Incredibly hard-to-remove lugnuts

SBlackfoot wrote:

>>>I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand
>>>thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came
>>>loose, the forward motion of the vehicle would be more likely to keep
>>>the nut from working its way off the stud.
>>>
>>>Larry
>>>
>>
>>Yes. It's actually got a more complicated explanation than that, but
>>you got the sides correct. Studebaker did the same thing, although they
>>quit sometime between '56 and '62. Chrysler was using LH thread as late
>>as 1969 and maybe later (that's just the newest MoPar I've worked on.)
>
>
>
>
> Shouldn't the left hand threads be on the right side, so they'd tend to
> tighen upon themselves with forward motion? I'm thinking if the nut was
> loose, and the wheel suddenly started spinning forward, a right hand thread
> on the right side would tend to spin off, correct? Or is this where that
> complicated explanation comes into play? ;o)
>
>

I recall my high school physics teacher used the LH lug nuts as an
example in class, *his* explanation for it actually had to do with
precession and not simply rotation of the wheel. I have to admit I
don't remember it all and a quick web search is turning up dry.

I think I was one of the few people in the class that had ever seen a
left hand threaded lug nut judging by the blank stares from most of the
students

nate

--
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Try the stripped nut remover,U can probly get one at NAPA E-mail me
back@ Gizmeau@web tv .net

I have a factory-made utility trailer sold through Sears in 1947, and the
lugs on both sides are left-handed threads.


On Sun, 26 Sep 2004, Ken McNairn wrote:

>
> Chrysler used left hand threads on one side of the vehicle and right hand
> threads on the other side. The mind grows dimmer, though, and I can't remember
> which side was which.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" wrote:
>
>> Larry wrote:
>>>
>>> Here's a thought. Any possibility it's a left-hand thread? If it is a
>>> homemade trailer, and the builder happened to use a wheel/axle from, for
>>> example, a 50's Chrysler product, you may be tightening it further when
>>> you think you're loosening it.
>>
>> Didn't the old Chrysler products have an "L" stamped on the end of the lugs?
>>
>> George Patterson
>> If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
>> been looking for it.
>
>

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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 10:58:25 -0400, Lee Ayrton <[email protected]> wrote:

> I have a factory-made utility trailer sold through Sears in 1947, and the
> lugs on both sides are left-handed threads.

Wow, that's strange!


~~R.Banks

Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> SBlackfoot wrote:
>
> >>>I *think* it was right-hand thread on the right side, and left-hand
> >>>thread on left side. The theory, as I recall, was that if a lug nut came
> >>>loose, the forward motion of the vehicle would be more likely to keep
> >>>the nut from working its way off the stud.
> >>>
> >>>Larry
> >>>
> >>
> >>Yes. It's actually got a more complicated explanation than that, but
> >>you got the sides correct. Studebaker did the same thing, although they
> >>quit sometime between '56 and '62. Chrysler was using LH thread as late
> >>as 1969 and maybe later (that's just the newest MoPar I've worked on.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Shouldn't the left hand threads be on the right side, so they'd tend to
> > tighen upon themselves with forward motion? I'm thinking if the nut was
> > loose, and the wheel suddenly started spinning forward, a right hand thread
> > on the right side would tend to spin off, correct? Or is this where that
> > complicated explanation comes into play? ;o)
> >
> >
>
> I recall my high school physics teacher used the LH lug nuts as an
> example in class, *his* explanation for it actually had to do with
> precession and not simply rotation of the wheel. I have to admit I
> don't remember it all and a quick web search is turning up dry.
>
> I think I was one of the few people in the class that had ever seen a
> left hand threaded lug nut judging by the blank stares from most of the
> students
>
> nate

As the left wheel turns as the vehicle moves forward, the load on
the nut revolves in the opposite direction. If the nut is a bit loose,
the nut seat in the wheel will "walk" around the nut in this opposite
direction and roll the nut to the left and tighten it.
If you use a ring of some sort and a round object fitting
loosely inside it, you can see the effect easily enough.
I'm restoring a '51 International Harvester pickup, and it had
LH threads on the left-side studs. Found that out after a lot of
sweating, long bars and bent wrenches. Stupid, since I used to sell
wheel and brake parts in the '70s and knew all about this stuff but
had forgotten. Maybe I remembered that "only" Chrysler and some
trailer manufacturers did it, besides most heavy trucks. At any rate,
it will have all RH studs and nuts when it's done.
LH nuts have little notches in the corners where the flats meet.

