Jatco auto box. complete fluid change.

I picked up another freelander about 2 months ago, 2003 TD4 auto, in fantastic nick but with 170000 miles on the clock. Test run and everything was good, exept for a slight "kick" starting off from 1st to 2nd, hardly noticable really, but I only run autos and so noticed it, while someone else might not have. Anyway drove it home (120 miles) no problem at all. Over the next few weeks however I had a couple of harsh gearchanges getting progressively worse, the last one resulted in F4!, so decided to check the oil level in the box, 1.2 Ltrs overfilled!! Drain box and refill (just over 3.5 Ltrs used). Considering that the box holds 8 Ltrs I was not satisfied with this, and so made some inquiries ending with the technicians at Miller Oils and came up with this: To change the fluid totally (8 Ltrs)
Get a fitting to replace the the connection to the fluid cooler, I got one from the scrappy, but just as easy from a hydraulics co. piece of clear PVC tubing onto this.
Gearbox up to operating temp.
Car up on ramps to give working room underneath, drain fluid.
Refill with 4 Ltrs of new fluid.
Take out fluid cooler connection on gearbox (top one is flow) replace with fitting you have made, run pipe into empty 5 litre plastic container.
Take out return connection on gearbox, drop it into draining container and you can "blow" the old fluid out of the cooler, replace return pipe into gearbox.
Start engine and run until you have 3.5-4 Ltrs of fluid in the container, stop engine.
Remove home made fitting and replace cooler flow pipe to gearbox.
Top up gearbox with 3 Ltrs of new fluid.
Start engine, foot on brake and cycle gear lever from Park through to 2 and back,
remove level plug and add fluid until it runs out of level plug, replace plug, stop engine.
Replace any bits that you have removed, take car off ramps, Job done! complete fluid change!!
The car has now completed more than 1000 miles and the gearbox is as smooth as silk, I was in the process of sourcing solenoids to replace, but decided to try this first, glad I did!
The fluid I used is Millermatic ATF SP111-WS which is a higher spec than the Landrover fluid, plus it is way cheaper.
We are driving to Moscow in about 5 weeks time and have decided that the trip will be made with this vehicle, just over 5000 miles there and back with some running about while we are there, so will soon see if my faith is justified!!
Sorry there are no photos, useless at taking them, and even worse at uploading them.

The jatco doesn't need a full fluid change. If you do want a full change then the gibbons method is easier. Available by searching online. Jjamesmartin on hre has advised in the past a full change isn't needed and can cause harm as the fluid contains cleaners. I guess it's down the the owners choice. 170k is one of the higher mileages we see on ere. Nice to see the jatco can do it.
Welcome to the forum.

Sokol said:

I picked up another freelander about 2 months ago, 2003 TD4 auto, in fantastic nick but with 170000 miles on the clock. Test run and everything was good, exept for a slight "kick" starting off from 1st to 2nd, hardly noticable really, but I only run autos and so noticed it, while someone else might not have. Anyway drove it home (120 miles) no problem at all. Over the next few weeks however I had a couple of harsh gearchanges getting progressively worse, the last one resulted in F4!, so decided to check the oil level in the box, 1.2 Ltrs overfilled!! Drain box and refill (just over 3.5 Ltrs used). Considering that the box holds 8 Ltrs I was not satisfied with this, and so made some inquiries ending with the technicians at Miller Oils and came up with this: To change the fluid totally (8 Ltrs)
Get a fitting to replace the the connection to the fluid cooler, I got one from the scrappy, but just as easy from a hydraulics co. piece of clear PVC tubing onto this.
Gearbox up to operating temp.
Car up on ramps to give working room underneath, drain fluid.
Refill with 4 Ltrs of new fluid.
Take out fluid cooler connection on gearbox (top one is flow) replace with fitting you have made, run pipe into empty 5 litre plastic container.
Take out return connection on gearbox, drop it into draining container and you can "blow" the old fluid out of the cooler, replace return pipe into gearbox.
Start engine and run until you have 3.5-4 Ltrs of fluid in the container, stop engine.
Remove home made fitting and replace cooler flow pipe to gearbox.
Top up gearbox with 3 Ltrs of new fluid.
Start engine, foot on brake and cycle gear lever from Park through to 2 and back,
remove level plug and add fluid until it runs out of level plug, replace plug, stop engine.
Replace any bits that you have removed, take car off ramps, Job done! complete fluid change!!
The car has now completed more than 1000 miles and the gearbox is as smooth as silk, I was in the process of sourcing solenoids to replace, but decided to try this first, glad I did!
The fluid I used is Millermatic ATF SP111-WS which is a higher spec than the Landrover fluid, plus it is way cheaper.
We are driving to Moscow in about 5 weeks time and have decided that the trip will be made with this vehicle, just over 5000 miles there and back with some running about while we are there, so will soon see if my faith is justified!!
Sorry there are no photos, useless at taking them, and even worse at uploading them.

