Jeep thing or sheep thing?

"Lon Stowell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Well, I guess you could say that at least it contains a
> Sparc plug......
>

Yah, but is it a Splitfire Sparc plug? ;-)

Ted

"dodgeboy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Isn't it nice when Lloyd has a day off work. So he does not sit at his
> work computer all day trashing Chrysler products.
> He's the worst kind of Troll!!!!!!!
> Barry A. Lee

I quickly learned to ignore anything he says years ago.

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
The Zen Hotdog, make me one with everything!
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

Like your new website.


Dave Milne, Scotland
'99 TJ 4.0 Sahara

"Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:kkkNa.118383$hd6.97767@fed1read05...
: See the Geezer Jeep at
: http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
:
:

"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Like your new website.
>
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
>
> "Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:kkkNa.118383$hd6.97767@fed1read05...
> : See the Geezer Jeep at
> : http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
> :

what's wrong with his website? It looks pretty nice to me

"DTJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:52:02 GMT, 'nuther Bob
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>Here is where I take issue. I used to support MS no matter what. No
> >>longer. However, the companies that claim MS is unfair are
> >>complaining because MS is better at producing competitive products.
> >>There is no monopoly, certainly no illegal one, unless you use your
> >>clout in the market to reduce competition AND THEN use the reduced
> >>competition to increase profits. >MS has never done this.
> >
> >I'm not talking about those complaints. MS ordered hardware vendors
> >to sell their OS, and only their OS, on their systems. If you want(ed)
> >to sell Windows on a PC you had to agree to install only windows.
> >That was clearly illegal under US law. Also, although not quite as
>
> Not quite. Microsoft had agreements that required the vendor to pay
> for Windows whether they installed it or not. Yes it was found to be
> illegal. No, it was not clearly so.
>

I hope you can stand another "no, not exactly"

Those agreements of Microsoft ONLY applied if you were a PC manufacturer
that was purchasing "OEM" licenses at the cheap rate, of course. If you
were
including discounted "retail" licenses you could do what you want.

Considering that the OEM license are about $12-20 and the retail licenses
(in quantity) are about $50, and the PC manufacturers were tacking on about
$100
extra for the license, I don't really feel that sympathetic to them.

> Let's assume a fair price for Windows to a vendor is $50, and the
> vendor sells 100 copies a year. They also sell 10 systems with Linux.
> That comes out to $45.45 per system, or $50 per Windows system. If
> Microsoft sells it to that vendor under the agreement that it is based
> on systems sold (regardless of OS) for $40, the vendor wins. That is
> not unfair or illegal, no matter what the sleeping judge found.
>

This is true if that is what was happening. But was WAS happening is that
vendors (like Dell) that had a corporate policy of NEVER selling ANY
systems with Linux preloaded, they got the Windows copies at the
$40 price. Vendors like IBM/Compaq/HP that sold a few Linux preloaded
systems got the Windows copies at $50.

Microsoft was very arbitrary on the costs to the OEM of Windows. It
was not based on volume or anything like that, it was polically based. It
was no different than if a Negro-owned business that sold 500 tractors
a year had to pay $10,000 per tractor, (less shipping) while a White-owned
business
that sold 50 tractors per year only had to pay $7,000 per tractor (less
shipping) for
the same tractor.

> >crystal clear, is that MS as a vendor of both the application and
> >OS was keeping things secret about the OS that they were taking
> >advantage of in their applications - that is also illegal. The
> >list goes on, those are two major issues.
>
> This is so bull**** though. It is impossible to "keep things secret"
> in Windows. Any programmer with even a few days experience should
> know how to view the exported functions in a DLL. It is simple to
> look at what DLLs are being loaded. Since the Windows OS is mainly
> DLLS, there is no possibility for MS to "hide" functions from anyone.
>

Once again this is a simplification of the issues.

Yes it is not possible to "hide" functions. The problem is, that Microsoft
has
no responsibility to maintain consistency with functions that are
undocumented.