Dan

> As the left wheel turns as the vehicle moves forward, the load on
> the nut revolves in the opposite direction. If the nut is a bit loose,
> the nut seat in the wheel will "walk" around the nut in this opposite
> direction and roll the nut to the left and tighten it.

Right.


> I'm restoring a '51 International Harvester pickup, and it had
> LH threads on the left-side studs.

So they'd tend to spin off if they were loose... right? If you were holding
the nut still and rolled a left side tire forward, a right hand thread would
tighten and a left hand thread would loosen.

Of course upon decelleration the opposite would be true, maybe that is the
scenario the manufacturers originally had in mind.

"SBlackfoot" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > As the left wheel turns as the vehicle moves forward, the load on
> > the nut revolves in the opposite direction. If the nut is a bit loose,
> > the nut seat in the wheel will "walk" around the nut in this opposite
> > direction and roll the nut to the left and tighten it.
>
> Right.
>
>
> > I'm restoring a '51 International Harvester pickup, and it had
> > LH threads on the left-side studs.
>
> So they'd tend to spin off if they were loose... right? If you were holding
> the nut still and rolled a left side tire forward, a right hand thread would
> tighten and a left hand thread would loosen.
>
> Of course upon decelleration the opposite would be true, maybe that is the
> scenario the manufacturers originally had in mind.

That effect would have to rely on the inertia of the nut, and a
nut has so little rotational inertia at vehicle speeds as to be
negligible.
No, the effect has to do with the wheel's load on the nut
rotating in the direction opposite the wheels' rotation, and the
looseness of the nut resulting in a slightly eccentric movement of the
nut seat in the wheel causing nut rotation in the tightening
direction. It's a lot more complicated than what meets the eye.
Somewhere on the net should be an animation of the effect.

Dan

"Dan Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "SBlackfoot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > > As the left wheel turns as the vehicle moves forward, the
load on
> > > the nut revolves in the opposite direction. If the nut is a bit
loose,
> > > the nut seat in the wheel will "walk" around the nut in this
opposite
> > > direction and roll the nut to the left and tighten it.
> >
> > Right.
> >
> >
> > > I'm restoring a '51 International Harvester pickup, and it
had
> > > LH threads on the left-side studs.
> >
> > So they'd tend to spin off if they were loose... right? If you were
holding
> > the nut still and rolled a left side tire forward, a right hand
thread would
> > tighten and a left hand thread would loosen.
> >
> > Of course upon decelleration the opposite would be true, maybe that
is the
> > scenario the manufacturers originally had in mind.
>
> That effect would have to rely on the inertia of the nut, and a
> nut has so little rotational inertia at vehicle speeds as to be
> negligible.
> No, the effect has to do with the wheel's load on the nut
> rotating in the direction opposite the wheels' rotation, and the
> looseness of the nut resulting in a slightly eccentric movement of the
> nut seat in the wheel causing nut rotation in the tightening
> direction. It's a lot more complicated than what meets the eye.
> Somewhere on the net should be an animation of the effect.
>
> Dan

So you think that a lug nut that is a "bit" loose with tighten
itself.....
RIGHT... Never seen it but I have seen the entire wheel destroyed and
had to replace all the studs and nuts because one was a "bit" loose and
it allowed enough wheel flex that it damaged the rest.
Of course if your theory is correct then speed should also have an
effect, HMMM Yep NASCAR guys who don't get the lugs tight never have a
problem.... YEAH RIGHT.