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hi mate

funny enough I have also done a fairly recent oil change with the millers ATF fluid and personally found it the smoothest gear change etc , did use the genuine ATF fluid before trying the millers

it has now been I think about 4 months or so and has continued to change gear very smoothly , quieter and also at the lights whilst in gear doesn't surge forward like it useto

can highly recommend and like u say a lot cheaper than the oem oil

would use it again , mines on nearly 180,000 miles and transformed the gearbox

is a joy to drive through country lanes as it changes up and down the box

got a very slight flat spot around 50 mph but it's not a sports car so with the synergy box engaged that disappears

Hippo said:

The jatco doesn't need a full fluid change. If you do want a full change then the gibbons method is easier. Available by searching online. Jjamesmartin on hre has advised in the past a full change isn't needed and can cause harm as the fluid contains cleaners. I guess it's down the the owners choice. 170k is one of the higher mileages we see on ere. Nice to see the jatco can do it.
Welcome to the forum.

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Thanks for the welcome, but sorry mate, cannot agree with you, if the box did not need a complete change why change any of it? ( the new fluid contains cleaners probably more efficient than the old fluid) all you do is contaminate good fluid. If this was the case you would only need to top up if needed.
The difference in performance tells me that it is absolutely neccesary to do a complete change ( it seems that gstuart's experience would confirm this). As to the method, you pays your money and takes your chance! Besides this freelander we run 2 Saab 93 autos and I use the same fluid in these (Aisin warner box) with the same results.

Sokol said:

Thanks for the welcome, but sorry mate, cannot agree with you, if the box did not need a complete change why change any of it? ( the new fluid contains cleaners probably more efficient than the old fluid) all you do is contaminate good fluid. If this was the case you would only need to top up if needed.
The difference in performance tells me that it is absolutely neccesary to do a complete change ( it seems that gstuart's experience would confirm this). As to the method, you pays your money and takes your chance! Besides this freelander we run 2 Saab 93 autos and I use the same fluid in these (Aisin warner box) with the same results.

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Jatco only request a partual change. LR follow this. The filter is fitted for life, unless you remove the Jatco and take it apart to replace. Partial adds some new fluid but doesn't replace all. The fluid contains cleaners and JM said too much cleaning in one go will disturb stuff and has in the past caused solenoid issues. Sticking more possible etc. A partial change is good enough. If more is required then a partial change with some miles inbetween like 500 to give the fluid a good wash round is a good idea. A partial change will have the same effect of sudden improvement in gear change smoothness etc as you have seen. A partial change performs magic on the Jatco, clearing all sorts of issues. The LR fluid is £67 for 20L on eb ay which is what I use. There are several fluids available depending on country as some won't import due to chemical content. I've messed about with successive fluid changes to find faults and the results didn't changed when sending samples oft to the oil lab for content analysis. I agree a full change would wipe out damaged oil with a high wear content of brake band sediment etc but excessive wear which puts it there would only continue. In that situation the Jatco would need opened and repaired to resolve. But we do what we feel is best for our hippo's and can probably put logic in either direction to assist theory. At least yer didn't buy a rusty ole tratter.