So what was happening is that Microsoft Office would make use of an
undocumented function, and a competitor like WordPerfect would make use of
the same
function. Then Microsoft would plan on changing that function in the next
version of Windows, and they would inform their MS Office development
team. So that team would stop or change using that function and release a
new version
of Office, as well as patches for the old versions of Office that mitigated
the
change in the function.. Wordperfect would not of course be informed of the
pending
change, and so then when the next version of Windows was released,
the new version of Wordperfect would crash on it, while the new version of
MS Office
wouldn't, and most people would have patched their old versions of Office.
And if people were doing in-place upgrades of Windows, the new version of
Windows would search their hard drive for the old version of MS Office
during installation and patch it if it wasn't patched.

> Improvements? It sucks. Ever try to network XP with 98 where one
> system has NetBeui installed? Can't do it! MS likes to say NetBeui
> is not supported. So? It didn't magically stop working - until MS
> MADE XP networking NOT WORK when one system has NetBeui and another
> does not.
>

Very little supports NetBIOS Extended User Interface (NetBEUI) these
days other than Windows and old IBM Lan Manager/OS2. The few
networking devices like print servers are dropping support for it, and
why not? NetBEUI isn't routable anyway.

Windows 98SE has TCP/IP in it and supports Automatic IP Number Assignment
(ie: negotiating IP numbers when a DHCP server is not present) as does
XP, so this is not a serious problem. While it's facinating to me that
they dropped support in XP as I didn't know that, I rather see this as an
improvement. I've seen many corporate networks with unauthorized
filesharing
going on from people using NetBEUI that has caused problems for the
system administrators.

>
> Interesting point, but Netscape was trying to force their standards on
> the Internet the same way. Java Script was not invented by Sun, but
> by Netscape. Ever heard of JSS? Netscape doesn't follow W3C
> standards any better than MS.
>
> Every company tries to get an advantage. There is nothing illegal
> there. It becomes illegal when you try to prevent your competition
> from succeeding by designing your product to prevent theirs from
> working. To my knowledge, that has never been proved.
>

It also becomes illegal when you design your product to not work
unless the customer ALSO buys all the REST of his products from
you.

> >WHen it comes to applications,
> >I've yet to see any real "improvements" in MS Office, Front Page,
> >etc, in the last several releases. The only real changes were in
> >the way the products integrate with each other and the Internet.
> >That's all part of the MS OD-Application-Internet power grab.
>
> Because other companies stopped innovating also, so they have less
> reason to do so. Also, possibly because there is nothing more Office
> can do, but ...
>

Many would say there's nothing more that Windows can do either,
and question why upgrade at all, when your Win98/Win2K/Office 97/
Office 2K setups all work fine, and do what the users want to do.

>
> Wait. Microsoft had a contract that allowed them to add extensions.
> Many documents from Sun's president proved this - he was upset that
> Sun agreed to let them.
>
> The COURT ruled that MS had to remove Java support. It did not say
> they had to replace it with Sun's version until it realized the error
> it made.
>

Most of this of course is a moot issue since there's no real proof that Java
does anything any better than many of the other 4GL scripting languages.
And worse, since it ties you to the browser (if your developing "thin
client"
apps) there's a movement to push all the scripting back onto the server
(whether it's Java or something else) and only have the browsers displaying
pure HTML. Then it doesen't tie your app to specific web browser versions.

> I do
> agree that it is an issue, I just don't agree that MS is any worse
> than Sun, Netscape or AOL.

Then your not in accordance with current US law. The law says that
monopolies are illegal, and Microsoft is a monopoly by any reasonable
definition, and also now legally. So legally they are worse than those
other companies since none of them have been ruled a monopoly.

>
> >You need to look at the global issues and goals of MS to understand
> >how these "little" issues add up to the big picture of squashing
> >the competition through any means, legal or illegal.
>
> Agreed, and if it is illegal it must be stopped and punished, WIHTOUT
> punishing the consumer.

The current legal notion and not just in the US but in most developed
countries, is that monopolies punish the consumer by their very existence.
Microsoft did in fact try a rather novel approach to fighting the anti-trust
trial by claiming that the plantiffs needed to show that this was true, and
moreover that there was evidence that their practices did in fact, harm
the consumer. However ultimately they did lose the war, because the
plantiffs basically stated (properly IMHO) that this wasn't the issue.
Where Microsoft's arguments did in fact matter was during the penalty
phase of the trial. Since there really wasn't enough evidence that
Microsoft
was in fact harming consumers, they escaped without the judge ordering
the company to be split up.