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"Steve W." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Dan Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "SBlackfoot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > > As the left wheel turns as the vehicle moves forward, the
> load on
> > > > the nut revolves in the opposite direction. If the nut is a bit
> loose,
> > > > the nut seat in the wheel will "walk" around the nut in this
> opposite
> > > > direction and roll the nut to the left and tighten it.
> > >
> > > Right.
> > >
> > >
> > > > I'm restoring a '51 International Harvester pickup, and it
> had
> > > > LH threads on the left-side studs.
> > >
> > > So they'd tend to spin off if they were loose... right? If you were
> holding
> > > the nut still and rolled a left side tire forward, a right hand
> thread would
> > > tighten and a left hand thread would loosen.
> > >
> > > Of course upon decelleration the opposite would be true, maybe that
> is the
> > > scenario the manufacturers originally had in mind.
> >
> > That effect would have to rely on the inertia of the nut, and a
> > nut has so little rotational inertia at vehicle speeds as to be
> > negligible.
> > No, the effect has to do with the wheel's load on the nut
> > rotating in the direction opposite the wheels' rotation, and the
> > looseness of the nut resulting in a slightly eccentric movement of the
> > nut seat in the wheel causing nut rotation in the tightening
> > direction. It's a lot more complicated than what meets the eye.
> > Somewhere on the net should be an animation of the effect.
> >
> > Dan
>
> So you think that a lug nut that is a "bit" loose with tighten
> itself.....
> RIGHT... Never seen it but I have seen the entire wheel destroyed and
> had to replace all the studs and nuts because one was a "bit" loose and
> it allowed enough wheel flex that it damaged the rest.
> Of course if your theory is correct then speed should also have an
> effect, HMMM Yep NASCAR guys who don't get the lugs tight never have a
> problem.... YEAH RIGHT.


I said a BIT loose. We're talking lower nut torque here, not slop.
The thread direction will determine whether the nut tends to come off
or stay put. And we're not talking NASCAR nuts, either, that undergo
huge torques and sideloadings. I have seen destroyed wheels, too; I
spent 9 years selling new hubs, wheels, studs, nuts for everything
from utility trailers to earthmoving equipment and 250-ton mine
trucks. Steel and aluminum wheels, Budd and Dayton and Motor Wheel
types, custom auto wheels, and all the hardware from the spindle and
bearings on out. I learned a few things about this stuff from the
hub/wheel/stud/nut manufacturers. Things like the LH nut theory, and
about overtorquing of nuts being as bad as undertorquing, since the
stud is strained and loses its elasticity, and if there's any wheel
distortion the nut will come loose. Things aren't always what they
seem. The tire shops are finally using torque wrenches to tighten the
nuts.
That said, we have to point out that the effect of LH nuts on
cars must have been not worth the cost, because we don't see LH nuts
on cars anymore that I know of. Just on large trucks now. I do know
that we sold a lot of left-hand hardware to tire shops whose green
tire jockeys didn't know about such stuff and busted it off.

Dan

On 21 Oct 2004 07:47:10 -0700, [email protected] (Dan Thomas) wrote:

> because we don't see LH nuts on cars anymore that I know of. Just on large trucks now.

Interesting. I wasn't aware that they used them anywhere anymore.


~~R.Banks

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 18:26:15 GMT, Robin Banks
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 21 Oct 2004 07:47:10 -0700, [email protected] (Dan Thomas) wrote:
>
>> because we don't see LH nuts on cars anymore that I know of. Just on large trucks now.
>
>Interesting. I wasn't aware that they used them anywhere anymore.
>
I see the point on a car like mine with a single spinner on each
wheel. Far less if you have 4, 5 or whatever wheel nuts per wheel.

It is not so much that it will tighten if it is loose, but that, with
the wrong thread, it would loosen if it were tight.

--
P