on my own personel experiance I changed all of my oil over a period of time , on the first change I let it run for a few 100 miles then did it again, I know u use more oil this way but was advised by some jatco gearbox specialists not to change the oil in one go but gradually

don't know why, maybe it's for the new oil which has the cleaners in it to get round the gearbox better over time

of course doing it this way never gets every bit of the old oil out

suppose like when I useto flush out central heating systems, would put the cleaner in and allow it a good few days to get into every nook and cranny then flush it out

the replacement of the oil within the jatco gearboxes has been covered in discussion over a good number of years , where weve tried all different oils, methods etc ,

also found if I went up and down hills to get as many gear changes in as possible helped , so that when I done another oil change it had been right round the gearbox

found the millers to be excellent and speaking to many people they also said to do it gradually, maybe it's a temperamental gearbox but by doing it over time found it worked a treat

more importantly as long as ur gearbox is working better at the end of the day that's the best outcome

when mine started to slip I first followed hippos solenoid ohms reading chart then went on from there

done the oil and was lucky enough to cure the problem , for some reason a really good oil change seems to do wonders on these jatco boxes, not every time but seems a good success rate

however another reason is where garages etc don't do the oil changes correctly, either under or overfilling the boxes, which of course can lead to catastrophic damage

when a gearbox starts to jump into gear can be just a question where there's a leak on the box and caused the oil level to drop too much and thus causing the symptoms , but of course can mean a lot of other things

actually bought two jatco books that tell u everything from the last nut and bolt, bought them from a specialist jatco company , visited them personally and he showed me these boxes in bits and what what normally goes on them , spent a good couple of hours chatting to him

I personally change my oils each and every year , know it's not required and a bit of an overkill as I only cover about 3,000 miles per year , I replace the engine, gearbox, ird, rear diff oils

my own thoughts on this regarding why they don't recommend a complete oil change in one go but over several oil replacement , could there be a is risk of air getting into the torque converter and possibly doing damage and that's why they recommend a partial oil change, at the end of the day I'm not knowledgable enough with regards to these boxes , but only what many of us have done and experimented on different methods

hope at the end of the day yours is running well and have a trouble free motoring and welcome to the mad house, lol

Changing gear means different solenoids get used. This helps flush the fluid around the different areas. Helps with sticking solenoids but it depends on how/why they're sticking. If worn to the extent they're sticking then they would need changed.

Hippo said:

Changing gear means different solenoids get used. This helps flush the fluid around the different areas. Helps with sticking solenoids but it depends on how/why they're sticking. If worn to the extent they're sticking then they would need changed.

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I think at first when the gears were rough I did assume the solonoids were at fault , however thks to ur guidance went through all the ohms readings to establish if they were within range

as soon as I done the several oil changes it was like a different gearbox, even now I can't feel the gear changes as there so smooth, can hear some of them change but also think that possibly by me giving it a good run and changing the oils every time helped clear any crap out and put nice new oil onto them

but know a few of us have now gone into these gearboxes in great depth , I do know understand considerably more than I use to but that's thks to ur good self and others

not sure if I'm able to contribute anything though with regards to these boxes , but feel far more confident than I useto that's for sure

gstuart said:

I think at first when the gears were rough I did assume the solonoids were at fault , however thks to ur guidance went through all the ohms readings to establish if they were within range

as soon as I done the several oil changes it was like a different gearbox, even now I can't feel the gear changes as there so smooth, can hear some of them change but also think that possibly by me giving it a good run and changing the oils every time helped clear any crap out and put nice new oil onto them

but know a few of us have now gone into these gearboxes in great depth , I do know understand considerably more than I use to but that's thks to ur good self and others

not sure if I'm able to contribute anything though with regards to these boxes , but feel far more confident than I useto that's for sure

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I think with most things we do we learn as we move forward in time. Knowledge is picked up from multiple sources and we learn from it. The resistance check and level check idea's came from my local main dealer. That's their method of "first approach" when looking at auto's. Gives them a datum to work from. Naturally it's not needed if there's a crack in the auto case etc. As a diagnostic it's good for us too.