However, this issue isn't going away, and I predict within another 10 years
that we are going to see another anti-trust trial get fired up again,
because
I don't see strong enough market trends to see Microsoft's claim on the
North American software market to be reduced to a non-monopoly
level. Until that happens, Microsoft is going to be vulnerable to another
anti-trust trial. All it would take is a change in administration in the
White House and you would see this start up all over again. And the
next time it does, they won't get away with a mere slap on the wrist,
because Justice will argue that they've been warned once already, and
had plenty of time to change their market practices so their competitors
could gain a healthy market share.

Ted

PS and for those spoilsports that want to know what all this has to do with
cars, you might ask yourself why are the automakers allowed to screw over
the repair shops by not standardizing on a single kind of engine computer
diagnostic interface? They are adding more and more software to cars
every year, and many of the same issues (software bloat, etc) are going to
become increasingly important. If you keep an eye on what is going on
in PC software, you may get a jump on what could happen to
engine computer software in the future.

took me a while to understand... my coment had nothing to do with Lloyd
Parker !

I like his new website - that's all ! I'm really jealous of the scenery he
has to play in.. some great pics.

Dave Milne, Scotland
'99 TJ 4.0 Sahara

"Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:UIkNa.1659$7e.440@fed1read07...
:
: "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
: > Like your new website.
: >
: >
: > Dave Milne, Scotland
: > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
: >
: > "Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > news:kkkNa.118383$hd6.97767@fed1read05...
: > : See the Geezer Jeep at
: > : http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
: > :
:
: what's wrong with his website? It looks pretty nice to me
:
:

Good post.


