.
Click to expand...
There's lots of areas where language difficulties have caused misunderstandings. On this though, I watched a video of him unplugging the EDC from his Rover, then plugging in the Freelander one and him driving around with it. He bought the Freelander EDC from a breakers (for 13 euro!). Its part number

Given your experience of changing ECU on your K Series and the engine running - I'm wondering if engine immobilisation, other than the CCU not enabling the starter, is a myth!

Maybe it was frigged, I'll ask him. Just seen this page saying how it can be done....

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forum...r-2-0TD-ecu-bosch-0-281-001-420-NEED-im*o-OFF
 
GrumpyGel said:
There's lots of areas where language difficulties have caused misunderstandings. On this though, I watched a video of him unplugging the EDC from his Rover, then plugging in the Freelander one and him driving around with it. He bought the Freelander EDC from a breakers (for 13 euro!). Its part number

Given your experience of changing ECU on your K Series and the engine running - I'm wondering if engine immobilisation, other than the CCU not enabling the starter, is a myth!

Maybe it was frigged, I'll ask him. Just seen this page saying how it can be done....

http://www.digital-kaos.co.uk/forum...r-2-0TD-ecu-bosch-0-281-001-420-NEED-im*o-OFF
Click to expand...
Hello Grumpy and Tony,
I am also highly confused (as normal) :) by the exploits of the other chap in Poland. It doesn't seem to make sense at all.
I am STILL waiting for my CCU's (they match my existing ECU's - ie - from same vehicle / vin number). - they were supposed to come in the same delivery as the ABS MOD' and the later dual diaphragm brake servo.. but sue to a cock up I only got the abs mod - and that was captain cooked as you have seen by the pics :) :) - (I have had lots of stuff from my'guys' in the UK and the ABS MOD was a one off.. I am awaiting another (possibly two) one for spares and one to do the images for the ABS MOD thread - then also for a spare or for sale.. anyway, back tot the topic...

There is one HUGE issue with removing the upper LH eeprom from the board (93C46) then - even IF it did the job - I am 99% certain that this EEPROM, as well as being part of the immo code system - is also the storage area for DTC's ..... so that would be err 'not good' - you would lose all DTC troubleshooting info.
I have also seen that post in the past but after looking at the eeprom dumps from the two DCU units I dismissed it as not practical at all.

My two ecu's are stripped of the two eeproms and the two eproms, but have been socketed ready for the new eproms. When I get time I will assemble one with the original files and stick it on the freelander as is and see if it starts..... or doesn't - or cranks etc etc.
Joe ;)
 
Yet another revival...
Ok, I now have a couple of pairs of matching DCU and CCU units for later experimentation.

Thought I would take a look at the CCU internals for any external eeprom - unfortunately no.
It is a custom processor Motorola / Lucas.

Anyway, the good news as far as ccu's go is that the rest of it is bog standard stuff that could be repaired quite easily with suitable rework gear. In the event of a failure of an output it would be easy to trace. Mind you, they don't really go wrong... but ....
It is a mix of Multiplexers 74HC151, 8 bit addressable latch 74HC258, some Darlington drivers ULN2003 a high side driver MLX10410 and a few relays. - oh, and the buzzer...
What at first I thought was an 8 pin SOIC eeprom is actually the LDO v reg.

Some pics for reference for the long winter evenings :rolleyes: - this is the VT27 CCU.
(I need external lighting for the camera and a remote shutter :()

Joe
 

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Last edited:
Hello is very funny if you read about, own jobs after longer time.

For Tonny Reeves:

Ad1. Immobilization code is permanently OFF in EDC.
Ad2. CCU immobill code isn’t the same, EDC has disconnected value which verify key.

This definitely not language misunderstanding ;)

For GrumpyGel:

EDC not did fired a engine ;) only inject a small quality of diesel, then original EDC from rover, this is exactly difference between EDc ….1419, …1418, …1420. Diesel maps, and time injection

Pump VP37 is “little” different then in rover 600SDI, that for yours mechanical settings runs very well. Pump from landrover has different plunger 10mm and max rpm 2250, from 600 11mm and max rpm 2500, also has a difference with actuator shape and angle of adjuster.

For Joe_H:

No more confusions :) chap from Poland – very good :)

Regards
 
I have a 2003 TD4 lost keys. My auto electrician/programmer says I have to remove immobiliser module but I cant find it. He said it is behind radio but not there. Help
 
It is, but dashbout job to get at it I am afraid. They don't make it easy to get at for obvious reasons. You may be able to view it, long way back centre of dash about radio / heater control height. Passenger side is best view.
 
Don't think eka code applies to 2003. This was up to model year 2000. I managed to get into a 1998 car by entering the eka via the door key. So many turns clockwise then some anti until the immobiliser light went out. It was sort of James Bond !!
 
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