Hippo said:

I think with most things we do we learn as we move forward in time. Knowledge is picked up from multiple sources and we learn from it. The resistance check and level check idea's came from my local main dealer. That's their method of "first approach" when looking at auto's. Gives them a datum to work from. Naturally it's not needed if there's a crack in the auto case etc. As a diagnostic it's good for us too.

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ur spot on as I've now owned my hippo for 5 years now and to think how much knowledge I have now in compassion to when I bought it is quiet a difference

is nice of many members on here to out up information for us to share and snippets then get added along the way

always nice when people who have had a problem and then reports back on here and give there findings and solutions

also including the ideas that come back in trying different methods and have excellent results , like a eureka moment

Had a partial change on mine probably about 2 years ago, improved, but gradually got worse. Had the 2-4 solenoid changes a while latter and things improved, but it gradually got worse again. Pulled fuse 4 which gave a very temporary improvement, so bit the proverbial and had another change. Box is now the smoothest it has ever been on 90k.

The fuse 4 removal thing to clear the computer is a bit of a myth. The auto's computer on a FL1 looses power when the ignition is oft, as it switches oft the relay power feed to the computer.

Some Jatco's need a second oil change to get them back to being happy. I guess it's down to how lucky you are that the new oil is able to flush/clean the problem.

I remember the difference from my auto being low, to having the level put right. Felt like they'd swopped my car for a newun. Shame it only lasted 2 weeks until it leaked out. If only they had said it had a leak which was why it was low...

Can anyone help, I have F-4 on the dash on my auto and will only go into 1st or 2nd, I changed the oil took it out for a run went real smooth left it overnight and took it out in the morning and back to what it was I have the valve body out at the moment and all ohm readings on solenoids are good, where to go from here?? Was going to take out the box but do I have to take out the engine too?

martin mckay said:

Can anyone help, I have F-4 on the dash on my auto and will only go into 1st or 2nd, I changed the oil took it out for a run went real smooth left it overnight and took it out in the morning and back to what it was I have the valve body out at the moment and all ohm readings on solenoids are good, where to go from here?? Was going to take out the box but do I have to take out the engine too?

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You need to make sure the barrel connector in the auto's wiring harness is tight and secure. Measure resistances down the harness to make sure the harness is ok. Check the harness for cable damage. Level check needs to be done correclty, as per on here.

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/jatco-automatic-gearbox.69336/page-3

You can take the gearbox out by tilting the engine but it's betterer to do the easier stuff first.
Lots of freds on ere covering F4 flashing and what we did to resolve/investigate.

Cheers I will try and looks for other threads but I must admit I am having trouble navigating

use goo gle to seach with "landyzone freelander jatco f4 flashing" as the search text

Cheers will do

Been reading this one with some interest, differing opinions and all.
I used to spend a lot of times on the BMW forums as I used to run classic E34 5 series - went through about 5 in the end before I got bored of setting £20 notes on fire.

Auto boxes cause some of the biggest arguments on forums, as half the crowd always seems to think witchcraft is involved.

It was especially bad over at BMW as they seal their gearboxes "for life" which for them means if it gets 1 day outside of warranty, it's a victory.
Caused an epic riot when someone dug up the data sheet on the ZF auto boxes that said explicitly, in red, DO NOT SEAL GEARBOX FOR LIFE.

Is it the same on Freelanders or do they actually schedule changes?

Auto boxes are simple beasts, ATF detergent has a useful life. Once you get past 60-80k you start building up a glaze and then if you change fluids you have a *slight* risk that it'll peel glaze off of a surface and get jammed in a valve, burning your clutches out and adding to the ridiculous bmw gearbox failure rate.