Dave Milne, Scotland
'99 TJ 4.0 Sahara

"Ted Mittelstaedt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
:
: "DTJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
: > On Thu, 03 Jul 2003 12:52:02 GMT, 'nuther Bob
: > <[email protected]> wrote:
: >
: > >>Here is where I take issue. I used to support MS no matter what. No
: > >>longer. However, the companies that claim MS is unfair are
: > >>complaining because MS is better at producing competitive products.
: > >>There is no monopoly, certainly no illegal one, unless you use your
: > >>clout in the market to reduce competition AND THEN use the reduced
: > >>competition to increase profits. >MS has never done this.
: > >
: > >I'm not talking about those complaints. MS ordered hardware vendors
: > >to sell their OS, and only their OS, on their systems. If you want(ed)
: > >to sell Windows on a PC you had to agree to install only windows.
: > >That was clearly illegal under US law. Also, although not quite as
: >
: > Not quite. Microsoft had agreements that required the vendor to pay
: > for Windows whether they installed it or not. Yes it was found to be
: > illegal. No, it was not clearly so.
: >
:
: I hope you can stand another "no, not exactly"
:
: Those agreements of Microsoft ONLY applied if you were a PC manufacturer
: that was purchasing "OEM" licenses at the cheap rate, of course. If you
: were
: including discounted "retail" licenses you could do what you want.
:
: Considering that the OEM license are about $12-20 and the retail licenses
: (in quantity) are about $50, and the PC manufacturers were tacking on
about
: $100
: extra for the license, I don't really feel that sympathetic to them.
:
: > Let's assume a fair price for Windows to a vendor is $50, and the
: > vendor sells 100 copies a year. They also sell 10 systems with Linux.
: > That comes out to $45.45 per system, or $50 per Windows system. If
: > Microsoft sells it to that vendor under the agreement that it is based
: > on systems sold (regardless of OS) for $40, the vendor wins. That is
: > not unfair or illegal, no matter what the sleeping judge found.
: >
:
: This is true if that is what was happening. But was WAS happening is that
: vendors (like Dell) that had a corporate policy of NEVER selling ANY
: systems with Linux preloaded, they got the Windows copies at the
: $40 price. Vendors like IBM/Compaq/HP that sold a few Linux preloaded
: systems got the Windows copies at $50.
:
: Microsoft was very arbitrary on the costs to the OEM of Windows. It
: was not based on volume or anything like that, it was polically based. It
: was no different than if a Negro-owned business that sold 500 tractors
: a year had to pay $10,000 per tractor, (less shipping) while a White-owned
: business
: that sold 50 tractors per year only had to pay $7,000 per tractor (less
: shipping) for
: the same tractor.
:
: > >crystal clear, is that MS as a vendor of both the application and
: > >OS was keeping things secret about the OS that they were taking
: > >advantage of in their applications - that is also illegal. The
: > >list goes on, those are two major issues.
: >
: > This is so bull**** though. It is impossible to "keep things secret"
: > in Windows. Any programmer with even a few days experience should
: > know how to view the exported functions in a DLL. It is simple to
: > look at what DLLs are being loaded. Since the Windows OS is mainly
: > DLLS, there is no possibility for MS to "hide" functions from anyone.
: >
:
: Once again this is a simplification of the issues.
:
: Yes it is not possible to "hide" functions. The problem is, that
Microsoft
: has
: no responsibility to maintain consistency with functions that are
: undocumented.
:
: So what was happening is that Microsoft Office would make use of an
: undocumented function, and a competitor like WordPerfect would make use of
: the same
: function. Then Microsoft would plan on changing that function in the next
: version of Windows, and they would inform their MS Office development
: team. So that team would stop or change using that function and release a
: new version
: of Office, as well as patches for the old versions of Office that
mitigated
: the
: change in the function.. Wordperfect would not of course be informed of
the
: pending
: change, and so then when the next version of Windows was released,
: the new version of Wordperfect would crash on it, while the new version of
: MS Office
: wouldn't, and most people would have patched their old versions of Office.
: And if people were doing in-place upgrades of Windows, the new version of
: Windows would search their hard drive for the old version of MS Office
: during installation and patch it if it wasn't patched.
:
: > Improvements? It sucks. Ever try to network XP with 98 where one
: > system has NetBeui installed? Can't do it! MS likes to say NetBeui
: > is not supported. So? It didn't magically stop working - until MS
: > MADE XP networking NOT WORK when one system has NetBeui and another
: > does not.
: >
:
: Very little supports NetBIOS Extended User Interface (NetBEUI) these
: days other than Windows and old IBM Lan Manager/OS2. The few
: networking devices like print servers are dropping support for it, and
: why not? NetBEUI isn't routable anyway.
:
: Windows 98SE has TCP/IP in it and supports Automatic IP Number Assignment
: (ie: negotiating IP numbers when a DHCP server is not present) as does
: XP, so this is not a serious problem. While it's facinating to me that
: they dropped support in XP as I didn't know that, I rather see this as an
: improvement. I've seen many corporate networks with unauthorized
: filesharing
: going on from people using NetBEUI that has caused problems for the
: system administrators.
:
: >
: > Interesting point, but Netscape was trying to force their standards on
: > the Internet the same way. Java Script was not invented by Sun, but
: > by Netscape. Ever heard of JSS? Netscape doesn't follow W3C
: > standards any better than MS.
: >
: > Every company tries to get an advantage. There is nothing illegal
: > there. It becomes illegal when you try to prevent your competition
: > from succeeding by designing your product to prevent theirs from
: > working. To my knowledge, that has never been proved.
: >
:
: It also becomes illegal when you design your product to not work
: unless the customer ALSO buys all the REST of his products from
: you.
:
: > >WHen it comes to applications,
: > >I've yet to see any real "improvements" in MS Office, Front Page,
: > >etc, in the last several releases. The only real changes were in
: > >the way the products integrate with each other and the Internet.
: > >That's all part of the MS OD-Application-Internet power grab.
: >
: > Because other companies stopped innovating also, so they have less
: > reason to do so. Also, possibly because there is nothing more Office
: > can do, but ...
: >
:
: Many would say there's nothing more that Windows can do either,
: and question why upgrade at all, when your Win98/Win2K/Office 97/
: Office 2K setups all work fine, and do what the users want to do.
:
: >
: > Wait. Microsoft had a contract that allowed them to add extensions.
: > Many documents from Sun's president proved this - he was upset that
: > Sun agreed to let them.
: >
: > The COURT ruled that MS had to remove Java support. It did not say
: > they had to replace it with Sun's version until it realized the error
: > it made.
: >
:
: Most of this of course is a moot issue since there's no real proof that
Java
: does anything any better than many of the other 4GL scripting languages.
: And worse, since it ties you to the browser (if your developing "thin
: client"
: apps) there's a movement to push all the scripting back onto the server
: (whether it's Java or something else) and only have the browsers
displaying
: pure HTML. Then it doesen't tie your app to specific web browser
versions.
:
: > I do
: > agree that it is an issue, I just don't agree that MS is any worse
: > than Sun, Netscape or AOL.
:
: Then your not in accordance with current US law. The law says that
: monopolies are illegal, and Microsoft is a monopoly by any reasonable
: definition, and also now legally. So legally they are worse than those
: other companies since none of them have been ruled a monopoly.
:
: >
: > >You need to look at the global issues and goals of MS to understand
: > >how these "little" issues add up to the big picture of squashing
: > >the competition through any means, legal or illegal.
: >
: > Agreed, and if it is illegal it must be stopped and punished, WIHTOUT
: > punishing the consumer.
:
: The current legal notion and not just in the US but in most developed
: countries, is that monopolies punish the consumer by their very existence.
: Microsoft did in fact try a rather novel approach to fighting the
anti-trust
: trial by claiming that the plantiffs needed to show that this was true,
and
: moreover that there was evidence that their practices did in fact, harm
: the consumer. However ultimately they did lose the war, because the
: plantiffs basically stated (properly IMHO) that this wasn't the issue.
: Where Microsoft's arguments did in fact matter was during the penalty
: phase of the trial. Since there really wasn't enough evidence that
: Microsoft
: was in fact harming consumers, they escaped without the judge ordering
: the company to be split up.
:
: However, this issue isn't going away, and I predict within another 10
years
: that we are going to see another anti-trust trial get fired up again,
: because
: I don't see strong enough market trends to see Microsoft's claim on the
: North American software market to be reduced to a non-monopoly
: level. Until that happens, Microsoft is going to be vulnerable to another
: anti-trust trial. All it would take is a change in administration in the
: White House and you would see this start up all over again. And the
: next time it does, they won't get away with a mere slap on the wrist,
: because Justice will argue that they've been warned once already, and
: had plenty of time to change their market practices so their competitors
: could gain a healthy market share.
:
: Ted
:
: PS and for those spoilsports that want to know what all this has to do
with
: cars, you might ask yourself why are the automakers allowed to screw over
: the repair shops by not standardizing on a single kind of engine computer
: diagnostic interface? They are adding more and more software to cars
: every year, and many of the same issues (software bloat, etc) are going to
: become increasingly important. If you keep an eye on what is going on
: in PC software, you may get a jump on what could happen to
: engine computer software in the future.
:
:

Whose website?

Jerry
--
Jerry Bransford
KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
The Zen Hotdog, make me one with everything!
See the Geezer Jeep at
http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/

"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> took me a while to understand... my coment had nothing to do with Lloyd
> Parker !
>
> I like his new website - that's all ! I'm really jealous of the scenery he
> has to play in.. some great pics.
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
>
> "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:UIkNa.1659$7e.440@fed1read07...
> :
> : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> : news:[email protected]...
> : > Like your new website.
> : >
> : >
> : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> : >
> : > "Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> : > news:kkkNa.118383$hd6.97767@fed1read05...
> : > : See the Geezer Jeep at
> : > : http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
> : > :
> :
> : what's wrong with his website? It looks pretty nice to me
> :
> :
>
>

my words aren't coming out straight today !

I like your (Jerry Bransford's) website and have just signed your guestbook.
Dave Milne, Scotland
'99 TJ 4.0 Sahara

"Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:U2lNa.118385$hd6.6218@fed1read05...
: Whose website?
:
: Jerry
: --
: Jerry Bransford
: KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
: The Zen Hotdog, make me one with everything!
: See the Geezer Jeep at
: http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
:
: "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
: > took me a while to understand... my coment had nothing to do with Lloyd
: > Parker !
: >
: > I like his new website - that's all ! I'm really jealous of the scenery
he
: > has to play in.. some great pics.
: >
: > Dave Milne, Scotland
: > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
: >
: > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > news:UIkNa.1659$7e.440@fed1read07...
: > :
: > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
: > : news:[email protected]...
: > : > Like your new website.
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
: > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
: > : >
: > : > "Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > : > news:kkkNa.118383$hd6.97767@fed1read05...
: > : > : See the Geezer Jeep at
: > : > : http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
: > : > :
: > :
: > : what's wrong with his website? It looks pretty nice to me
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:

"Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:U2lNa.118385$hd6.6218@fed1read05...
> Whose website?
>
> Jerry
> --
> Jerry Bransford
> KC6TAY, PP-ASEL
> The Zen Hotdog, make me one with everything!
> See the Geezer Jeep at
> http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
>
> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > took me a while to understand... my coment had nothing to do with Lloyd
> > Parker !
> >
> > I like his new website - that's all ! I'm really jealous of the scenery he
> > has to play in.. some great pics.
> >
> > Dave Milne, Scotland
> > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> >
> > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:UIkNa.1659$7e.440@fed1read07...
> > :
> > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> > : news:[email protected]...
> > : > Like your new website.
> > : >
> > : >
> > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> > : >
> > : > "Jerry Bransford" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > : > news:kkkNa.118383$hd6.97767@fed1read05...
> > : > : See the Geezer Jeep at
> > : > : http://members.cox.net/jerrypb/
> > : > :
> > :
> > : what's wrong with his website? It looks pretty nice to me
> > :

well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes no sense to me. People who live
in the West have the best places to four wheel and you have a nice looking rig; maybe some
people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting mastered yet.

Hey, lighten up a bit !

Dave Milne, Scotland
'99 TJ 4.0 Sahara

"Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ublNa.1663$7e.1282@fed1read07...
: well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes no sense to me.
People who live
: in the West have the best places to four wheel and you have a nice looking
rig; maybe some
: people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting mastered yet.

Jerry Bransford wrote:

>> Isn't it nice when Lloyd has a day off work. So he does not sit at his
>> work computer all day trashing Chrysler products.
>> He's the worst kind of Troll!!!!!!!
>> Barry A. Lee
>
> I quickly learned to ignore anything he says years ago.

Wait a minute, Lloyd Parker trashing Chrysler products? The Lloyd that I
know is an avid Chrysler supporter. Are we talking about the same Lloyd
Parker, the professor at Emory University?

Dai

--
Daigoro F. Toyama
1999 M3 Coupe

"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hey, lighten up a bit !
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
>
> "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ublNa.1663$7e.1282@fed1read07...
> : well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes no sense to me.
> People who live
> : in the West have the best places to four wheel and you have a nice looking
> rig; maybe some
> : people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting mastered yet.
>
>

if I were any lighter, a good wind would blow me east of the continental divide

Dave Milne, Scotland
'99 TJ 4.0 Sahara

"Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:epmNa.1671$7e.1164@fed1read07...
:
: "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
: > Hey, lighten up a bit !
: >
: > Dave Milne, Scotland
: > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
: >
: > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > news:ublNa.1663$7e.1282@fed1read07...
: > : well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes no sense to
me.
: > People who live
: > : in the West have the best places to four wheel and you have a nice
looking
: > rig; maybe some
: > : people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting mastered yet.
: >
: >
:
: if I were any lighter, a good wind would blow me east of the continental
divide
:
:

"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
>
> "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:epmNa.1671$7e.1164@fed1read07...
> :
> : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> : news:[email protected]...
> : > Hey, lighten up a bit !
> : >
> : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> : >
> : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> : > news:ublNa.1663$7e.1282@fed1read07...
> : > : well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes no sense to
> me.
> : > People who live
> : > : in the West have the best places to four wheel and you have a nice
> looking
> : > rig; maybe some
> : > : people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting mastered yet.
> : >
> : >
> :
> : if I were any lighter, a good wind would blow me east of the continental
> divide
> :
> :

Imagine waking up one morning and finding that you lived in Delaware and drove a
Saturn.... what would you call that?

old age ?