The flip side of this is that the oil does start to change viscosity after a while, but, the finger in the air vague calculation was "if it's done over 100k, leave the oil alone till the box explodes."

Whoever came up with the idea of removing regular transmission fluid changes needs to be taken out and shot. Multiple times.

B34R said:

Been reading this one with some interest, differing opinions and all.
I used to spend a lot of times on the BMW forums as I used to run classic E34 5 series - went through about 5 in the end before I got bored of setting £20 notes on fire.

Auto boxes cause some of the biggest arguments on forums, as half the crowd always seems to think witchcraft is involved.

It was especially bad over at BMW as they seal their gearboxes "for life" which for them means if it gets 1 day outside of warranty, it's a victory.
Caused an epic riot when someone dug up the data sheet on the ZF auto boxes that said explicitly, in red, DO NOT SEAL GEARBOX FOR LIFE.

Is it the same on Freelanders or do they actually schedule changes?

Auto boxes are simple beasts, ATF detergent has a useful life. Once you get past 60-80k you start building up a glaze and then if you change fluids you have a *slight* risk that it'll peel glaze off of a surface and get jammed in a valve, burning your clutches out and adding to the ridiculous bmw gearbox failure rate.

The flip side of this is that the oil does start to change viscosity after a while, but, the finger in the air vague calculation was "if it's done over 100k, leave the oil alone till the box explodes."

Whoever came up with the idea of removing regular transmission fluid changes needs to be taken out and shot. Multiple times.

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In list form:
The FL1 jatco doesn't have a dip stick, it has a level plug which is at the bottom. It's a tube rising from the filler hole at the bottom. When the oil is at the tiop of the tube with the engine running, then the level is said to be correct.
Service fuild change is about 42% at 60k miles on LR list.
Fluid change has been known to solve all sorts of problems like irregular gear shift etc.
Standard fault finding starts with resistance check and level check.
What looks like a level plug on the rear, is NOT a level plug. It holds the band for reverse gear in place. If removed the band comes oft and you loose reverse gear. Normal fix is to open up the auto, but 1 person had had it corrected with wire through a hole drilled in the nut. I will have a go at doing this on my spare auto.
Jatco is generally reliable. We have regular peeps who turn up having set the level wrong.
Loss of drive is normally a cracked piston which needs the auto opened up to fix.
Brown burnt oil is the clutches wearing too much.
Solinoids are reasonably ok to get to, with some faffing about.
Number of people find garages don't set the level correct or undo the wrong bolt.
LR dealer fuild is expensive (cheaper on eb ay in 20L volume) so peeps have used other stuff. Depends whats available in the country yer in. LR stuff is said to be old and out of date, with others being a betterer spec. Don't know of the spec's or what they mean or if LR stuff was ever updated, so don't really care. My auto replacement cost £2200 fitted so it's not worth the risk. You can get it done for £1650 fitted depending on location.
Most peeps don't see problems until 100k miles onwards.
Some jatco's have hit 200k miles.

[QUOTE="gstuart, post: 3526822, member: 46096"]hi mate
funny enough I have also done a fairly recent oil change with the millers ATF fluid and personally found it the smoothest gear change etc , did use the genuine ATF fluid before trying the millers it has now been I think about 4 months or so and has continued to change gear very smoothly , quieter and also at the lights whilst in gear doesn't surge forward like it use to can highly recommend and like u say a lot cheaper than the oem oilwould use it again , mines on nearly 180,000 miles and transformed the gearboxis a joy to drive through country lanes as it changes up and down the box
got a very slight flat spot around 50 mph but it's not a sports car so with the synergy box engaged that disappears[/QUOTE]

Does anyone know if this is a common issue, as my td4 auto commercial has a flat spot at 50 mph, had put mine down to cruising at 50mph due to speed limit on commute to work.