Dave Milne, Scotland
'99 TJ 4.0 Sahara

"Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:JvmNa.1675$7e.1413@fed1read07...
:
: "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
: >
: >
: > Dave Milne, Scotland
: > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
: >
: > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > news:epmNa.1671$7e.1164@fed1read07...
: > :
: > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
: > : news:[email protected]...
: > : > Hey, lighten up a bit !
: > : >
: > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
: > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
: > : >
: > : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > : > news:ublNa.1663$7e.1282@fed1read07...
: > : > : well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes no
sense to
: > me.
: > : > People who live
: > : > : in the West have the best places to four wheel and you have a nice
: > looking
: > : > rig; maybe some
: > : > : people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting mastered yet.
: > : >
: > : >
: > :
: > : if I were any lighter, a good wind would blow me east of the
continental
: > divide
: > :
: > :
:
: Imagine waking up one morning and finding that you lived in Delaware and
drove a
: Saturn.... what would you call that?
:
:

I was thinking more like "nightmare." I had one like that once; not in Delaware but still
somehow my truck disappeared and turned into a Camaro. I woke up in a sweat when I tried
going off road with it...


"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> old age ?
>
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
>
> "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:JvmNa.1675$7e.1413@fed1read07...
> :
> : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> : news:[email protected]...
> : >
> : >
> : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> : >
> : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> : > news:epmNa.1671$7e.1164@fed1read07...
> : > :
> : > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> : > : news:[email protected]...
> : > : > Hey, lighten up a bit !
> : > : >
> : > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> : > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> : > : >
> : > : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> : > : > news:ublNa.1663$7e.1282@fed1read07...
> : > : > : well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes no
> sense to
> : > me.
> : > : > People who live
> : > : > : in the West have the best places to four wheel and you have a nice
> : > looking
> : > : > rig; maybe some
> : > : > : people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting mastered yet.
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > :
> : > : if I were any lighter, a good wind would blow me east of the
> continental
> : > divide
> : > :
> : > :
> :
> : Imagine waking up one morning and finding that you lived in Delaware and
> drove a
> : Saturn.... what would you call that?
> :
> :
>
>

I'd like a Camaro actually (in addition to my Alfa and Jeep).

Dave Milne, Scotland
'99 TJ 4.0 Sahara

"Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:JImNa.1678$7e.1107@fed1read07...
: I was thinking more like "nightmare." I had one like that once; not in
Delaware but still
: somehow my truck disappeared and turned into a Camaro. I woke up in a
sweat when I tried
: going off road with it...
:
:
: "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
: news:[email protected]...
: > old age ?
: >
: >
: > Dave Milne, Scotland
: > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
: >
: > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > news:JvmNa.1675$7e.1413@fed1read07...
: > :
: > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
: > : news:[email protected]...
: > : >
: > : >
: > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
: > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
: > : >
: > : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > : > news:epmNa.1671$7e.1164@fed1read07...
: > : > :
: > : > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
: > : > : news:[email protected]...
: > : > : > Hey, lighten up a bit !
: > : > : >
: > : > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
: > : > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
: > : > : >
: > : > : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
: > : > : > news:ublNa.1663$7e.1282@fed1read07...
: > : > : > : well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes no
: > sense to
: > : > me.
: > : > : > People who live
: > : > : > : in the West have the best places to four wheel and you have a
nice
: > : > looking
: > : > : > rig; maybe some
: > : > : > : people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting mastered
yet.
: > : > : >
: > : > : >
: > : > :
: > : > : if I were any lighter, a good wind would blow me east of the
: > continental
: > : > divide
: > : > :
: > : > :
: > :
: > : Imagine waking up one morning and finding that you lived in Delaware
and
: > drove a
: > : Saturn.... what would you call that?
: > :
: > :
: >
: >
:
:

Not good for rock crawling :-(


"Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'd like a Camaro actually (in addition to my Alfa and Jeep).
>
> Dave Milne, Scotland
> '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
>
> "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:JImNa.1678$7e.1107@fed1read07...
> : I was thinking more like "nightmare." I had one like that once; not in
> Delaware but still
> : somehow my truck disappeared and turned into a Camaro. I woke up in a
> sweat when I tried
> : going off road with it...
> :
> :
> : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> : news:[email protected]...
> : > old age ?
> : >
> : >
> : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> : >
> : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> : > news:JvmNa.1675$7e.1413@fed1read07...
> : > :
> : > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> : > : news:[email protected]...
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> : > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> : > : >
> : > : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> : > : > news:epmNa.1671$7e.1164@fed1read07...
> : > : > :
> : > : > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> : > : > : news:[email protected]...
> : > : > : > Hey, lighten up a bit !
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> : > : > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> : > : > : > news:ublNa.1663$7e.1282@fed1read07...
> : > : > : > : well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes no
> : > sense to
> : > : > me.
> : > : > : > People who live
> : > : > : > : in the West have the best places to four wheel and you have a
> nice
> : > : > looking
> : > : > : > rig; maybe some
> : > : > : > : people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting mastered
> yet.
> : > : > : >
> : > : > : >
> : > : > :
> : > : > : if I were any lighter, a good wind would blow me east of the
> : > continental
> : > : > divide
> : > : > :
> : > : > :
> : > :
> : > : Imagine waking up one morning and finding that you lived in Delaware
> and
> : > drove a
> : > : Saturn.... what would you call that?
> : > :
> : > :
> : >
> : >
> :
> :
>
>

No, but I'm only about 2 1/2 hours from paragon adventure park. They have
all the rocks I can handle. I'm also about 1 1/2 hours from the NJ pine
barrens. All the sand, water, and mud I could want. All in all, it's not a
bad spot.


"Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:9KnNa.1682$7e.1279@fed1read07...
> Not good for rock crawling :-(
>
>
> "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I'd like a Camaro actually (in addition to my Alfa and Jeep).
> >
> > Dave Milne, Scotland
> > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> >
> > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:JImNa.1678$7e.1107@fed1read07...
> > : I was thinking more like "nightmare." I had one like that once; not in
> > Delaware but still
> > : somehow my truck disappeared and turned into a Camaro. I woke up in a
> > sweat when I tried
> > : going off road with it...
> > :
> > :
> > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> > : news:[email protected]...
> > : > old age ?
> > : >
> > : >
> > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> > : >
> > : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > : > news:JvmNa.1675$7e.1413@fed1read07...
> > : > :
> > : > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> > : > : news:[email protected]...
> > : > : >
> > : > : >
> > : > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> > : > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> > : > : >
> > : > : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > : > : > news:epmNa.1671$7e.1164@fed1read07...
> > : > : > :
> > : > : > : "Dave Milne" <jeep@_nospam_milne.info> wrote in message
> > : > : > : news:[email protected]...
> > : > : > : > Hey, lighten up a bit !
> > : > : > : >
> > : > : > : > Dave Milne, Scotland
> > : > : > : > '99 TJ 4.0 Sahara
> > : > : > : >
> > : > : > : > "Sebastian Cabot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > : > : > : > news:ublNa.1663$7e.1282@fed1read07...
> > : > : > : > : well I thought the comment was directed at you which makes
no
> > : > sense to
> > : > : > me.
> > : > : > : > People who live
> > : > : > : > : in the West have the best places to four wheel and you
have a
> > nice
> > : > : > looking
> > : > : > : > rig; maybe some
> > : > : > : > : people don't have the tricky Usenet art of quoting
mastered
> > yet.
> > : > : > : >
> > : > : > : >
> > : > : > :
> > : > : > : if I were any lighter, a good wind would blow me east of the
> > : > continental
> > : > : > divide
> > : > : > :
> > : > : > :
> > : > :
> > : > : Imagine waking up one morning and finding that you lived in
Delaware
> > and
> > : > drove a
> > : > : Saturn.... what would you call that?
> > : > :
> > : > :
> > : >
> > : >
> > :
> > :
> >
> >
>
>